Topic: To all you fabricators: Oxy-Acetylene?

[jessezm]

Hey metal guys!  Can you all tell me the capabilities of an oxy-acetylene torch as it applies to motorcycle fabrication?  Can you use it to weld braces and brackets onto frames if you're good?  Is it more/less useful than a cheap MIG set up?

I've done some stick welding before, and am pretty good with my hands and a fast learner, I'm just wondering what sorts of things I can do with this torch if I buy it...  Thanks!

[scrapvalue]

Torchs are good for cutting and brazing, and loosing tight parts.
 But for cutting a motorcycle frame, you are better off using a sawzall. It will give you a more exact cut.

I am not an expert on welders, but I have a mig welder with the tank.
The ones that don't have the tank option are not of much use.
I also have a stick welder, but that is just to much for light duty welding that is common on motorcycle frames.

[Nikkisixx]

You can't cut with a mig/tig but:
You can't weld aluminum with gas (you can with tig )
Steep learning curve to gas weld
Can't weld sheet metal with gas, but you could braze

[the architect]

I use oxy/acetylene to weld sheet metal from time to time.  The key it to have the right size tip ("00" or "000" works well for 18ga.).

In my limited experience, one bad thing about torch welding is that the workpiece takes more heat that with mig/tig welding.  This can lead to warpage. 

A decent torch setup is really versatile, though.  If you like fabrication, it'll be a necessity at some point.  It's also relatively inexpensive to get into (compared to $$ for a mig welder with gas valving or $$$ for a decent tig machine).

You might have already checked out youtube for some videos, but if not, search oxy-fuel welding, gas welding and/or torch welding.  Watching some of those can give you a good start.

[jessezm]

Awesome, thanks!  Architect, I'm a major fan of your build by the way!  There's a Harbor Freight sale going on and the Oxy-Acetylene kit is $70, and I was thinking about getting it, but I know it will also cost for the tanks, gloves, and helmet/goggles I'll need, plus brazing rods and the like...

[scrapvalue]

You can't cut with a mig/tig but:
You can't weld aluminum with gas (you can with tig )
Steep learning curve to gas weld
Can't weld sheet metal with gas, but you could braze

Your better off to do all your cutting with a blade saw. Either a sawzall or for fabricating small pieces use a band saw.
Clean straight cuts are much easier to deal with.

I've never welded aluminum with mine, but I was told you can just get a role of aluminum wire and weld some aluminum. Although, I have never done it, or needed to. Not much aluminum other then the motor on these old bikes.
Not much aluminum welding to be done on older motorcycles.
 
Mig welding is way easier to learn then trying to learn with torches. Just a little practice on some scrap steel and you will be on your way.
It is also way more versatile and easier to use then a stick welder,(have one of those also).

I wish someone would have told me I couldn't weld sheet metal with my wire feed before fabricated my tail light assembly, battery box and and some other items before I did it.

Anyway, not trying to be disagreeable, but I have found the wire feed welder to be the best and easiest way to fasten to pieces of metal together in a neat and very Strong manner.

[Alan F.]

Awesome, thanks!  Architect, I'm a major fan of your build by the way!  There's a Harbor Freight sale going on and the Oxy-Acetylene kit is $70, and I was thinking about getting it, but I know it will also cost for the tanks, gloves, and helmet/goggles I'll need, plus brazing rods and the like...

Ask around for the 20% coupon before you head down there.
-Alan

[jessezm]

Well I've done some more reading and actually went to the store and looked at a couple welders (HF and Northern Tool).  I think Scrap is right--a Mig is probably the best, easiest, and most versatile way to go.  While HF has one for $179 (as apposed to the $700 Northern Tool model), I would still need gas, regulator, gloves, helmet, and other consumables...  I've heard that the Chicago Electric brand might also not be the way to go for longevity...   So maybe I've sort of come to my senses--hold off for a while and if I really want to continue working with metal, buy something decent that will last and don't waste a few hundred bucks on a cheap setup that doesn't really match my needs.  For now I'll be taking my frame to a friend who repairs aircraft for the military, and let him work his magic.

[CB650 Wolf]

When I was in high school I learned arc welding. It was really easy to learn how to do it and really versatile. If I remember right all you needed was a open electrical outlet to hook up the machine.

[jessezm]

My stepdad used to weld on shipyards in San Fran (back in his rabble-rousing, labor organizing days...).  When I was in high school we bought ourselves an arc welder and he taught me a little as well.  We made some yard art and a few odds and ends...   He's still got it and I do have access to it, but I'm not sure that stick welding on my frame is a good idea with my skill level....  Plus it runs on 220 VAC.  But of course, so do some of the MIG setups.  I wonder if I went and practiced on some scrap if I could get good enough to do anything useful on my bike with the arc welder?

[scrapvalue]

My stepdad used to weld on shipyards in San Fran (back in his rabble-rousing, labor organizing days...).  When I was in high school we bought ourselves an arc welder and he taught me a little as well.  We made some yard art and a few odds and ends...   He's still got it and I do have access to it, but I'm not sure that stick welding on my frame is a good idea with my skill level....  Plus it runs on 220 VAC.  But of course, so do some of the MIG setups.  I wonder if I went and practiced on some scrap if I could get good enough to do anything useful on my bike with the arc welder?

If you have access to a stick welder, by all means practice. You can't screw anything up to bad if you are just using scrap medal.
I bought my mig welder from a neigbor that bought it to build a street rod. After he finished his project, he had no use for and sold it to me for $300. The best $300 I ever spent,(I think).
Most MIG welders run on 110, mine does. Makes it pretty handy when you want to take it somewhere to help someone out.

[paulages]

You can't cut with a mig/tig but:
You can't weld aluminum with gas (you can with tig )
Steep learning curve to gas weld
Can't weld sheet metal with gas, but you could braze

You certainly can weld alu and sheet with oxy/acet, it's just difficult.

[jessezm]

I've found a MIG set up for sale locally--Lincoln Pro Core 100 with the MIG conversion, just no regulator and bottle (which I'd have to buy).   He's asking $225--seems like a decent deal, actually...  Any thoughts?

Oh, and I do use sawzall and grinders to make my cuts already.

[crazypj]

I'm not a weldor but I have been welding for over 30yrs, (gas, stick, MIG)
If you can stick weld, just use correct rods for thick stuff and gas weld everything else. (usually 7*** series electrodes)
Aluminium welding is possible with gas, just not easy
aluminium oxide melts around 2300deg, aluminium about 1200, the oxide on surface 'holds' shape until it ends up as a blob on the floor 
 Personally, I tend to use stick and gas more than anything else

[paulages]

I'm not a weldor but I have been welding for over 30yrs, (gas, stick, MIG)
If you can stick weld, just use correct rods for thick stuff and gas weld everything else. (usually 7*** series electrodes)
Aluminium welding is possible with gas, just not easy
aluminium oxide melts around 2300deg, aluminium about 1200, the oxide on surface 'holds' shape until it ends up as a blob on the floor 
 Personally, I tend to use stick and gas more than anything else

yeah, just annealing aluminum sheet is hard enough... i'm thoroughly impressed by the old school body work guys that weld tanks, etc with gas only.

[crazypj]

 Long long time ago...................... (probably 1973~74)
 I watched old mechanic at Honda dealer gas welding a Triumph crankcase using an old piston as filler. 
He welded 'broken' Spitfires during WWII
He had never used TIG  (he went back to bikes after de-mob)
 Used to blast about on an old CB350 (with AMAL's  )
 Died of stomach cancer around 1978~79.
 Annealing aluminium is easy, just put some hand soap on reverse side.
 It turns brown around 400deg  and black around 450~475  )

[paulages]

 Annealing aluminium is easy, just put some hand soap on reverse side.
 It turns brown around 400deg  and black around 450~475  )

i learned by blowing soot onto the sheet and burning it off... when the soot burns, it's annealed.

[scrapvalue]

I've found a MIG set up for sale locally--Lincoln Pro Core 100 with the MIG conversion, just no regulator and bottle (which I'd have to buy).   He's asking $225--seems like a decent deal, actually...  Any thoughts?

Oh, and I do use sawzall and grinders to make my cuts already.

Sounds like it could be a good deal, but I am not familiar with that model. Do a little bit of searching on Google and you should be able to find out if it is a good deal or not.
Check with your local welding supply shop on how much a regulator and tank set up will run you.
You may find that you can do everything you want to do with the stick welder that is available to you. Especially if the owner knows how to use it properly and can show you the ropes.
And what you can't do with that, your friend that does the airplane work can surely do for you.
Sounds like you are your way to figuringthis stuff out, without making a lot of mistakes or spending money you don't need to.

[jessezm]

I've found a MIG set up for sale locally--Lincoln Pro Core 100 with the MIG conversion, just no regulator and bottle (which I'd have to buy).   He's asking $225--seems like a decent deal, actually...  Any thoughts?

Oh, and I do use sawzall and grinders to make my cuts already.

Sounds like it could be a good deal, but I am not familiar with that model. Do a little bit of searching on Google and you should be able to find out if it is a good deal or not.
Check with your local welding supply shop on how much a regulator and tank set up will run you.
You may find that you can do everything you want to do with the stick welder that is available to you. Especially if the owner knows how to use it properly and can show you the ropes.
And what you can't do with that, your friend that does the airplane work can surely do for you.
Sounds like you are your way to figuringthis stuff out, without making a lot of mistakes or spending money you don't need to.

Very good advice, thanks.  Lincoln and miller seem to be the preferred and trusted brand among the welding forums, so that's a good start.  The Pro 100 is just the flux wire model, but has a MIG/Gas upgrade, which the owner has added.  The tank and regulator would cost me another $100 or so.  Brand new, the set up would be about $600 with the conversion kit, so it does seem like a pretty good deal for a trusted model/machine.  I think you're right, though--I could certainly get by without it.  It's just that I've been totally drawn to metal working and fabrication for years (since high school), but have never seriously pursued it.  Maybe this would be a good way to get started?

[scrapvalue]

Ya, for that kind of money you can't really go wrong.
If you find out you don't want to pursue it, or want to upgrade to something better, you can always get your money back.

[bucky katt]

i use mine to heat metal to make it easier to bend, or to flatten the ends of round bar for example. lots of uses on a motorcycle but not cutting or welding

[Don R]

That mig is the deal, you're better off with a good used Lincoln than a discount store mig. They used to weld chrome moly aircraft frames with oxy acetylene, it can be done, aluminum too, you have to clean off the oxide however you weld it.

[754]

 Is an absoloot..BeeEEEAAWWWWCCHHHHH to anneal Aluminum using a Mig or a stick welder...


...






>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> running..>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

[crazypj]

Is an absoloot..BeeEEEAAWWWWCCHHHHH to anneal Aluminum using a Mig or a stick welder...


...






>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> running..>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

LOL,
I wish I'd said that 

PJ

[MaaseyRacer]

just used it today to braze fill some holes that were made to pull a stubborn dent out of a gas tank on my CB350F.  Here are some shots of my dad doing some brazing on my tank.  I have to admit the 350F tank is made of much thicker metal than I expected.  We tried so many other ways to pull that dent and ended up having to drill.  

Edit:  TIG welding would be much faster for this project and probably better.  Our TIG welder is out of commission right now so this is the next best bet.  

Safety note: My father was trained by a Navy welder while working at Kosman Specialties in the late 60s and 70s.  Please note the air hose pumping air through the tank the entire time. He has many years of practice, and take many precautions while welding.  However just because he wears a t-shirt and chooses not to wear gloves does not mean you should.  

[754]

maasey.. a studspotter/slide hammer can be your friend..

 let me say this, there is a few DIFFERENT welding processes, and they ALL have their place.. pick what works/fits you (your budget)...most comfortably..

[MaaseyRacer]

maasey.. a studspotter/slide hammer can be your friend..

This dent was so ridiculous.  A $15 side hammer and an hour of my pops' time and expertise is all it needed.  Too bad we ran out of gas at the end which makes wearing a t-shirt and no gloves so stupid.  The molten hot brass popping and spitting and my dad telling me to hold the tank still.  Priceless. 

[specweld]

MIG is only good for mig WELDING.
MMA (stick) is only good for stick WELDING.

OXY- ACETYLENE is good for WELDING, BRAZING,CUTTING,ANEALING,HEATING UP SIEZED NUTS & BOLTS, and loads of other uses around the workshop.

To aneal aluminium, use a large size tip and a soft flame (IE neutral flame, equal amounts of both gases), take a small piece of soft pine, a match will do, heat up the item but keep the flame moving IE. do not concentrate on any one area for too long, keep checking the temperature with the match (not the red end ) at first the match will leave no mark but as the heat builds up it will leave a light brown streak, as the job gets hotter the match will leave a dark brown streak and act as though you were writing on it with a felt tip pen,it has now reached anealing temp.
Take away the heat and allow to cool or quench in water (yes ,quench in water) and your item (usually head gaskets) is anealed.

For copper gaskets , just heat to a dull red and allow to cool, personaly I quench them in water as it cleans off the oxide/scale.

Aluminium can be welded with oxy-acet, but it is quite messy compared to TIG, as any flux left behind needs to be washed well off as it is quite acidic.

I get quite a few people asking me why they can't weld aluminium with their TIG set that they have just invested in, usually it's a case of wrong type, it must be an AC/DC TIG set.
Most TIG sets are DC only.

Set machine to AC
Switch on high frequency to CONTINUOUS mode
Most important is to clean off all oxide (even on almost new ally) as the oxide has approx. 3 times the melting temp of the oxide, so by the time you melt the oxide, the aluminium inside has already boiled,dropped out the bottom, and produced a mess on your workshop floor.
Hope this helps.

[jessezm]

I am leaning toward a 110volt Mig set up with shielding gas for best all-around project use.  The Hobart Handler 140, at $477, seems to be about the best deal out there at the moment, but also looking at Lincoln Weld Pak 140.  Hobart is owned by Miller and made in the U.S.  The cheaper Lincolns are built in Mexico. 

OR....  I may just hold off and quit obsessing over it!

[specweld]

OOPs! COCK-UP ALERT

last paragraph should  read 'melting temp of oxide is approx 3 times greater than that of the ALUMINIUM'.

Aluminium 660-690
Alu. oxide 2200-2300

[FargoFour]

I bought a Hobart 140 last year and love it. It comes with the regulator and hose for gas. You can get the small c25 bottles at Home Depot for around $120 and then it's like $17 to refill.

I built a small welding cart (with I think is mandatory when you first buy a welder) but didn't use the gas. I did some welding on my K1 at a buddy's farm this winter using mig with gas and what a difference it makes, hardly any splatter.

To make my long story longer, I like the Hobart.

Bud.

[kopptl]

oxy-acetelyne is fun, but takes lots of practice!!! its taken me a couple months to get good!! but you can do a lot with oxy-acetelyne!!!you can weld just about anything with it!!!