Author Topic: defeated, depressed, and confused --- UPDATED!  (Read 5900 times)

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Offline SanDogDewey

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Re: defeated, depressed, and confused
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2010, 06:50:46 PM »
Oh i also forgot that its been back firing and idleing very oddly, it would start and idle correctly at like 1k-1500 then after riding it it would jump to 3k rpms. That is before this happened of course.

Is your clutch cable and throttle cable routed so it doesn't bind? The jumping idle sounds like a cable mis-routed. Does the idle change when you move the bars back and forth?

The back firing sounds like a timing issue or lack of fuel. Check the drain plug in each bowl and make sure they are all getting fuel. Did you mess with the throttle rack or just disconnect the throttle and choke cables when you cleaned the carbs.

Offline xfactor

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Re: defeated, depressed, and confused
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2010, 07:32:49 PM »
Oh i also forgot that its been back firing and idleing very oddly, it would start and idle correctly at like 1k-1500 then after riding it it would jump to 3k rpms. That is before this happened of course.

Is your clutch cable and throttle cable routed so it doesn't bind? The jumping idle sounds like a cable mis-routed. Does the idle change when you move the bars back and forth?

The back firing sounds like a timing issue or lack of fuel. Check the drain plug in each bowl and make sure they are all getting fuel. Did you mess with the throttle rack or just disconnect the throttle and choke cables when you cleaned the carbs.


Which one is the drain plug on the carbs? And no i didnt mess with the throttle rack, I just uncrewed the carbs from the rack and took it off that way, as specified in my clymer. What do you mean routed so it dosent bind? Both the throttle and the cluth cables have not been giving me any trouble, but might be worth replacing seeing as they are relatively cheap.

How do I adjust the timing, or is that listed in my clymer as well, i have looked before but didnt see anything, might have been looking in the wrong place though.

Offline 754

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Re: defeated, depressed, and confused
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2010, 10:20:57 PM »
Your speeded up idle sounds like it may be advance  unit sticking

 Find the ignition section, read it a few times.. then you should be able to clean & gap points, and make sure that part is working.

 If you drop the bowl off the petcock, check for water,..pour onto concrete or look for water in it.
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Offline Hush

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Re: defeated, depressed, and confused
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2010, 11:35:23 PM »
Good guess 754, I've read all this and as he had a bike that ran quite well before this devloped points to no strange sudden carb adjustment to me.
I'd say advancer unit jamming or air filter clogging or blocked fuel delivery.
Most Hondas have a drain in the bottom of each carb bowl, open this and see how much gas is in each bowl, you can check by running a tube from the drains to 4 clear jars.
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Offline xfactor

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Re: defeated, depressed, and confused
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2010, 08:03:22 AM »
thanks 754 and Hush!

I have a list of things I need to try today. Any special items I should use for cleaning the points? I know i need to invest in something to gap it but i hear those are cheap, I want to go into today with everything I need so i dont have to stop working on my bike to run to the auto parts store.

Luck for me the PO installed a K & N filter so I am gonna clean and oil that, which saves me some money and ultimately makes me life just a little bit easier. I just want to be able to ride my bike home saturday and not leave it at my parents house, my pops isnt to happy about me leaving it there.


Croix

Offline bistromath

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Re: defeated, depressed, and confused
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2010, 08:10:11 AM »
thanks 754 and Hush!

I have a list of things I need to try today. Any special items I should use for cleaning the points? I know i need to invest in something to gap it but i hear those are cheap, I want to go into today with everything I need so i dont have to stop working on my bike to run to the auto parts store.

Luck for me the PO installed a K & N filter so I am gonna clean and oil that, which saves me some money and ultimately makes me life just a little bit easier. I just want to be able to ride my bike home saturday and not leave it at my parents house, my pops isnt to happy about me leaving it there.

Emery cloth. A points file is a worthwhile investment to make sure they're flat and parallel, but an emery cloth will clean them up nicely. Just insert it between closed points and pull out.
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Offline 754

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Re: defeated, depressed, and confused
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2010, 08:12:40 AM »
You need feeler guages, or at least the correct size. I always cleaned points with fine sandpaper, some use a points file. Has to be done carfully without full tension on points (a bit tricky). The grit is bad for all the parts, cleanup well. I drag a piece of clean business card thru the points to clean them, you have to sort of lift the pints open a bit to do this, or it digs into the paper and fouls them.

 You may have had a set of points close up, check that as soon as you get the cover off.. check that the advance is turning freely.
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Offline xfactor

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Re: defeated, depressed, and confused
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2010, 11:09:14 AM »
You need feeler guages, or at least the correct size. I always cleaned points with fine sandpaper, some use a points file. Has to be done carfully without full tension on points (a bit tricky). The grit is bad for all the parts, cleanup well. I drag a piece of clean business card thru the points to clean them, you have to sort of lift the pints open a bit to do this, or it digs into the paper and fouls them.

 You may have had a set of points close up, check that as soon as you get the cover off.. check that the advance is turning freely.

What exactly is the advance? Im looking at my clymer and it is not listed, I know a noob question, but I am not used to working on bikes.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: defeated, depressed, and confused
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2010, 11:10:44 AM »
Sand is mostly silica and does NOT conduct electricity.

Sandpaper leaves tiny bits of insulating material on point contact surfaces, which effectively reduces the contact area and current carrying capability of the points, which causes them to heat faster and burn up faster.

If you must use an abrasive on the points make sure the grit is made of a conductive material.  This is the main reason why a points file was developed as THE tool to recondition point contacts.  

FYI

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Offline xfactor

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Re: defeated, depressed, and confused --- UPDATED!
« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2010, 06:20:27 AM »
Well i found the problem well one of them.

I went through and gaped and cleaned up the point. Then I went and checked the fuel flow, out of the tank, fine, but not getting to the carbs, so I followed the line and there it was, it was kinked probably happened after I put the carbs back on. So i was excited none the less when to try and start still nothing. So I moved on to the plugs, now I am not sure if i correctly tested to see if it was getting a spark, but it wasnt.

 So my question is this, how do i check to see if it is sparking? What should my next move be if in fact it isnt sparking? I knwo for a fact that fuel is getting to the plugs becuase when I pulled them they were wet with gas.

I am just happy to have finally found my problem.

Croix

Offline ekpent

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Re: defeated, depressed, and confused --- UPDATED!
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2010, 06:39:34 AM »
When the plug is out but in the cap lay it against the head or valve cover to ground and turn over the engine with the ignition on and look for a spark. May be hard to see in sun light,dark garage is easier.

Offline xfactor

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Re: defeated, depressed, and confused --- UPDATED!
« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2010, 06:45:54 AM »
When the plug is out but in the cap lay it against the head or valve cover to ground and turn over the engine with the ignition on and look for a spark. May be hard to see in sun light,dark garage is easier.

Will do, this is what I was doing, but it was a bit low on battery juice so I am going to charge the battery and try again, assuming that dosent work I am not getting any spark what do you think my next move should be?

Offline ekpent

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Re: defeated, depressed, and confused --- UPDATED!
« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2010, 07:13:51 AM »
Check all of the plugs. The points etc work the 1&4 cylinder and 2-3 cylinder. If a pair of plugs are not working start at the points - condensors for that pair. Make sure caps are seated well in wire and connections at coil.

Offline xfactor

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Re: defeated, depressed, and confused --- UPDATED!
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2010, 10:21:21 AM »
thanks, i am hoping that it isnt somthing big and i can get her going today. I am hoping I didnt mess up the points when I gaped them.


When gaping the points which piece should I move? The side with the screw right? I was also confused because when I turned the middle nut in the points neither point opened up. Is this a bad thing?

Offline xfactor

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Re: defeated, depressed, and confused --- UPDATED!
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2010, 11:54:55 AM »
OK she ran, idleing a bit high and some of the old probs came back bit she ran and was driveable.

Then after dhutting her off it sounded like the starter kept cranking for a few seconds then nothing. The switch wont turn the ignition on but it will do the p light. Any idea what problem this could be? Im so very close yet so very far, i feel like im in the home stretch but just need a tiny bit more help.

Also tried bypassing the ignition switch and still nothing it wont turn on the head light nor  the oil light.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 12:04:05 PM by xfactor »

Offline scottly

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Re: defeated, depressed, and confused
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2010, 08:41:08 PM »
Sand is mostly silica and does NOT conduct electricity.

If you must use an abrasive on the points make sure the grit is made of a conductive material.  This is the main reason why a points file was developed as THE tool to recondition point contacts.  

FYI

Cheers,

Sorry for the thread-jack, but I'm curious about conductive grit. What sort of material is this, and where can I find it?
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Offline Tretnine

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Re: defeated, depressed, and confused --- UPDATED!
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2010, 08:58:07 PM »
OK she ran, idleing a bit high and some of the old probs came back bit she ran and was driveable.

Then after dhutting her off it sounded like the starter kept cranking for a few seconds then nothing. The switch wont turn the ignition on but it will do the p light. Any idea what problem this could be? Im so very close yet so very far, i feel like im in the home stretch but just need a tiny bit more help.

Also tried bypassing the ignition switch and still nothing it wont turn on the head light nor  the oil light.

check your fuses first.
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Offline Old75_ratafe

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Re: defeated, depressed, and confused --- UPDATED!
« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2010, 09:08:23 PM »
OK she ran, idleing a bit high and some of the old probs came back bit she ran and was driveable.

Then after dhutting her off it sounded like the starter kept cranking for a few seconds then nothing. The switch wont turn the ignition on but it will do the p light. Any idea what problem this could be? Im so very close yet so very far, i feel like im in the home stretch but just need a tiny bit more help.

Also tried bypassing the ignition switch and still nothing it wont turn on the head light nor  the oil light.

Might be in the starter switch shorting out and causing the main fuse to blow. 
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Offline xfactor

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Re: defeated, depressed, and confused --- UPDATED!
« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2010, 09:27:55 PM »
OK she ran, idleing a bit high and some of the old probs came back bit she ran and was driveable.

Then after dhutting her off it sounded like the starter kept cranking for a few seconds then nothing. The switch wont turn the ignition on but it will do the p light. Any idea what problem this could be? Im so very close yet so very far, i feel like im in the home stretch but just need a tiny bit more help.

Also tried bypassing the ignition switch and still nothing it wont turn on the head light nor  the oil light.

Might be in the starter switch shorting out and causing the main fuse to blow. 

Checked the fuses everything is good, I am thinking maybe it was the battery wont know till tomorrow when I bring it in to get tested.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: defeated, depressed, and confused
« Reply #44 on: April 18, 2010, 10:25:15 PM »
Sand is mostly silica and does NOT conduct electricity.

If you must use an abrasive on the points make sure the grit is made of a conductive material.  This is the main reason why a points file was developed as THE tool to recondition point contacts.  

FYI

Cheers,

Sorry for the thread-jack, but I'm curious about conductive grit. What sort of material is this, and where can I find it?
I don't recommend (or use) grit material for points anymore, as when I did, the points burned far faster.  When I found documentation from the telco company about point reconditioning (the telephone exchanges used to have quite a lot of relay point contacts).  They found out through experience that grit was very, very bad for points longevity.  And, their technicians made use of ONLY point files made for that intended purpose for correcting "bad connections".  (I believe it was a Bell Labs investigation/report.  But, it has been many years since I saw it).

Pretty much all the cheap, commonly available "sandpaper" types have non-conductive grit.  Aluminum oxide worked best for me.  But, I speculate it had grit binder that was tougher, and then left tinier particles that wore off quickly, even though they were non-conductive. 
But, probably the best chance of conductive grit would be silicon carbide.  I've not tested that though.  I just don't have probes that small, and wouldn't expect the grit binder to be conductive.
I very much doubt much attention is made toward purposely making the grit conductive during manufacture.   More like, "it is what it is, and it will make your wood smoother."  I wouldn't expect "conductivity" is part of their process control.

Like many things, there is the proper tool for the job.  But, screwdrivers are used as pry bars and their handles are still used as hammers, perhaps daily.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline scottly

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Re: defeated, depressed, and confused --- UPDATED!
« Reply #45 on: April 18, 2010, 11:13:30 PM »
Actually, what the telco guys used was a "burnisher, contact: Spring steel blade in an insulating holder. The blade is sandblasted, giving the effect of a very fine file, used to clean contacts." Also, the relay contacts used in electromechanical telephone switches were a much softer material than used for ignition points...
I have had the best success cleaning up ignition points using a whet-stone, better than sand-paper, better than a point-file...
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Offline 754

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Re: defeated, depressed, and confused --- UPDATED!
« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2010, 08:23:36 AM »

  A few things I found..

 I did at one point use a point file, I found it very grabby especially if there was pitting. I ended up not using it.

 I use emery cloth or fine sandpaper, and vary the amount by applying pressure to the movable point. When you start cleaning it will usually grab or tear if pressure is too much.

 I find the Honda points on the short side as far as points go, I am now running GM points.

 I would like for folks to consider this point; The thicker the cleaning media.. the less parallel, the point faces will end up, this condition will worsen on shorter point sets. So thinnner abrasive media should work better

 Cleaning off the grit ...very important.. if you cannot do this successfully, you best get some else to do it.

 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 Back to the OP.. If you are not finding the advancer, you have not done enough reading, and maybe are not ready to do this work. If you familiarize yourself with the process by doing the research, it will all start making sense.

 If your plugs are bad, they will get to a point where they are just wasting your time.. better to use fresh ones
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My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
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Offline blake255

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Re: defeated, depressed, and confused --- UPDATED!
« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2010, 11:24:13 AM »
 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 Back to the OP.. If you are not finding the advancer, you have not done enough reading, and maybe are not ready to do this work. If you familiarize yourself with the process by doing the research, it will all start making sense.

My suggestion is that you buy a copy of Mark Paris' (aka HondaMan) My CB750 Book or Mike Nixon's Tuning up the Honda SOHC 750 booklet.  Either one will be far better than a Clymer's manual, walk you through the tune up procedure, and do a nice job of explaining the theory behind what your doing.

Blake
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 11:32:55 AM by blake255 »
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Offline xfactor

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Re: defeated, depressed, and confused --- UPDATED!
« Reply #48 on: April 19, 2010, 11:24:46 AM »
So I fixed my current problem of no spark by un gapping my points. I gapped them according to the book to .014, but when I did that I lost my spark, so I un gapped them.

My question is where is the best place to order new points and condensers?


Offline Old75_ratafe

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Re: defeated, depressed, and confused --- UPDATED!
« Reply #49 on: April 19, 2010, 10:10:33 PM »
Hey 754 wouldn't the points be kinda shot if they are so pitted u can't use a file?
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