Topic: Healthcare Bill: Interesting Result

[Caaveman82]

Traveler, a wind turbine that runs for 24 hours makes enough energy to power the average home for three months. Believe it.

The CB's are the least of the problem. I don't know a single soccer mom that takes their giant 4x4 land yacht off road.

Also, what quality of life will the future generations have when there are no more fossil fuels? We have the technology to go 100% green, just not the resources. There is a big difference.

Also we are not China, so don't worry about them. Just because some one else is worse doesn't releave us of our actions. That's like a warlord in Africa who slays villages of people to dig up diamonds for them saying "The U.S. has had way more collateral damage than me, look at them first!"

[Laminar]

The CB's are the least of the problem. I don't know a single soccer mom that takes their giant 4x4 land yacht off road.

Also we are not China, so don't worry about them. Just because some one else is worse doesn't releave us of our actions. That's like a warlord in Africa who slays villages of people to dig up diamonds for them saying "The U.S. has had way more collateral damage than me, look at them first!"

Quoted for hilarious irony.

[Caaveman82]

The CB's are the least of the problem. I don't know a single soccer mom that takes their giant 4x4 land yacht off road.

Also we are not China, so don't worry about them. Just because some one else is worse doesn't releave us of our actions. That's like a warlord in Africa who slays villages of people to dig up diamonds for them saying "The U.S. has had way more collateral damage than me, look at them first!"

Quoted for hilarious irony.

I may just be very dense but I don't see it. Please enlighten me.

[333]

How the hell did this go from healthcare to energy and pollution?

[Laminar]

The CB's are the least of the problem. I don't know a single soccer mom that takes their giant 4x4 land yacht off road.

Also we are not China, so don't worry about them. Just because some one else is worse doesn't releave us of our actions. That's like a warlord in Africa who slays villages of people to dig up diamonds for them saying "The U.S. has had way more collateral damage than me, look at them first!"

Quoted for hilarious irony.

I may just be very dense but I don't see it. Please enlighten me.

"SUVs are worse than motorcycles"

followed immediately by

"Just because some one else is worse doesn't releave us of our actions"

[traveler]

Well, I'm gonna ride my bike.  Tough $hit to those who can't handle it!

~Joe

[ryder60]

How the hell did this go from healthcare to energy and pollution?

---------

It moved that way when someone challenged a foreigner's input on this thread.

As a health issue, is pollution good for us?  When the boreal forests are dying of acid rain from coal fired power plants and native peoples in the north are warned not to eat the fish they have eaten for thousands of years, because they have too high of a mercury content, should something be done?  The argument seems to be, no we shouldn't do anything because it would be bad for the economy.  Does it make any sense to those who have expressed their concern about what they are leaving to their children to continue down the road that leads over the cliff?

Is the USA or Canada that incapable of thinking and changing the way things are done or does the corporate world have more power that the governments?

This is another of the many issues where other countries would follow the lead of the USA if it had the political will to address the issue.  For most of us here it is a continental issue, we all change or we all continue the same as we are doing.

Have others noticed that the same people who say NO WE CAN'T are the people who say NO WE CAN'T to all issues: to pollution control, to health reform, to bank regulations, and to international justice.  They claim climate change is a hoax despite overwhelming evidence.  These same people call anyone who would try to come to grips with the ills of the country socialists and communists and don't really know what those terms mean.  These same people can't face any of the issues facing either Canada or the USA today and call those who will unpatriotic.  Some patriots!

I was across the border today in Washington State and saw a bumper sticker on a car.. It had a picture of Obama and it said "YES WE DID".  If you don't have the attitude that you can have power and can get change, even if slowly and incrementally, you are a sorry ass.

[traveler]

I hear what you are saying.....but you are still using an internal combsution engine, so where are you drawing the line?  Short of everyone going back to being hunter/gatherers, nothing else will do.

Personally, I'm going to live my life, the earth will just have to deal with it.  I'm already past 40, so I won't be here that much longer anyhow.

I find your angst about the Obama sticker puzzling.....are you against someone having the right to protest what they don't believe in?

And what about my Black doll?

~Joe

[Caaveman82]

The CB's are the least of the problem. I don't know a single soccer mom that takes their giant 4x4 land yacht off road.

Also we are not China, so don't worry about them. Just because some one else is worse doesn't releave us of our actions. That's like a warlord in Africa who slays villages of people to dig up diamonds for them saying "The U.S. has had way more collateral damage than me, look at them first!"

Quoted for hilarious irony.

I may just be very dense but I don't see it. Please enlighten me.

"SUVs are worse than motorcycles"

followed immediately by

"Just because some one else is worse doesn't releave us of our actions"

I see it now thanks. Though to me it is fact that a motorcycle does not pollute as much as an SUV. So I can see I was walking a tight line there, but I still think it's valid.

[ryder60]

I hear what you are saying.....but you are still using an internal combsution engine, so where are you drawing the line?  Short of everyone going back to being hunter/gatherers, nothing else will do.

Personally, I'm going to live my life, the earth will just have to deal with it.  I'm already past 40, so I won't be here that much longer anyhow.

I find your angst about the Obama sticker puzzling.....are you against someone having the right to protest what they don't believe in?

And what about my Black doll?

~Joe

------------------

You seem to me to be saying that because we can't fix all this by the weekend we ought to just not do anything.  "NO WE CAN'T."  I hear ya.  Because you can''t pay off all your debts (assuming you have any) by the end of the month you'll simply stop paying them.  After all, you're over forty.

The earth doesn't have any trouble dealing with what we are doing to it.  The earth doesn't give a sh*t.  Human beings, our children and grandchildren etc., will have to deal with it and they aren't biologically equipped to.  They'll be poisoned and mutated out of existence and the earth will happily take a few million years to detoxify itself.  Your statement about the earth having to deal with it shows you don't have any interest in understanding the issue.

I have nothing against protest, I fully support it.  I just think folks ought to be intelligent enough to know what they are protesting for or against.

What about your black doll?  I'm a foreigner and not up on all the inside nuances.

This is a thread about health care and you bring the same amount of understanding you have of your environmental health to the health reform debate.  And they are all different aspects of one issue.  You just want it to go away.  "NO WE CAN'T".  Banking regulation - "NO WE CAN'T."  Hmmmm.  Things are looking good for your future.  Keep it up.  "NO WE CAN'T."

[Laminar]

I see it now thanks. Though to me it is fact that a motorcycle does not pollute as much as an SUV. So I can see I was walking a tight line there, but I still think it's valid.

Can you show me some emissions test numbers? I would bet a LOT of money that a new Escalade with its fuel injection, engine management, PCV system, O2 sensors, and cats puts out SIGNIFICANTLY fewer harmful chemicals than a 32-year-old carburated motorcycle. Even if the SUV is using twice or three times the gasoline, I'd bet that the exhaust is still much much cleaner.

[Caaveman82]

I see it now thanks. Though to me it is fact that a motorcycle does not pollute as much as an SUV. So I can see I was walking a tight line there, but I still think it's valid.

Can you show me some emissions test numbers? I would bet a LOT of money that a new Escalade with its fuel injection, engine management, PCV system, O2 sensors, and cats puts out SIGNIFICANTLY fewer harmful chemicals than a 32-year-old carburated motorcycle. Even if the SUV is using twice or three times the gasoline, I'd bet that the exhaust is still much much cleaner.

So it's true. How about that. Learn something new every day. Good thing I drive a 93 Bronco to even it out huh? 

[img width= height=]http://carbonpig.com/sites/default/files/3/chart2.png[/img]


EDIT::Read it wrong, it says sport bikes. These are not high performance machines. I would assume we would fall under the "4 cyl" catagorie therefore putting us below even a standard sedan.

[Laminar]

I see it now thanks. Though to me it is fact that a motorcycle does not pollute as much as an SUV. So I can see I was walking a tight line there, but I still think it's valid.

Can you show me some emissions test numbers? I would bet a LOT of money that a new Escalade with its fuel injection, engine management, PCV system, O2 sensors, and cats puts out SIGNIFICANTLY fewer harmful chemicals than a 32-year-old carburated motorcycle. Even if the SUV is using twice or three times the gasoline, I'd bet that the exhaust is still much much cleaner.

So it's true. How about that. Learn something new every day. Good thing I drive a 93 Bronco to even it out huh? 

[img width= height=]http://carbonpig.com/sites/default/files/3/chart2.png[/img]


EDIT::Read it wrong, it says sport bikes. These are not high performance machines. I would assume we would fall under the "4 cyl" catagorie therefore putting us below even a standard sedan.

What's the source on the image? And once again I'd bet a boatload of money this is based on a modern bike with all of the emissions-friendly goodies. Not a carbureted 35-year-old bike spewing out all sorts of unburnt fuel and carcinogens.

[Inigo Montoya]

There is more to it than emissions though. Look at the materials used in production. You could probably make 5 bikes out of 1 suv. I would not argue fluids as most bikes require more frequent oils changes than a lot of average cars and trucks do, now anyways.
Another thing to look at is capacity. OK, while most people only cart their own asses around, you can stuff an average of 5-8 people in an suv. Motorcycles lose big there. If used as really meant, an suv is no more polluting than a motorcycle.

Now these stupid battery cars, I might argue differently. "oh I got a hybrid! I don't need gas!" Sure no gas but what about the extra electricity used every day to charge? Most of that comes from very unsafe coal plants. Dont be fooled, a coal plant might be cleaner than 30 years ago but they are still vastly more polluting than any other source of electricity, excepting maybe a nuke plant that melts down of course. AND these plants operate for decades without upgrade to systems to make them more efficient and cleaner.

Then you have to chemicals and metals to make that massive battery pack. AND THEN those same chemicals that have to (hopefully) be recycled if possible. Lotta toxic crap in those batteries.

I just dont think you can really compare bikes and cars to each other.

[traveler]

Nucelar power is actually very safe.

France uses them for something like 70% of it's energy needs.

3 Mile Island scared everybody so bad, we never progressed with it.

That's a shame, IMHO.

The only way we will ever be weaned off of the combustion engine is if the oil tap runs dry....then there is no choice but to find an alternative.  As is it right now, there isn't enough incentive to make it happen.

~Joe

[Laminar]

AND these plants operate for decades without upgrade to systems to make them more efficient and cleaner.

Which plants? Coal plants? Nuclear plants? You work in the oil/gas/energy industry and are qualified to comment on the internal workings of the aforementioned industry?

[Inigo Montoya]

No I dont work in the industry. I decided not to after being in a number of coal plants and seeing first hand how dirty they are. AND after i got a degree in power plant operations which focused primarily on coal and then hydro. Hydro never has job opening mainly because you do not have to deal with coal and all the chemicals, not to mention the nasty fly ash so the positions go FAST. Yup, waste of money but I decided my health was more important.
Not to mention I grew up in an area surrounded by coal plants such as Basin Electric, Coyote, and other whos names I cant think of off hand.
When you can smell the sulfur dioxide odor from 20 miles away, sorry but that is not clean. When fly ash chokes any bodies of water within a few miles, sorry not clean. Sorry but the scrubbers and bag systems they use do not collect everything, not by far.

Acid rain comes in large part from coal plants. Which is why in the 90's, clean air acts finally went in place but plants get years to upgrade and even with the upgrades, coal is still not clean.

Fly ash is nasty #$%*. Granted they can make bricks with it and use it for other things but the electrostatic precipitators do not catch it all. On top of that, there are radioactive elements in fly ash.

[Caaveman82]

Laminar, that info came from a study conducted by Berkeley. It did not state weather or not it was talking about modern fours or not but you are probably right.

Inigo, fly ash is used as an additive in concrete to keep it from reacting with salts and alkali's.

Joe, actually nuclear power plants need to have constant inspections to check for fatigue cracking in the silos and pipes. Pretty much anything that is metal and pressurized. Though without 3 mile, we would not have known to check.

[traveler]

Well, we have to do SOMETHING.....eliminating electricity won't happen.

~Joe

[Caaveman82]

Well, we have to do SOMETHING.....eliminating electricity won't happen.

~Joe

That is correct we do have to do something and no electricity will never go away. Again though it would be a big initial investment but would pay off in the end, I'm talkin wind turbines brother. Solar pannels. Green roofs. This is going to be common place stuff really soon so I would start getting used to the idea.

[img width= height=]http://consulting4architects.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/fukuoka_green_roof1.jpg[/img]

[ryder60]

Well, we have to do SOMETHING.....eliminating electricity won't happen.

~Joe

----------------

We tend to think of power coming from a grid so we think in BIG projects.  A lot of folks up our coast aren't on any grid.  They get enough power from their solar panels to run most of their appliances.  I know batteries are very toxic but we can keep developing safer, cleaner batteries.  None the less, can you see individual homes using more solar power?  Didn't they pass some law in California to install solar panels on all the state buildings to produce their own power and even to sell surplus to the grid.  Can't that be done other places?  It only takes political will to bring it about and it will pay off in the future.

I'm inclined to think this is one of those issues where a lot can be accomplished through individual initiative.  Corporations aren't usually motivated to develop solutions until they see a profit in it or they are given something like a monopoly.  Most of their R&D is through government grant.  It's likely through small specialty companies that individuals will be able to get the technology and expert support to get them selves off the grid or at least reduce their demand.

Transportation is a different issue.  All urban planning since the end of WWII has been predicated upon a supply of cheap oil.  I think, again, most changes will come from individuals changing their transportation habits.  Our old bikes are pretty heavy polluters but I'll keep mine.  I understand that 30% of the pollution that comes from the average car is the pollution of manufacturing.  Mine is old and I won't be changing it as long as it can be brought back to life.  At the same time, I do like riding my bicycle.  I also think developing public transport should be a priority.  It will be an investment for quite a while but will pay dividends in the end.  Urban planning will have to be focused on public transportation to effect the change.  We see that beginning to happen though.

[ev0lve]

Well, we have to do SOMETHING.....eliminating electricity won't happen.

~Joe

----------------

We tend to think of power coming from a grid so we think in BIG projects.  A lot of folks up our coast aren't on any grid.  They get enough power from their solar panels to run most of their appliances.

I'm inclined to think this is one of those issues where a lot can be accomplished through individual initiative.  

Please see Government Initiative - Germany - #$%*ing fascist/socialist/communist anti-capitolist [sic - dammit!] douchebags
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/04/AR2007050402466.html

"The plant is part of a building boom that has made gloomy-skied Germany the unlikely global leader in solar-generated electricity. Last year, about half of the world's solar electricity was produced in the country. Of the 20 biggest photovoltaic plants, 15 are in Germany, even though it has only half as many sunny days as countries such as Portugal.

The reason is not a breakthrough in the economics or technology of solar power but a law adopted in 2000. It requires the country's huge old-line utility companies to subsidize the solar upstarts by buying their electricity at marked-up rates that make it easy for the newcomers to turn a profit. Their cleanly created power enters the utilities' grids for sale to consumers."

Glad we're not going to go that way, yessiree.


#$%*ing communists...
"German officials readily acknowledged that they are embracing solar technology not just for its environmental benefits. German firms that manufacture photovoltaic panels and other components have prospered under the new energy act and now employ 40,000 people. An additional 15,000 people work for companies in the solar-thermal business, which make heating systems for homes and businesses."

[traveler]

It's not a socialist/communist/whatever-ist....it's honest to goodness needed solutions to problems that MUST be solved!

We REALLY need to get on this, and quit getting distracted, IMHO.

~Joe

[seaweb11]

edit.

[w1sa]

Please see Government Initiative - Germany - #$%*ing fascist/socialist/communist anti-capitolist [sic - dammit!] douchebags
#$%*ing communists...
"German officials readily acknowledged that they are embracing solar technology not just for its environmental benefits. German firms that manufacture photovoltaic panels and other components have prospered under the new energy act and now employ 40,000 people. An additional 15,000 people work for companies in the solar-thermal business, which make heating systems for homes and businesses."
[/quote]

Yea, our coal fired powerplants (incl workers, business and communities) will be under threat from those #$%*ing socialist commies as well, unless they stop this government encouraged environmental/planetary health/welfare sh!t..