Author Topic: CB750K3: Chain and final drive sprockets lesson?  (Read 6252 times)

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Offline GreenHorn

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CB750K3: Chain and final drive sprockets lesson?
« on: May 19, 2010, 02:28:28 PM »
I have a '73 CB750K3- I believe the front and rear sprockets are stock (haven't checked yet), and would like a lot more 'get-up-and-go' from idle or slow speeds.  I don't get on the highway much (65 mph in Ohio and PA).  Mainly I stick on the back roads (55mph), so I would like good rideability up to, maybe say, 70mph.  And before you say it, I don't really care about gas mileage- this is my toy, not my daily driver.

Suggestions on front/rear sprocket combinations?

Also, I've noticed posts on 530 & 630 chains.  From what I can tell, a 530 is 5/8's link (center to center of the cross-bars I assume??) and a 630 is 6/8's or 3/4".

What does the 30 in 530 or 630 mean?
What does 'O type' and 'non O type' mean?

Thanks guys!
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Offline MCRider

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Re: CB750K3: Chain and final drive sprockets lesson?
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2010, 02:36:58 PM »
I lifted this post from another forum: Can't confirm its right, but it sounds good.
It's all to do with 1/8's and a bloody daft system of measuring "chains" going back into the dark ages.

Basically the first digit is the pitch in 1/8's. The second (and third) is the roller width also in erm 1/8's.

So a 520 chain has a pitch of 5 lots of 1/8......5/8"
Roller width (and this is where it get stupid) is 2 lots of eights, ie 1/4"

So why not a 52 chain then I hear you all ask......

Well what if the roller is not 1/4 but slightly wider....say 5/16".....very common that.
Got it yet....5/16".....2 and a half lots of 1/8's.........2.5......
Yes it's a 525 chain.

Tada!!

Bloody stupid system but basically a 530 chain has a roller width 1/8" wider than a 520. Thus whilst the chains and teeth will mesh, a small chain won't fit onto a big sprocket.
And it goes without saying you match the width of sprocket to the chain. Unless you are upgrading the bikes power output then you may be going for thicker sprockets and chain for obvious reasons. But then you will still run a matched set.

Not critical as a wide chain will run in a narrow sprocket but there is no advantage to be gained.

Little chart...

Chain Size... Pitch .....Inner Width - roller

415............. 1/2 .......3/16
420............. 1/2 .......1/4
520.............. 5/8...... 1/4
525............. 5/8 .......5/16
530............. 5/8 .......3/8
630.............. 3/4...... 3/8

And so on...Try getting the Suzuki 532 chain...lol

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by dukenosher; 05-08-2010 at 11:48 AM..
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Offline MCRider

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Re: CB750K3: Chain and final drive sprockets lesson?
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2010, 02:40:50 PM »
As far as "O" and "Non O" I think you may mean O ring and non-Oring?

Non-Oring is traditional chain.

An O Ring chain has an Oring inserted at manufacture on the pin between the outside plate and the inner link. The pins are lubed from the factory and the Orings hold the lube in. Much less maintenance is required. If the Orings are never damaged, there is no need to lube the chain. Just keep it clean with solvent. Some apply lube to the outside of the chain just so they don't feel like they are ignoring it   ;)  and to provide lube between the chain and the sprocket.

But the chain itself is pre-lubed, period.
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Offline andy750

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Re: CB750K3: Chain and final drive sprockets lesson?
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2010, 03:19:44 PM »
Suggestions on front/rear sprocket combinations?

Stock is 18/48. So try 17/48. This will give you quicker acceleration off the line.
Current bikes
1. CB750K4: Long distance bike, 17 countries and counting...2001 - Trans-USA-Mexico, 2003 - European Tour, 2004 - SOHC Easy Rider Trip , 2008 - Adirondack Tour 2-up , 2013 - Tail of the Dragon Tour , 2017: 836 kit install and bottom end rebuild. And rebirth: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173213.msg2029836.html#msg2029836
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Offline 333

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Re: CB750K3: Chain and final drive sprockets lesson?
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2010, 03:21:04 PM »
Sorry MC, not true.  O-ring chain still requires lubing, just not near as often.  But like any chain, it needs to be lubed when it's warmed up, after a decent ride.  When you lube a warm chain(O or non O), the lube gets sucked in as the chain cools. The next morning, take a rag sprayed with WD40 and wipe off the excess.  The chain doesn't need lube on the outside.

The other thing that needs to be addressed is when replacing sprockets, the chain needs to be replaced as well.  These wear at the same rate, and if one is replaced without the other, the new part will wear out in about 10% of it's normal life(depending on how worn the old parts are).
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Offline MCRider

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Re: CB750K3: Chain and final drive sprockets lesson?
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2010, 03:43:51 PM »
Sorry MC, not true.  O-ring chain still requires lubing, just not near as often.  But like any chain, it needs to be lubed when it's warmed up, after a decent ride.  When you lube a warm chain(O or non O), the lube gets sucked in as the chain cools. The next morning, take a rag sprayed with WD40 and wipe off the excess.  The chain doesn't need lube on the outside.

The other thing that needs to be addressed is when replacing sprockets, the chain needs to be replaced as well.  These wear at the same rate, and if one is replaced without the other, the new part will wear out in about 10% of it's normal life(depending on how worn the old parts are).
I'll accept a difference of opinion. I did a search on "does an Oring chain need lube". I found a reference to the "drawing in effect" from a mechainc site, but not from an "official source".  Here's an interview with PJ of PJ Lubes. He says the chain manufacturers do a good job sealing the lube in. Their lube is not designed or intended to get behind the ORing (I assume that would be defeating the whole purpose). Their lube is to get all around the Oring, thus preserving it which makes sense. Also keeping the ORing clean, free of grit is important.
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/howto/122_0506_motorcycle_chain_lube/index.html
I'll continue to clean and lube mine for preservation and the sprocket chain interface. I would have to see hard evidence to convince me that lube can go from the outside to the inside of an ORing. If it did than the reverse would be true and the whole concept is flawed.

Here's some quotes lifted from the article:
"MC: Does the Blue Label have any sort of penetrating carrier to get behind the O-ring, then wick away to leave the lubricant inside?
PJH: Not to get behind the O-ring, but to get all over it. We do not want to penetrate the O-ring seal. The chain manufacturers have done an excellent job of developing a good internal lube."
and
"MC: If an O-ring chain lube doesn't need to get lubricant past the O-rings and inside the chain, what does it do for the chain then?
PJH: It keeps the chain from rusting, it lubricates the O-ring itself and it does provide some cushion effect between the chain roller and the sprocket, which reduces wear on the sprockets and increases the chain's life."
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 03:48:44 PM by MCRider »
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: CB750K3: Chain and final drive sprockets lesson?
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2010, 04:23:01 PM »
People use a "Chain Wax" on O ring chains. This is done to inhibit rust.
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Offline CBNJ74

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Re: CB750K3: Chain and final drive sprockets lesson?
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2013, 10:09:16 AM »
Bring this one back from the dead.

So yesterday I replaced the front and rear sprockets. I have the chain on but have yet to rivet it closed. Before I installed the new chain I laid it side by side next to the old one. I noticed that stock chain was at least a few links longer than the new one. Could it have stretched that much? I should have counted the links but I doubt the chain is original from the factory.

The new chain I am installing is an Omega o-ring 530x100. Did I buy the wrong chain size???
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Offline bjatwood

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Re: CB750K3: Chain and final drive sprockets lesson?
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2013, 10:44:00 AM »
I believe 100 links is for a standard chain length, O-ring might be 102...
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Offline MCRider

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Re: CB750K3: Chain and final drive sprockets lesson?
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2013, 10:56:43 AM »
I believe 100 links is for a standard chain length, O-ring might be 102...
Length determined by sprockets. Standard sprcts (18/48) = 100L. ORing or standard.

AS to stretching...lay the 2 chains side by side and match up the pins. IS one really longer than the other?

Stretching (which is really elongated bushings from wear) wouldn't give the appearance of more than a link, IMO.
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Offline andy750

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Re: CB750K3: Chain and final drive sprockets lesson?
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2013, 11:19:48 AM »
There has been a lot of confusion over the years whether its 100/102/104 links for the CB750 and so your old chain may well be a 102. However as Ron (MCrider) notes the stock length is 100 links which will work fine. Report back here if its too short!!  ;)

good luck
Andy

Current bikes
1. CB750K4: Long distance bike, 17 countries and counting...2001 - Trans-USA-Mexico, 2003 - European Tour, 2004 - SOHC Easy Rider Trip , 2008 - Adirondack Tour 2-up , 2013 - Tail of the Dragon Tour , 2017: 836 kit install and bottom end rebuild. And rebirth: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173213.msg2029836.html#msg2029836
2. CB750/810cc K2  - road racer with JMR worked head 71 hp
3. Yamaha Tenere T700 2022

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Offline CBNJ74

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Re: CB750K3: Chain and final drive sprockets lesson?
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2013, 01:12:08 PM »
I am using standard sprocket sizes so looks like I am good to go. I am however having a hell of time riveting it. I'm not quite squashing the pins enough to give me the warm and fuzzies. I don't have a micrometer to measure the size of the rivet.

This is my first chain job so I may just use the clip instead. I'm using the motion pro tools so I'm not sure how well they rate around here. The breaker and press worked great. The riveter not so great. I'm probably doing something wrong.
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Offline bjatwood

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Re: CB750K3: Chain and final drive sprockets lesson?
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2013, 04:55:18 PM »
This is a snip of GORDON'S post from 2007 on CB750 Chain length. That is where my info was obtained MC  ;)
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: CB750K3: Chain and final drive sprockets lesson?
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2013, 04:28:07 AM »
You can measure the stretch just for kicks and giggles:

- drag the chain straight across the floor and measure the length
- push the chain together to eliminate play in bushings and measure it again.

Dang, I forgot what was the maximum safe stretch - anybody?
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Offline Dream750

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Re: CB750K3: Chain and final drive sprockets lesson?
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2013, 05:29:29 AM »
This spec comes from the 1970’s Honda CB750 shop manual for a 530 chain.

(double click on image)

Offline 70CB750

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Re: CB750K3: Chain and final drive sprockets lesson?
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2013, 05:41:57 AM »
Thank you, Wile E.  ;D

Launchpad is from Disney, but we toons stick together, right?   ;D ;D ;D
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Offline Dream750

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Re: CB750K3: Chain and final drive sprockets lesson?
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2013, 07:44:29 AM »
You’re welcome 70CB750. We toons do stick together!  ;)

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Offline 70CB750

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Re: CB750K3: Chain and final drive sprockets lesson?
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2013, 09:24:09 AM »
Disney came to my country full force  after the wall crumbled down - 1989 - and Lunchpad was always my hero, LOL!
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Offline CBNJ74

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Re: CB750K3: Chain and final drive sprockets lesson?
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2013, 04:57:57 AM »
Thanks everyone for your responses. Here's the latest and greatest.

I put everything back together last night and I noticed how tight the chain is. I have set past the first notch and still pretty stiff with very little play. I haven't test rode it yet. Should I expect the chain to loosen up after the first couple of hundred miles? The original chain went a few notches in on the swing arm.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: CB750K3: Chain and final drive sprockets lesson?
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2013, 05:40:10 AM »
Thanks everyone for your responses. Here's the latest and greatest.

I put everything back together last night and I noticed how tight the chain is. I have set past the first notch and still pretty stiff with very little play. I haven't test rode it yet. Should I expect the chain to loosen up after the first couple of hundred miles? The original chain went a few notches in on the swing arm.
The wheel is pushed all the way forward? You have an 18/48 sprocket set? The chain should be at proper setting. Don't count on it loosening up. IT's steel on steel and the only way it can loosen up is if something is wearing out.  IMO
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Offline CBNJ74

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Re: CB750K3: Chain and final drive sprockets lesson?
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2013, 05:46:57 AM »
Yes it's a brand new 18/48 set along with new chain. Not all the way but definitely sitting right in front of the first notch as per the chain tensioner. 

No I have to go and count links and teeth. Grrrrrr!!!!
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Offline 754

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Re: CB750K3: Chain and final drive sprockets lesson?
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2013, 07:03:29 AM »
Usually a manufacturer  will state wether chain is pre-strtched or not.. If it is, it wont require adjustment soon after install. If it is not, it will need it very soon..
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Offline CBNJ74

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Re: CB750K3: Chain and final drive sprockets lesson?
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2013, 07:06:16 AM »
Usually a manufacturer  will state wether chain is pre-strtched or not.. If it is, it wont require adjustment soon after install. If it is not, it will need it very soon..

I'll check the box.

Thanks!
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Offline MCRider

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Re: CB750K3: Chain and final drive sprockets lesson?
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2013, 07:39:42 AM »
Personally I thought the idea of prestretching was bogus. However, not wanting to jump to conclusions, I found this on the Diamond web site:"Following assembly, an initial load is applied to the chain, which is called a pre-load. This loading approximates the recommended maximum loading in service and is done to align the various chain components such as pins, bushings, and link plates. The benefit of pre-loading is that it helps greatly eliminate the initial elongation often found in "lesser" chains. Elimination of this initial elongation can increase the chains useable service life therefore pre-loading is very important. Diamond Chain Company pre-loads every standard and heavy series chain it manufacturers. "

I don't know any other chain manufactureres to make this claim. So it may still be bogus. But Diamond does it.
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"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline CBNJ74

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Re: CB750K3: Chain and final drive sprockets lesson?
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2013, 09:10:36 AM »
I don't know what the hell is going on here. Both old and new chains are 530x100. Old chain is much thinner and non o-ring type. I confirmed sprocket count and they're correct as well (48/18). The only thing I can think of is since the chain is much fatter 100 link might not have been enough.
1973 Honda CB750K
1983 Honda VF750 Interceptor
2005 Triumph Thruxton
2012 Ducati Monster 1100evo