Author Topic: just passing it along  (Read 4773 times)

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Offline blaster802

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just passing it along
« on: May 15, 2010, 04:39:43 AM »
Hey guys
yesterday I go to start up my bike and no lights no ignition I'm thinking what the heck. So I start out checking battery for juice got it  check 15 amp fuse good. Alls I had was the parking tailight. Well I dig into the 4 prong connector at the ignition switch and the black wire prong was melted this has to be it sure enough it was. I put a jumper wire around the connector runs perfect. For some time now I had one of those bugs where the bike just didn't seem to be 100%. Now I think I got it. Some symptoms I had were very cold blooded on start-up had to use heavy choke didn't seem to fire on all cyclinders but would clear up. My baby is a 71 750 now we are both happy. Nice day here SE Pa. time to put some miles on.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: just passing it along
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2010, 08:44:30 AM »
Since about 2007 or so, EMGO has been marketing the lighter-duty CB350/450/500/550 switch as a CB750 switch by just changing the connector. They outwardly look the same: inwardly, the 750 contacts (and the BLACK wire) are sized for 15 amps, where the other bikes are sized for 11 amps max. I have seen MANY of these switches fail. A local Honda shop was buying them and putting a Honda logo on the bag, writing the 750 part number on it, too, and selling them: I've seen 4 of these in my garage since then with melted wires, contacts, and/or the BLACK wire unsoldered from the back of the keyswitch from the overheating.

This is just another example of Chinese reverse-engineering by unknowing (or uncaring) designers who see an outward similarity (of the keyswitch) and make a bad product out of it.
 >:(

To make matters worse, Honda quit supplying the proper keyswitch during 2008: I don't know if they have started it back up again or not.

To resolve the problem completely and on the safer side, I started making "relay kits" for the main power feed on the bikes that I build. I know that some day in the future, an owner will wear out his keyswitch (the tumblers do wear out inside) and get a new one, only to find this new problem. The relay gets installed either under the seat (K models) or in the headlight bucket (F models) and the BLACK wire at the keyswitch gets clipped, just on the harness side of the connector. The BLACK from the connector now goes to the coil on the relay (other side of coil to GREEN wires). The clipped-off harness BLACK then goes to the switched side of the relay. The input (or 'supply') side of the relay goes back to the main fuse, and I usually run this as a 16 AWG RED wire along the harness on F bikes, or just splice in at the fuse for K bikes (under the seat, at the fuse).

This way, you can use the crummiest, cheapest, made-in-Lower-Slumbovia keyswitch, and the bike will work fine. It's becoming more common, so I added this in the Electrical section in the book.
 ;D
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline mrrch

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Re: just passing it along
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2011, 11:39:24 AM »
Is there a wire diagram of this? I can't get my brain to process this. ???
my build

1977 CB750K WITH 1976 CB750F ENGINE

Offline mrbreeze

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Re: just passing it along
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2011, 11:50:56 AM »
+1 on a diagram.
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Offline Ryan6838

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Re: just passing it along
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2011, 12:08:54 PM »
Remember seeing that in this nice hard covers book my wife got me for chirstmas. Writen by some Mark guy.  ;D
1978 cb750k

Offline swellguy

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Re: just passing it along
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2011, 01:23:04 PM »
Mark just made one of these for me, very nice little package that's simple to install.
This project started in confusion and will end in disarray.
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http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=76471.msg852227#msg852227

Offline Gaither

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Re: just passing it along
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2011, 01:27:40 PM »
Hondaman

If you are selling "Ignition Relay Kits", give us a price.

It's a great idea! It takes all of the elec load off of the ign sw.
Gaither ('77 CB550F)

Offline albertaboy

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Re: just passing it along
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2011, 02:01:37 PM »
Hondaman

If you are selling "Ignition Relay Kits", give us a price.

It's a great idea! It takes all of the elec load off of the ign sw.

I'd buy one Hondaman, and your fuse upgrade too.  ;D
1975 CB750K
No where to go and all day to get there.
My build thread: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=131424.0

Offline faux fiddy

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Re: just passing it along
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2011, 02:40:56 PM »
Since about 2007 or so, EMGO has been marketing the lighter-duty CB350/450/500/550 switch as a CB750 switch by just changing the connector. They outwardly look the same: inwardly, the 750 contacts (and the BLACK wire) are sized for 15 amps, where the other bikes are sized for 11 amps max. I have seen MANY of these switches fail. A local Honda shop was buying them and putting a Honda logo on the bag, writing the 750 part number on it, too, and selling them: I've seen 4 of these in my garage since then with melted wires, contacts, and/or the BLACK wire unsoldered from the back of the keyswitch from the overheating.

This is just another example of Chinese reverse-engineering by unknowing (or uncaring) designers who see an outward similarity (of the keyswitch) and make a bad product out of it.
 >:(

To make matters worse, Honda quit supplying the proper keyswitch during 2008: I don't know if they have started it back up again or not.

To resolve the problem completely and on the safer side, I started making "relay kits" for the main power feed on the bikes that I build. I know that some day in the future, an owner will wear out his keyswitch (the tumblers do wear out inside) and get a new one, only to find this new problem. The relay gets installed either under the seat (K models) or in the headlight bucket (F models) and the BLACK wire at the keyswitch gets clipped, just on the harness side of the connector. The BLACK from the connector now goes to the coil on the relay (other side of coil to GREEN wires). The clipped-off harness BLACK then goes to the switched side of the relay. The input (or 'supply') side of the relay goes back to the main fuse, and I usually run this as a 16 AWG RED wire along the harness on F bikes, or just splice in at the fuse for K bikes (under the seat, at the fuse).

This way, you can use the crummiest, cheapest, made-in-Lower-Slumbovia keyswitch, and the bike will work fine. It's becoming more common, so I added this in the Electrical section in the book.
 ;D

+1 for proactive (not the zit creme stuff on the late night infomercials)
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Offline socalenduro

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Re: just passing it along
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2011, 07:59:41 AM »
i am finding a running theme of hondaman answering ALL of my questions....

my EMGO switch just melted on the inside wires, which makes PERFECT sense that the wire cant handle the load

Offline HondaMan

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Re: just passing it along
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2011, 11:22:50 AM »
Hondaman

If you are selling "Ignition Relay Kits", give us a price.

It's a great idea! It takes all of the elec load off of the ign sw.

They are about $25 plus shipping. There are 3 variants, depending on the bike you have, so I need a PM from you with a description of the bike's model (and if the harness is the right one for that bike). This particular 'kit' is called the Keyswitch Saver. I als make them for the OFF-LO-HI headlight switch on the early bikes, and another type to help improve things with those bikes that kill the headlight during START.
 ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Gaither

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Re: just passing it along
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2011, 05:36:51 PM »
Hondaman

PM sent.

Thanks

Gaither
Gaither ('77 CB550F)

Offline mrrch

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Re: just passing it along
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2011, 12:20:00 PM »
Does points or electronic ignition make a difference?
my build

1977 CB750K WITH 1976 CB750F ENGINE

Offline vames

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Re: just passing it along
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2011, 02:00:20 PM »
Does anyone have a writeup of what it takes to disassemble an old OEM ignition switch and clean the contacts?

Offline GammaFlat

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Re: just passing it along
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2011, 02:51:23 PM »
Does points or electronic ignition make a difference?

We could get into coil saturation using different ignition switching techniques (points vs. electronic) but I think you're going to see very similar results with either.  The bigger difference would be if you used 3 ohm coils as opposed to 5. 
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K7 
Suzuki GN400 - Ignition fixed!
03 KLR650 - Doesn't do anything very well but.. well.. does everything.

Offline Gaither

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Re: just passing it along
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2011, 04:23:05 PM »
Vames

Two-Tired did a very comprehensive "How To" on reconditioning Ign  Sw's including good pics a few months back. I thought it was in Tricks & Tips but I can't locate it.

Anyone know where the heck it went/is???

I know it T-T did it as I used it to recond my OEM Ign Sw.
Gaither ('77 CB550F)

Offline Grnrngr

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Re: just passing it along
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2011, 04:54:26 PM »
Does points or electronic ignition make a difference?

We could get into coil saturation using different ignition switching techniques (points vs. electronic) but I think you're going to see very similar results with either.  The bigger difference would be if you used 3 ohm coils as opposed to 5. 

another difference might be how often you have to adjust/replace the points (every time they wear out) vs how often you have to adjust/replace the pointless system (rarely/never)...
'72 CB750-K2 "PopCycle"
'73 CB750-K2 "Barney"
'77 CB750A   
'83 Virago 500 (red)
'83 Virago 500 (black)

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Offline Prospect

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Re: just passing it along
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2011, 05:05:11 AM »
From what I'm reading the high current is only present on the  K3-K8 on the 750 and the K0-K1 have less current.  If so then the EMGO switch will be fine in a K1?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 04:49:34 PM by Prospect »
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