Topic: Found a hot motor'd bike, what do you guys think...

[Shenanigans]

First of all buy it out from under me and die.   Thanks.

I know the rule is usually "if you have to think about it..." but...

Here is the deal with the bike. Guy traded a car for it so his son would have a bike to ride with the father, the son never touched it so it sat for 2 years. I got the info about the bike from the guy who built it. Motor has been gone though top to bottom. High comp. 836, ported head, cam, bottom end blah blah blah. The whole deal. Bike runs and no major oil leaks.

I have been wanted to build a worked on motor for a while and it would be nice to just have it already done and running ready to ride bike.

My biggest concern is that it IS already done, as in I did not do it so I don't technically know if it was done proper.

Guy wants 2500 but I think 2000 is more likely.  Is it worth the risk. He says I can test ride it and I guess I could always pop out a plug and check the piston. What do you guys think?

[Duke McDukiedook]

Can he tell you what type of pistons and cams went in there?

[Stev-o]

I would take it for a nice long ride, 30 min minimum, that should give you some clues on it's reliability.
Is that a big ding on the tank? Looks pretty clean, seat looks odd, but might be comfy?
If he would take $1500, that would send be to the bank to get cash.

[754]

Ride it, if its scares you its worth it......

 is it 75 or 76 ?

[Alan F.]

If you know the builder... he should be able to tell you enough to base a decision on. If he's got the skills he's probably built other cars or bikes or something, ask around to see how his work is holding up maybe?

You can probably flip it next spring for a profit anyway.

[Captainkirk]

That's a lotta cabbage, brother!
Not that you wouldn't spend that much buying a stocker and doing the motor yourself...
If you can verify what was done, and that it was done correctly, then it would have to be your call.
Personally, I'd rather do the work myself. But then, that's just me.

[Shenanigans]

1975, I was saving up for a street fighter project but only because I wanted something fast. If it can scare me then we are good to go.

I am going to email him and ask a lot more questions. The guy who actually owns it does not know that much about it.

Problem with this bike compared to all the others is that (if the motor is in order) I would probably want to keep it. I know I would have at least that much into another bike getting it to that point anyways plus a ton more hassle. I have not had a 750 for a while and have been itching for one again.

I will see what he says tomorrow.

[scottly]

When I first test rode my 836 Seeley, it scared me; first with the awesome acceleration, next with the f'd-up rear brake. I bought it anyway, then immediately tore the whole bike apart to fix the lousy work the PO had done assembling the wonderful mix of parts he bought.
In your case, it boils down to how much confidence you have in the guy that put it together.

[Hasenkopf]

sweet.....um, whats his name???

[ChortlingSandcaster]

Even $2000 is too high.  That's not a very collectible cb750, even if it was in 100% *STOCK* condition.
And 'leaned on' vintage bikes nearly always require a discount off what a 100% stock bike brings.
REMEMBER -- always think about 'when I go to sell this, what about this bike will reduce the size of the pool of bike enthusiasts who would buy it?'  

Think about that bit -- you lose 1/2 the buyers with a modded motor.  People will look past paint, etc. but not a modded motor/electrical.

Here are some 'shortcomings' of this bike you are considering:

- no stock exhaust (will set you back $1000 EASY,  *if* you can find a set)
- no stock seat (at least $100, there's a NOS one on ebay for $899)
- no stock turn signals (not too expensive)
- motor is not stock, and the ease of verifying the work quality of the 'builder' is apparently not easy
- paint scheme is not stock



I just check the 'Completed Listings' on eBay ('completed' or finished auctions) and found a remarkably similar 1972 cb750 that got zero (0) bids and the starting price for the auction was $1800.

This bike that failed to get a single bid is similar to yours as follows:
- non-stock exhaust
- non-stock paint job
- big bore (900cc) kit
- non-stock shocks

Here's the verbiage from the failed auction:
===================================================================
"This motorcycle is in mint condition but will need some TLC from it sitting in the garage such as adjustments to carbs and any cables and brakes for proper operation. Everything works as far as electronics starter, lights, gages, horn and miscelaneous extras. Motor runs excelent! If I were to replace anything on the bike it would be tires. I have found them for under $100.00. I bought the motorcycle about 10 years ago from my neighbor who got it from his cousin that passed away. He was the original owner and took great care of the motorcycle. He put a lot of extras on the bike and it has a 900 kit which increases the horsepower the bike is FAST. I have lots of extra parts for the Honda such as windshield, different seat and a box a all kinds of items that go with the bike. In the 10 years that I have had the bike I have only road it 3 or 4 times. This is a great bike classic collector CB750 with a 900 kit! The bike will be sold as is and no warranty I would give because of the age and year never know when anything could go wrong Not that it will just never know. Also, any and all COST for the shipping and delivery or pick up will be the full resposability of the buyer."
====================================================================

I would not offer more than $1250.  Maybe not even more than $1000.

If however the bike was 100% stock, running, and reasonably low miles (under 35k) it could fetch $2000+.

But it's not a sandcast collectors item.  With the motor you have risk of it breaking.
Use that risk to negotiate a fair price.

Buying a leaned-on bike is *risky* because even if a reputable guy does the work --
a modified motor is implicitly less reliable because it is operating above the 110%-120%
'within design limits' range.   Okay for around town maybe if built right, but -- ask yourself this -- which would you rather take on a 350 mile trip, a 100% stock bike or a bike that has been
pumped.   If you are *reasonable* and *rational* meaning you're not going to come back with
"Yeah but my buddy has a cb400f putting out 100hp and he commutes to work 3 hours each way 5 days a week" -- if you're reasonable you will WANT A BIKE THAT IS STOCK.

Even a 'built' motor by a pro aint reliable like a stocker.   RISK.   Get a discount or walk.

[scottly]

Buying a leaned-on bike is *risky* because even if a reputable guy does the work --
a modified motor is implicitly less reliable because it is operating above the 110%-120%
'within design limits' range.   Okay for around town maybe if built right, but -- ask yourself this -- which would you rather take on a 350 mile trip, a 100% stock bike or a bike that has been
pumped. 

Immediately after I corrected the PO's mistakes, I took my Seeley on a 3000 mile round trip. My only breakdown was a failed oil pressure gauge (the needle broke off), however, both the stock, almost brand-new CBX's on the trip had charging system failures.

[Spanner 1]

I'd be scared of an 836 I haden't done myself...prolly genuine, but ya never know.....two grand !!!, N.O.P.E.  !!.................. IMO.

[Shenanigans]

Even $2000 is too high.  That's not a very collectible cb750, even if it was in 100% *STOCK* condition.
And 'leaned on' vintage bikes nearly always require a discount off what a 100% stock bike brings.
REMEMBER -- always think about 'when I go to sell this, what about this bike will reduce the size of the pool of bike enthusiasts who would buy it?' 

Think about that bit -- you lose 1/2 the buyers with a modded motor.  People will look past paint, etc. but not a modded motor/electrical.

Here are some 'shortcomings' of this bike you are considering:

- no stock exhaust (will set you back $1000 EASY,  *if* you can find a set)
- no stock seat (at least $100, there's a NOS one on ebay for $899)
- no stock turn signals (not too expensive)
- motor is not stock, and the ease of verifying the work quality of the 'builder' is apparently not easy
- paint scheme is not stock



I just check the 'Completed Listings' on eBay ('completed' or finished auctions) and found a remarkably similar cb750 that got zero (0) bids and the starting price for the auction was $1800.

This bike that failed to get a single bid is similar to yours as follows:
- non-stock exhaust
- non-stock paint job
- big bore (900cc) kit
- non-stock shocks

Here's the verbiage from the failed auction:
===================================================================
"This motorcycle is in mint condition but will need some TLC from it sitting in the garage such as adjustments to carbs and any cables and brakes for proper operation. Everything works as far as electronics starter, lights, gages, horn and miscelaneous extras. Motor runs excelent! If I were to replace anything on the bike it would be tires. I have found them for under $100.00. I bought the motorcycle about 10 years ago from my neighbor who got it from his cousin that passed away. He was the original owner and took great care of the motorcycle. He put a lot of extras on the bike and it has a 900 kit which increases the horsepower the bike is FAST. I have lots of extra parts for the Honda such as windshield, different seat and a box a all kinds of items that go with the bike. In the 10 years that I have had the bike I have only road it 3 or 4 times. This is a great bike classic collector CB750 with a 900 kit! The bike will be sold as is and no warranty I would give because of the age and year never know when anything could go wrong Not that it will just never know. Also, any and all COST for the shipping and delivery or pick up will be the full resposability of the buyer."
====================================================================

I would not offer more than $1250.  Maybe not even more than $1000.

If however the bike was 100% stock, running, and reasonably low miles (under 35k) it could fetch $2000+.

But it's not a sandcast collectors item.  With the motor you have risk of it breaking.
Use that risk to negotiate a fair price.

Buying a leaned-on bike is *risky* because even if a reputable guy does the work --
a modified motor is implicitly less reliable because it is operating above the 110%-120%
'within design limits' range.   Okay for around town maybe if built right, but -- ask yourself this -- which would you rather take on a 350 mile trip, a 100% stock bike or a bike that has been
pumped.   If you are *reasonable* and *rational* meaning you're not going to come back with
"Yeah but my buddy has a cb400f putting out 100hp and he commutes to work 3 hours each way 5 days a week" -- if you're reasonable you will WANT A BIKE THAT IS STOCK.

Even a 'built' motor by a pro aint reliable like a stocker.   RISK.   Get a discount or walk.

I am not buying this to flip. (I will save that for the flood of K8s out here) As far as desirability its right in the middle. Not a K0 but not an ugly K7-K8. If the motor is that big of a deal, I could drop the motor and toss a stocker in there if thats the difference between a buyer picking it up or leaving to keep searching. I have a pretty firm grasp on what the market for these bikes is out here and I am not too worried about taking a loss on this bike. I can make at least my money back if I wanted. If the bike had a stock motor it would be 1000-1400 tops which I agree with. I also know that I wont be taking any cross country trips on it. That's what my 550 is for.

Problem is your are comparing it to a stock bike in terms of reliability, price desirability etc. Which is what the majority of people are looking for, yes. But I am not looking for a stocker. It is close to what I am looking for, hence why I am willing to pay a little more since its what I am looking for. Of course I am going to offer first as absolutely low as I can without him telling me to leave. He might even take my first offer.

I do have a set of HM341 hanging on my wall taking up space though... 

You sound like you own a sandcast...   
 

[ChortlingSandcaster]

Buying a leaned-on bike is *risky* because even if a reputable guy does the work --
a modified motor is implicitly less reliable because it is operating above the 110%-120%
'within design limits' range.   Okay for around town maybe if built right, but -- ask yourself this -- which would you rather take on a 350 mile trip, a 100% stock bike or a bike that has been
pumped. 

Immediately after I corrected the PO's mistakes, I took my Seeley on a 3000 mile round trip. My only breakdown was a failed oil pressure gauge (the needle broke off), however, both the stock, almost brand-new CBX's on the trip had charging system failures.

Like I said, 'common sense, reasonable.'

Thing is -- common sense is not commonplace. 
Let's drill down on this.   Consider the following two assertions.

1)  "A leaned-on modified cb750 motor is more reliable *almost all the time* than the stock cb750 motor, all things being equal."

2) "A leaned-on modified cb750 motor *can* be more reliable than a stock cb750 motor, all things being equal, but -- chances are -- the stock motor, of which much engineering and testing was done by the factory, will be more reliable than a leaned-on modified motor."

Sure, you can find a leaned-on modified cb750 motor that is MORE RELIABLE than the heavily-tested-in-Japan stock cb750 motor.

BUT PROBABLY NOT VERY OFTEN.

The standard design methodology for vehicles is this:

1) design and build prototypes
2) establish their maximum operating range and tolerances
3) de-tune them so that they are reliable (to reduce warranty claims).

When you pump a motor you just blew away Step 3 there.
In fact, Honda got so many warranty claims on the 69-70 cb750 that they detuned the motor.
Warranty claims wipe out all the profits and then some.  Almost vehicles sold for consumer use are detuned to reduce warranty claims and improve reliability.   You pump a motor?  You lose reliability.  And I aint buyin a pumped bike without a discount.  And about 1/2 the bike-buying folks out there feel the same.


Like I said -- BE REASONABLE.   Citing one anecdotal case where a leaned on bike was more reliable than a stocker -- sure, I can do that too. 

But NOT FREQUENTLY. 

If modded motors were NORMALLY more reliable than stock motors -- we'd all be giving our wives racing cars because women are (normally!) hard on vehicles and maintenance.

[Ryan6838]

I want a little lower price but if you trust the work done on it then its your money. It looks solid ive seen alot in the 1k to 1.5k range that didn't look as solid. Id go over it realy good if your going to pay 2k for it just to see if its up to snuff. In my mind the bikes for you, ride what you want don't think about the resale price. Get what you want and ride till the wheels fall off. I didn't get were i am today by doing what everyone told me lol. If its done right a good cafe or chop can appeal to more buyers. The collector community is smaller then the everyday rider community.

[dave500]

if it looks like what you want and rides well take a compression tester with you,it looks good in the photo,not all worked motors are un reliable,if you keep revving them hard then youll have trouble,always ride the first few miles gently till their fully hot before thrashing them.,dont live in the red line.plenty of new bikes are having issues with top ends wearing out,electrical trouble etc.

[Hush]

It's rubbish too expensive and I hate it, take my advice and walk away.
By the way, what was his address again?

Seriously, that bike with that much going for it even with unknown workmanship, in New Zealand $5-8000 dollars.

[JLeather]

ChortlingSandcaster, I don't imagine the OP is interested in buying this bike to restore it to stock factory condition.  It's always cheapest to start with a bike that's as close to stock as possible for a restoration, and this ain't it.  So saying that it's gonna cost him $1000 for new pipes and all this money for paint and a seat and all is nonsense.  You buy a bike like this because it's value is already low enough that you don't mind modifying it and having fun.  Remember fun?  Fun, for me and many others around here, is taking anything (motorcycle, car, lawnmower maybe?) and doing something with it that is a) unique and b) challenging.  Taking a bike that did 125 mph and making it do 150mph on a straightaway.  Taking a bike that handled "ok" and using frame bracing, modern technology, and some elbow grease and making it handle "great".  Not everyone is interested in restoring every last CB back to factory specs.

Now, rant aside, I can't tell you the number of "836, cammed, hot motors" that have been bought, sold, and inquired about around here that when opened up were 30k mile stockers.  If you didn't build it, and the guy doesn't have pictures and receipts, you can't prove anything.  You can rent a boroscope at Advance Auto for the afternoon and look into one of the spark-plug holes and check the piston domes.  You can also loosen and raise the valve cover enough to see if the cam is marked at the end with a maker/grind rating.  If you can't do this, or the owner won't let you, then assume it's stock and go from there.  IMO, it's worth the gamble at $1500 if it runs well and sounds hot, but keep in mind that the right exhaust can make a stock bike sound hotter (and these motors sound pretty hot stock as it is).  Honestly, at $2k it's a stretch even if you prove it's an 836.  $2500 is reaching unless he's got all the receipts and everything, cuz that motor has maybe a grand into it counting machine work for the parts listed, and that bike with a stock motor is maybe $1500 (maybe) so for $2500 you can find a cheaper bike and build a motor yourself.

[MRieck]

ChortlingSandcaster, I don't imagine the OP is interested in buying this bike to restore it to stock factory condition.  It's always cheapest to start with a bike that's as close to stock as possible for a restoration, and this ain't it.  So saying that it's gonna cost him $1000 for new pipes and all this money for paint and a seat and all is nonsense.  You buy a bike like this because it's value is already low enough that you don't mind modifying it and having fun.  Remember fun?  Fun, for me and many others around here, is taking anything (motorcycle, car, lawnmower maybe?) and doing something with it that is a) unique and b) challenging.  Taking a bike that did 125 mph and making it do 150mph on a straightaway.  Taking a bike that handled "ok" and using frame bracing, modern technology, and some elbow grease and making it handle "great".  Not everyone is interested in restoring every last CB back to factory specs.

Now, rant aside, I can't tell you the number of "836, cammed, hot motors" that have been bought, sold, and inquired about around here that when opened up were 30k mile stockers.  If you didn't build it, and the guy doesn't have pictures and receipts, you can't prove anything.  You can rent a boroscope at Advance Auto for the afternoon and look into one of the spark-plug holes and check the piston domes.  You can also loosen and raise the valve cover enough to see if the cam is marked at the end with a maker/grind rating.  If you can't do this, or the owner won't let you, then assume it's stock and go from there.  IMO, it's worth the gamble at $1500 if it runs well and sounds hot, but keep in mind that the right exhaust can make a stock bike sound hotter (and these motors sound pretty hot stock as it is).  Honestly, at $2k it's a stretch even if you prove it's an 836.  $2500 is reaching unless he's got all the receipts and everything, cuz that motor has maybe a grand into it counting machine work for the parts listed, and that bike with a stock motor is maybe $1500 (maybe) so for $2500 you can find a cheaper bike and build a motor yourself.

  John....you can put a dial indicator on a retainer, turn the engine and check for lift and duration. A little easier.

[ChortlingSandcaster]

ChortlingSandcaster, I don't imagine the OP is interested in buying this bike to restore it to stock factory condition.  It's always cheapest to start with a bike that's as close to stock as possible for a restoration, and this ain't it.  So saying that it's gonna cost him $1000 for new pipes and all this money for paint and a seat and all is nonsense. 

No I totally get the scene.  "Likes it in its current condition."

Here's my point.

Regardless of the intended use, THERE IS A MARKET for modded cb750s.  There is a overlapping market for un-modded cb750s *but the pricing levels are not the same.*  I pointed out a reason for that -- reliability concerns of the average buyer of an old bike.

If you will review my reasoning it was TO ADVISE about the current market pricing level, my intent was to INFORM ABOUT THE CURRENT MARKET LEVEL so the guy doesn't overpay.  That was in line with what he asked us to help him with.

Here are modded bikes I bought recently.

A month ago I bought a mint-condition 1989 gsxr1100.  Leaned on heavily, motor/clutch/brakes.  I paid $1500.  The stock bike marketplace would demand $3000+/- for it.  This bike is such a wheelie monster you would love it.  But it is heavily modified to get it there.

In January of this year I bought a 1986 gsxr1100.  Hugely leaned on, in very good condition with nicely done custom paint.   Motor mods galore, 199x upside-down forks, the '86 wheels and swingarm updated with 199x wheels and swingarm, etc.  I paid $1000, the seller wanted $1200, I offered him $1000 and got it.    18k miles.   Same bike in stock trim is $3000+/- here in California.

You see folks, this poster's *original* question was 'what's it worth' and my sole intent was to inform about that -- about what it's worth.

I pointed out a quite similar unsold cb750 with similar mods that went unsold on eBay *in the U.S.*
The seller could not get even ONE bid at his starting auction price of $1800.


My sole purpose was to help him make a distinction between

1) the market pricing levels for stockers

2) the market pricing levels for non-stockers, AND I pointed out the common reason why the pricing is lower and the market is smaller for non-stockers.

THE MARKETS ARE DIFFERENT for a stocker and non-stock, especially a motor-modded bike due to the reliability risk.  His question was about 'what's it worth' and I pointed out that the stock bike pricing is *different* from the modded bike pricing.



Let me say that a different way.

Imagine a guy is selling a modded bike.
I know what this type of seller hears when he runs his ad.   I know that when people show up to look at his modded bike, he's getting some haggling.  And AT FIRST the seller refuses to budge.  Then the modded bike goes unsold and he drops his price and it sells.

Because of my knowledge of what these sellers confront when they try to sell a modded bike --  I USE THAT to negotiate when I buy one.  Yep, I actually use the 'modifications are hard to sell' argument when I'm buying a leaned-on bike.

And that is 100% fair.   Because that's the market.   Most people don't like buying a hot-rodded bike.

Hence that eBay seller got zero bids for a 1972 cb750 for asking price of $1800.

This poster's question was 'what's it worth', so........here are the recent sales of like-cb750s from the 'Completed listings' on eBay:

- bone-stock 1972 cb750 got a max offer of $2075 from 24 bids on May 4, 2010
- a modded bobber 1972 cb750 got a max bid of $1499 on May 2, 2010
- bone-stock 1973 cb750 got a max offer of $3500 on May 2, 2010 -- HAD ONLY 7500 MILES THOUGH
- a modded 1973 cb750 with 14k miles got a max offer of $1625 on May 1, 2010 NO ENGINE MODS


So his question was 'what's it worth' and I pointed out 'it's modded, pay less for it' which is in line with the 2 markets for un-modded bikes and modded bikes.   

I'm not a purist, was simply answering his 'how do I arrive at a fair market price' question.

[754]

Ok , some cams are marked between lobes, like Norris, in one we got this year. Basically if you cant FEEL its been modded then that is worth nothing.
 Chortling, obviouslly you are a bike seller, but you missed something here..
 Its a CB750.. do not compare to gixxer or other more modern superbikes. It is the most underbuilt motor out there, that is it can be modded far further than the modern stuff, and take it.. The warranty issues are not  caused by HP issues, its other stuff.

 I have personally rode a 25 yr old  tired 836 on a 900+ mile  trip, and back from there. there is another one here that has been together longer. Last year, I took a stocker on same trip, hope its the last time.. So no, I would not rather ride the stocker.
 Just because some of your buys were cheap and you easily beat them down, does not mean every owner will drop price that easy.
 Yeah I been screwed on a big motor buy, but it really depends on how good it runs. I think when speaking of reliability Chortling is thinking Henry Abe 900 kit, not an 836.. .. with the 900 his concerns ring true.
 Chortling, how much today do you think it cost to do an 836.. sust the bore kit?

[Hannibal Smith]

Just buy the darn thing. In 6 months you won't remember what you paid for it..... or care.

[ChortlingSandcaster]

Chortling, how much today do you think it cost to do an 836.. sust the bore kit?

Herein lies the dichotomy, you've really hit the nail on the head 754.
The cost of modding a bike cannot be got back.  No way.
Most of us know that. 

But the companies who sell mod parts aint gonna tell you, no way.
They assume you KNOW that you are personalizing your bike, not
trying to INCREASE ITS VALUE.

I know what bore kits cost.  I 100% know you are personalizing your bike for you.
Very few will pay you for your personal choices on your bike.  Very few.

Let me use an analogy from Real Estate.
You buy a 3bed/2bath in a neighborhood of very similar tract homes and the
comparable sales for recently-sold homes in that neighborhood were $250,000+/-.

You get a good deal, you buy your place for $210,000.
Now you 'invest' $200,000 on marble entry, granite bathrooms and kitchen, you spend
$100,000 on the kitchen remodel alone (easy to do, I sold remodeling for a living).
New deck, new landscaping, the works.   You now have a $210,000 home with
another $200,000 in mods.

Now you have $210,000 + $200,000 = $410,000 in the place.   ITS NOT WORTH $410,000.
The market, the people who want to buy that type of home,
will see that the market price is around $250,000+/-.

You see folks, the truth is -- and most of you know this -- you can almost NEVER get your money back from parts and labor costs on a modded bike.  Custom bikes like Harleys -- different story.  But Jap imports go down in value after a mod.

It's just the PERCEPTION of most buyers that an old bike is gonna be less reliable.  And, an old bike that's been leaned on-- you see the point.

I 100% know what it costs to build a bike.
That's why I don't do it.  I let others spend all the money on the  mods.
Then I use the facts like in those eBay listings I showed, I use the fact that
the market won't pay for those mods, that most modded bikes go for a discount --
I let others pay for all the mods then I buy them on the cheap.

I'm just like Shenanigans.  He said that he feels he's getting a deal 'because I know what it would cost to get me those mods he already put in.'

I'm just like Shenanigans in that regard.  I love modded bikes.  But I have sold *and* bought modded bikes.  My strategy is just like Shenanigans.  I LET OTHER PEOPLE OVERSPEND ON THE MODS.  Then I use the fact that few buyers will pay for those mods as leverage.

I've been on *both* ends of the transaction.   I know what sellers go through.  Buyers are almost NEVER willing to pay for your mods.

Look at it this way.  You put your personal touch on your bike.  Common sense tells you "My personal preference is MINE, not everyone elses."

As to the 'cb750s are different' nope.

Just look at those ebay listings I posted.  And go check 'Completed Listings' on ebay.

THAT'S THE MARKET.

Shenanigans, offer $1500 tops.  In this economy you'll probably get it.

[Stev-o]

Just buy the darn thing. In 6 months you won't remember what you paid for it..... or care.

I agree! You know you want it. Plus it's only $2K, you could literally piss that away in beer money in the next year or so and have nothing!!

[Toxic]

When did buying any bike become such a "well thought out" process?

Some excellant points have been raised for sure.

... but nobody needs an old CB750, you got ot want it.  It's about passion for a certain type of bike.

Verify what is really in the motor then ride it and if puts a big 'ol  grin on your face it's worth every penny.

I totally get your point about you not being the one that built it.