Topic: some advice please... re:mechanic negotiation

[1974blaze]

i am headed over to pick up my 1978 cb125s from my mechanic.  i should start by saying that i find him to be a reasonable and decent guy despite some frustrations.  i dropped the bike off because it needed a spark plug insert and having them do it was cheaper than buying the kit.  also, i was at wits end with the bike and things just seemed to be getting worse, i was over my head, which i don't mind, but out of ideas too.  so while it was there i said, hey, see if you can get this thing running will you?

noting that i had to return the thing there because the insert was in crooked and they had to figure out how to remove it and re-insert.  also i bought a new coil from them (universal) which when they looked at it at the shop said it was cracked, wasn't cracked when i had it as far as i know. 

so i drop off the bike, they have it for 10 days, i check in every few.  he can't figure it out or hasn't got to it.  calls me yesterday and says it's all running, but there will be a huge bill.  and he just want's to warn me, before they figure out the final number.  what??? i say, like how much? well, three guys worked on it for three days.  these dudes are $60/hr.  wow. 

no phone call in the middle to tell me where things were at on hours, no mention of buying a used cb125 ignition system from a 1972 at a swap meet last weekend and then rewiring the bike to fit it (converting bike from ac system to dc) .  no, "hey i bought this ignition system off a guy, i think it'll fix the problem but it's gonna take time and cost lot's of money, do you want to put it in yourself?"  i mean, these would all have been reasonable things to say.  he said himself yesterday that these bikes aren't worth more than $500 so why do i get the feeling he's about to hand me a $1200 dollar tab?

i'm thinking i should negotiate hard on this. and i haven't even seen the numbers yet.

thoughts? ideas?

thanks.

[sangyo soichiro]

You don't have to say anything on the spot.  You don't have to make the deal right away, if you know what I mean.  Just have prepared something simple to say so you can walk away from it and think about it a little while.  Something like, "Wow.  I'm going to have to come back."  Or something like that.  Just something to get you out of there and prepare your thoughts better.  Give yourself a little time after you learn the cost to think it over what to do.  My $0.02.

[rhos1355]

Frustrating, I know. I'm having the same probs with my mech on my other bike, the Tiger. The guy is really nice, but he's a) waaaayyyy to friendly with his staff, b) tries to be too many things at the same time: secretary, mechanic, parts procurer, storeman etc. He can never stay doing one thing longer that 5 minutes before he's interrupted. Furthermore over the years he's become the victim of his own success, too many clients. Too many jobs on the go. Workshop is crammed with half repaired bikes, bits, bobs, wires, oil cans etc.
Last year I brought my CB750 hub to him to see if he could extract the old bearings. I asked him if he had a bearing puller/extractor. Yeah, yeah he says and calls one of his workers and instructs him to "get these bearings out, mate". The worker then proceeds to lock the hub in a wheel vice, picks up a chisel and a 14lb hammer and is juuust about to slam the merry bejaysus out of it, when I stopped him. I told him there's no way that bearing can go through the hub 'cos there's a ledge keeping it from falling into the hub centre.
Oh, yeah, well, didn't kno that yadda yadda yadda.
What would have happened if I'd left it there?? I'd be looking around for a new hub by now. At my own expense.
Since then I've lost a lot of faith in the guy. But as usual don't have the time to scout around for another

[sangyo soichiro]

You don't have to say anything on the spot.  You don't have to make the deal right away, if you know what I mean.  Just have prepared something simple to say so you can walk away from it and think about it a little while.  Something like, "Wow.  I'm going to have to come back."  Or something like that.  Just something to get you out of there and prepare your thoughts better.  Give yourself a little time after you learn the cost to think it over what to do.  My $0.02.

Thinking it over a bit more, I think I would add, "You didn't think to call me before doing all this stuff?!"  And in a tone of voice that suggests displeasure in their business practice.


$60/hr times 3 guys times 3 days (8 hour days) = $4320 in labor alone.  If he thinks you owe him that much he's nuts!



Plus, you shouldn't have to pay for his employees' education.  They obviously got an education on that bike if it took them that long.  The employer should pay for that. 

I'd say the fair price is how long it actually takes for the repair (not how long it took his misfits!), plus parts, minus the fact that he didn't check in with you first (i.e., he just made the cost negotiable by not checking with you first!).



I don't think you want to do business with these clowns in the future, so don't be too afraid to burn bridges.

[The_Crippler]

This is the main reason that, even with the shop I've dealt with for years, I always end every conversation with, "Drop me a line with an estimate before you do anything."

I'd say you have some wiggle room on all this work without an estimate, though I wouldn't be surprised if he came back with, "Yeah, well you said to 'get it running,' and I did."  Stand your ground, but don't make threats.  Just talk him down and make him see your way.  If not, think about just walking away from the bike.

[wardenerd]

I have a decent guy here if fayetteville but he is in business so i always give them a do not exceed figure.  They will call me if They are going over and will call with optional to dos if they are under.  Usually I get an estimate for stuff like tires.  He will also install parts I bring in at $50 an hour.

[sangyo soichiro]

If not, think about just walking away from the bike.

Then that would be tantamount to the garage stealing the bike!  If it comes to this, they should at least give you something for it (not that I can see that happening...).

[The_Crippler]

Oh, it's certainly not the best outcome, that's for sure - but if the bike's only worth $500, and they come after him for $4000+, and nothing else works...

[scunny]

3 mechanics for 3 days ?  for a start how can 3 people work on a bike.
1 decent mechanic could rebuild the whole motor in 1 day

[TwoTired]

If not, think about just walking away from the bike.

Then that would be tantamount to the garage stealing the bike!  If it comes to this, they should at least give you something for it (not that I can see that happening...).

Happens all the time.  Perfectly legal.  Its a mechanic lien.  You don't pay, breeching your contract, and the shop takes your bike and sells it to recover their costs and labor.  They have to go through a process that takes more time than simply getting paid.  But, that is often their only recourse when people don't live up to the work contract.

There are consumer protection laws, too.  But, if the shop is stubborn/shady, they will make you take them to court for compensation  and they can charge you "storage fees".  So, the court thing is best done after you pay them, even if it feels like extortion.  You will need a lot of documentation, including the work contract, to prove your case in court.  Make sure anything they did outside of the work order and beyond your request, is specified clearly.

My CX500 was a mechanic lien bike.  The shop owner gave it to me for some handyman work.

Cheers,

[Gordon]

Happens all the time.  Perfectly legal.  Its a mechanic lien.  You don't pay, breeching your contract, and the shop takes your bike and sells it to recover their costs and labor.  They have to go through a process that takes more time than simply getting paid.  But, that is often their only recourse when people don't live up to the work contract.

Only if there was a signed estimate before the work was done, which in this case there wasn't, so there's no mechanic's lien. 

[The_Crippler]

My CX500 was a mechanic lien bike.  The shop owner gave it to me for some handyman work.

In a round about way, so is my 650.

[TwoTired]

Happens all the time.  Perfectly legal.  Its a mechanic lien.  You don't pay, breeching your contract, and the shop takes your bike and sells it to recover their costs and labor.  They have to go through a process that takes more time than simply getting paid.  But, that is often their only recourse when people don't live up to the work contract.

Only if there was a signed estimate before the work was done, which in this case there wasn't, so there's no mechanic's lien. 

He can still keep the bike until he is paid.  And, those storage fees can add up.
If the shop owner has a business license and pays taxes and fees to the city, and state, the laws are skewed to keep the owner in business and keep those fees going to city and state coffers.  Consumer laws do attempt to keep the money flowing fairly, that's all.

It's really best to talk with the shop guy for a fair exchange, rather than either party going to legal avenues.

We still haven't been told what the shop is actually asking for the repair.

Cheers,

[sangyo soichiro]

If not, think about just walking away from the bike.

Then that would be tantamount to the garage stealing the bike!  If it comes to this, they should at least give you something for it (not that I can see that happening...).

Happens all the time. 

Sweet!  At least they give you something for it.  Whew.   

[1974blaze]

great discussion guys, thanks.

ok, some closure.

i went over there with a number in mind based around the idea of what i think this bike is worth in perfect shape (about $800).
i bought it for $150, bought tires ($75), bars ($30), grips($30 - sparkly vintage ones), paint ($25), vintage 125 badges ($40).  so... i'm thinking $400 for this work if in fact the bike is running perfect.

rode the bike, fast, smooth, really nice, the work was good. i said, "ya know, i kinda wished you'd called me at some point in the process."  he was annoyed, "why? to tell you we were 15 hrs into a job we shouldn't have got into?" i said nothing and he knew he had just outed himself.  "i have a pocket full of money with me, and i really don't want to hand it all over to you, so let's figure out a number" i said.  so he went to work up a bill while i rode a mile and came back. 

he billed me 4hrs plus parts. total = $408. 

reasonable guy, as i was leaving he commented, "well, that's a nice ride now man, looks great.  this is last chance cycles, i'm glad we got'r running." 

me too. 

[Gordon]

ok, some closure.

i went over there with a number in mind based around the idea of what i think this bike is worth in perfect shape (about $800).
i bought it for $150, bought tires ($75), bars ($30), grips($30 - sparkly vintage ones), paint ($25), vintage 125 badges ($40).  so... i'm thinking $400 for this work if in fact the bike is running perfect.

I'm glad to hear you got it worked out to your's and the shop's satisfaction. 

I have to say, though, that the value of the bike and what you paid for it and any improvements you've made to it don't have any bearing on what it costs to pay someone else to work on it.  Shop labor and parts have a set price that isn't on a sliding scale based on the value of the bike being worked on.  That assumption is one of the main reasons I can think of why it can be so difficult to find a shop that will work on older vehicles. 

[The_Crippler]

Glad to hear it worked out in the end.

[1974blaze]

[/quote]

I'm glad to hear you got it worked out to your's and the shop's satisfaction. 

I have to say, though, that the value of the bike and what you paid for it and any improvements you've made to it don't have any bearing on what it costs to pay someone else to work on it.  Shop labor and parts have a set price that isn't on a sliding scale based on the value of the bike being worked on.  That assumption is one of the main reasons I can think of why it can be so difficult to find a shop that will work on older vehicles. 
[/quote]

i agree, but in this same line of thinking, a shop should keep you up to speed on the running cost at some level. believe me, i value their work and tell them so, just like people pay my rates for my work and the cost is always agreed upon and finalized before hand. 

but really i'm just happy to have a good relationship with them.  we all make compromises in our work sometimes to keep our repeat customers. 

[Gordon]

i agree, but in this same line of thinking, a shop should keep you up to speed on the running cost at some level. believe me, i value their work and tell them so, just like people pay my rates for my work and the cost is always agreed upon and finalized before hand. 

but really i'm just happy to have a good relationship with them.  we all make compromises in our work sometimes to keep our repeat customers. 

Fully agree.  It's in the best interest of anyone who runs a shop (and their customers) to make sure that any repairs that are going to be done are approved by the person who is going to be paying for them.  I recently got a free rust removal and coating on the inside of my 550 rear rim because the wheel shop I go to didn't call to approve before they did it.  They do good, fast work, and they know how to treat their customers, which is why I keep going back to them.   

It was just your comments about the cost of the bike and the upgrades you've made to it in reference to the repair costs that spurred my reply.  I've heard too many times from people whose bikes I'm working on and other guys I know who work on bikes that because someone's bike only cost them $xxx that it shouldn't cost more than $xx to get it running again. 

In your case, though, it seems like both you and your mechanic are reasonable people and were able to come to an agreement that you were both happy with, which is good to hear.