Author Topic: James' 77 550f.  (Read 49072 times)

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Offline luceja

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Re: James' 77 550f.
« Reply #150 on: April 07, 2013, 07:25:14 PM »
Took 'er out on the beach:


'75 cb400f, '77 cb550f , CB160 road racer, '88 Hawk GT track bike, FZR400 race bike, and a bunch of old hondas in boxes.

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: James' 77 550f.
« Reply #151 on: April 07, 2013, 09:35:32 PM »
James,

Very nice build. Worth all the troubles and trials and heartbreaks along the way for the grin you get across your face when carving through the corners. The 550 is a fun nimble bike, perfect for street and commuting and the occassional beach trip.
Silver paint would like nice with your seat. Is it comfortable?

David
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline SPRBYKRYDR

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Re: James' 77 550f.
« Reply #152 on: April 07, 2013, 09:54:00 PM »
Sweet bike, an diggin the the fintail too. Gotta love the classic mercedes!

Offline spdygnzlz

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Re: James' 77 550f.
« Reply #153 on: April 07, 2013, 11:10:23 PM »
Sweet bike!  I'm going through the same process with rebuilding the whole engine and your incident with the shifter drum retainer kinda made me nervous about the all the other details in getting the engine back together.  Still, I've checked and rechecked every available diagram for the engine to make sure I'm not forgetting any thing.  I'll breath a sigh of relief if/when my bike gets past the 100 mile shakedown/break in period. 

Thanks for documenting your experience in this thread too!  I'm constantly amazed by how good a resource everyone in this forum is. 

Offline luceja

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Re: James' 77 550f.
« Reply #154 on: April 09, 2013, 10:11:56 PM »
James,

Very nice build. Worth all the troubles and trials and heartbreaks along the way for the grin you get across your face when carving through the corners. The 550 is a fun nimble bike, perfect for street and commuting and the occassional beach trip.
Silver paint would like nice with your seat. Is it comfortable?

David

The seat isn't stock comfortable, but it was bearable for that 3-4 hour ride. Certainly wouldn't want to tour on it. It's a day trip or 'cafe racing' bike for sure. Zips around town, plenty of fun in the twisties, and I can camp off of it. First a certain role well. It's no dirtbike, nor a tourer, nor a race bike. Just sort of sits in the middle, but does that well.
'75 cb400f, '77 cb550f , CB160 road racer, '88 Hawk GT track bike, FZR400 race bike, and a bunch of old hondas in boxes.

Offline luceja

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Re: James' 77 550f.
« Reply #155 on: April 09, 2013, 10:14:20 PM »
Sweet bike!  I'm going through the same process with rebuilding the whole engine and your incident with the shifter drum retainer kinda made me nervous about the all the other details in getting the engine back together.  Still, I've checked and rechecked every available diagram for the engine to make sure I'm not forgetting any thing.  I'll breath a sigh of relief if/when my bike gets past the 100 mile shakedown/break in period. 

Thanks for documenting your experience in this thread too!  I'm constantly amazed by how good a resource everyone in this forum is. 

Glad to leave my experience, I feel like it's a responsibility. So much of that bike was built off of forum knowledge from people leaving their experiences.

Do you have a thread chronicling your build? For me, before/after photos would have been the best path, especially for the shifter mechanism. That, and like everyone says, cleanliness. They're easy enough to rebuild if you goof :)
'75 cb400f, '77 cb550f , CB160 road racer, '88 Hawk GT track bike, FZR400 race bike, and a bunch of old hondas in boxes.

Offline minimo

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Re: James' 77 550f.
« Reply #156 on: April 21, 2013, 11:08:06 PM »
I bet you could strip and put the engine back together blindfolded  8)
That seat is gorgeous, btw. Elegant color and look.

Offline AgPete139

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Re: James' 77 550f.
« Reply #157 on: April 22, 2013, 01:37:49 AM »
So...wow. I cannot believe you have torn/assembled your engine so many times! I'm scared to just take mine out to clean it up! This thread seriously has inspired me to just dig in and stop worrying about everything that could go wrong. If something messes up, take it apart, find the root failure, and fix your mistake.

I bought a K5 some months ago that ran, but not well. I figured it was like yours, just needed a proper rejetting or switching the mains, etc. Whatever is wrong with why the motor lacks power (I'm now guessing bad compression), I have your thread here to guide me.

I'm stealing your milk crate method, BTW.

Your bike looks great. I can't wait to see what color you actually use for the covers & tank.

Pete
K5 -- Cafe Racer in progress

Offline minimo

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Re: James' 77 550f.
« Reply #158 on: April 22, 2013, 06:20:04 PM »
There's a shot of your pistons dropped into the cylinders on page 5. I may have missed it but did you end up replacing the pistons that you buffed too hard on the skirts and around the ring channels? We're those pistons in decent enough shape to reuse?

Offline luceja

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Re: James' 77 550f.
« Reply #159 on: April 23, 2013, 09:08:14 AM »
I bet you could strip and put the engine back together blindfolded  8)
That seat is gorgeous, btw. Elegant color and look.
At this point I think it would be possible, if you were real meticulous about where you put down parts. Thank you for the compliment.
'75 cb400f, '77 cb550f , CB160 road racer, '88 Hawk GT track bike, FZR400 race bike, and a bunch of old hondas in boxes.

Offline luceja

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Re: James' 77 550f.
« Reply #160 on: April 23, 2013, 09:10:04 AM »
There's a shot of your pistons dropped into the cylinders on page 5. I may have missed it but did you end up replacing the pistons that you buffed too hard on the skirts and around the ring channels? We're those pistons in decent enough shape to reuse?

It seems they are just fine - I was worried I scored the surface when I cleaned them up, but having had them out a couple times after running, everything is a-ok. Pretty lucky for a set of pistons/cylinders/rings I picked up off of ebay all together. I have an extra set of 600cc pistons and rings just in case :)
'75 cb400f, '77 cb550f , CB160 road racer, '88 Hawk GT track bike, FZR400 race bike, and a bunch of old hondas in boxes.

Offline luceja

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Re: James' 77 550f.
« Reply #161 on: April 23, 2013, 09:19:29 AM »
So...wow. I cannot believe you have torn/assembled your engine so many times! I'm scared to just take mine out to clean it up! This thread seriously has inspired me to just dig in and stop worrying about everything that could go wrong. If something messes up, take it apart, find the root failure, and fix your mistake.

I bought a K5 some months ago that ran, but not well. I figured it was like yours, just needed a proper rejetting or switching the mains, etc. Whatever is wrong with why the motor lacks power (I'm now guessing bad compression), I have your thread here to guide me.

I'm stealing your milk crate method, BTW.

Your bike looks great. I can't wait to see what color you actually use for the covers & tank.

Pete

the worst part was just not knowing the cause of the first failure until I found the paper towel that caused the oil block.. and I wouldn't have found that (almost re-assembled and ran it without finding that) had I not made other dumb mistakes.

If you have a compressor you can do a leakdown test using the crappy harbor freight tester and see if the rings or intake or exhaust valves are passing air, but I'm not sure about the results I've gotten from their compression tester. Maybe I don't know how to use it.

Either way, I'm a fan of just taking top ends apart to see what's going on, check ring gaps, etc. The big risks there are trying to remove old OEM style gaskets without damaging the surfaces, and getting the cam sprocket back on, which is a nightmare until you learn the trick. The rest of it (resetting the valvetrain) is just good maintenance, and is pretty straightforward from of the shop manual.

Then again, when I take things apart they inevitably self destruct, or at a minimum leak oil afterwards, so I might not be a good guide with this stuff.

the milk crate method works great, I'm not sure where I got that from. The side covers are being gloss blacked right now, then the tank, and then I have to go back and powdercoat all the stuff that has rusted since the bike has gotten wet a few times :/
'75 cb400f, '77 cb550f , CB160 road racer, '88 Hawk GT track bike, FZR400 race bike, and a bunch of old hondas in boxes.

Offline luceja

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Re: James' 77 550f.
« Reply #162 on: October 01, 2014, 10:30:51 AM »
A couple of small updates on the bike:
1) I love this thing. I did a couple hundred miles of continuous twisties around Mt. St. Helens as a final ride of the summer this weekend. I'm no fan of the tires I chose; I especially don't trust the rear. But I'm comfortable enough to take the bike over until there's no chicken strip left, at least on the right roads. I'm just careful about inputs when entering and exiting corners. Next year will be bt45's.

2) The jetting is still finicky. I started getting smoke on hard accelleration or revving, in what seemed to be mid to full throttle. It pulled just fine and was very, very responsive. I pulled the plugs: three were very sooty black, one suspiciously lean. Appearance was rich, not oil fouling, and I get very little blow by from the crankcase hose, so I don't think it's oil smoke. Appears to be black smoke/rich plugs. All idle mix screws were 2 turns out, all needles even (2nd from top, which I believe is stock for 550f 069a carbs), 100 mains, floats even at 22mm, uni oem style drop in filter, stock airbox, stock headers, mac muffler.

First I figured the floats must be uneven, like they must be saturated or have variance in bouyance, so I took an extra set of carb bowls, tapped them to add hose barbs, and measured the float height externally - all levels were about 2mm below the lip of the float bowl, which I understand is correct. Returned the mains to 98 (had 100's) - still black smoke, but now didn't pull as hard, and removing airbox made it barely run... which sounds lean??? Tried richening the needles/midrange, but that just made it dog like the choke was on. Basically just tried changing things around. I returned to where I was (stock needle position, 100 mains) and tried varying the muffler - the mac exhaust has a circuitous baffle and doesn't sound particularly good, so I took Paulages' advice and cut the existing baffle out, made a tube out of perforated steel sheet, joined the baffle caps to the perforated tube, and packed it with household insulation. It certainly sounds better, and it's not smoking rich. So... the culprit was the mac muffler? I'll be keeping an eye on the exhaust and the plugs to see where to go next.

3) I'm hoping to make time this winter to run external oil lines from the right case plug up to the head. It drives me nuts to have a light oil leak at the cylinder head, still.

4) I need to make a full separate post, but in the spring I built my own electronically controlled ignition for the 550, based on an arduino, a hall effect sensor at the crank, and a custom coil driver circuit. It allowed for custom advance curves, however you'd like, and constant dwell through the revs. It was an incredible amount of effort, and yes, it worked! (Though I'd want to refine it alot before offering it as a DIY project for anyone) I also made an automatic idle control using a stepper motor mounted to the carb rack, which adjusted idle based on engine temperature. Again, this would need refinement before putting it out there, but it also worked. There was also a computer driven tachometer that integrated with the ignition controller. I'll make a post detailing all of this sooner or later!
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 10:32:46 AM by luceja »
'75 cb400f, '77 cb550f , CB160 road racer, '88 Hawk GT track bike, FZR400 race bike, and a bunch of old hondas in boxes.

Offline luceja

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Re: James' 77 550f.
« Reply #163 on: October 01, 2014, 04:40:37 PM »
Thought I'd add a couple of photos/video of the arduino ignition, though again, I'll need to find time before I can get any good information up here.

Hall effect sensor/magnet rotor instead of points:



Stepper motor based idle control:



Link to it starting/running - http://vid82.photobucket.com/albums/j242/luceja/bikerunning.mp4

I don't think there's any benefit to what I made over points or a dyna, nor is the automatic idle screw adjustment really necessary... it was just a fun project.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 05:35:34 PM by luceja »
'75 cb400f, '77 cb550f , CB160 road racer, '88 Hawk GT track bike, FZR400 race bike, and a bunch of old hondas in boxes.

Offline minimo

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Re: James' 77 550f.
« Reply #164 on: October 02, 2014, 10:56:08 AM »

floats even at 22mm, uni oem style drop in filter, stock airbox, stock headers, mac muffler.
Are you sure this is an accurate measure? From the photo, looks like there's at least 2mm measured below tangent of the float. Is there tolerance allowed when the float arm is barely touching the float valve per the manual?

Offline goldarrow

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Re: James' 77 550f.
« Reply #165 on: October 02, 2014, 11:12:37 AM »
Carbs need to be flip the other way
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Offline minimo

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Re: James' 77 550f.
« Reply #166 on: October 02, 2014, 11:29:27 AM »
And yes, position the carbs so that the float valve is seated properly. The photo here may be misleading because the carb orientation is flipped but as long as the valves aren't popping out of their seats, you'll get a better reading for inspection.

More on the photo, if you were to tilt the calipers in/up/down ever so slightly, it would probably throw off your inspection.

Perhaps a better way to inspect for float level adjustments is to utilize the depth gauge on your calipers (flip it around), that is if you have that feature. If so, first, lock your calipers to 22mm and rest the bottom (where the depth gauge begins) so that it physically rests on the peak-round of the float. Keep the caliper upright and flush against the side wall of the float and rest the depth gauge on the float bowl mating surface. Keep the caliper steady as you bring the tang down to see how it makes contact with the tip of the float valve (per the manual, it should barely touch it). Make adjustments to the tang if necessary until it barely touches the valve tip.

Offline luceja

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Re: James' 77 550f.
« Reply #167 on: October 02, 2014, 12:28:24 PM »

floats even at 22mm, uni oem style drop in filter, stock airbox, stock headers, mac muffler.
Are you sure this is an accurate measure? From the photo, looks like there's at least 2mm measured below tangent of the float. Is there tolerance allowed when the float arm is barely touching the float valve per the manual?

Oh jeez, that picture was taken three years before that comment! I've learned plenty since then, but I think it was just the photo making things look amiss. I've known to be careful to position the carbs such that the float tang contacts the float valve needle on without compressing the spring. Thanks for looking out!
« Last Edit: October 02, 2014, 12:55:16 PM by luceja »
'75 cb400f, '77 cb550f , CB160 road racer, '88 Hawk GT track bike, FZR400 race bike, and a bunch of old hondas in boxes.

Offline luceja

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Re: James' 77 550f.
« Reply #168 on: October 02, 2014, 12:40:20 PM »
Carbs need to be flip the other way
That particular picture is years old and I think may be misleading about how the carb bank is oriented on the table, but for the sake of discussion, my understanding is that the goal is to position the carbs such that the tang of the float just rests against the float valve pins without compressing the pin's spring; to my imagination it wouldn't matter if the bank was inlet down or inlet up so long as the angle was such that this condition is met?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2014, 12:53:08 PM by luceja »
'75 cb400f, '77 cb550f , CB160 road racer, '88 Hawk GT track bike, FZR400 race bike, and a bunch of old hondas in boxes.

Offline luceja

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Re: James' 77 550f.
« Reply #169 on: October 02, 2014, 12:52:01 PM »
And yes, position the carbs so that the float valve is seated properly. The photo here may be misleading because the carb orientation is flipped but as long as the valves aren't popping out of their seats, you'll get a better reading for inspection.

More on the photo, if you were to tilt the calipers in/up/down ever so slightly, it would probably throw off your inspection.

Perhaps a better way to inspect for float level adjustments is to utilize the depth gauge on your calipers (flip it around), that is if you have that feature. If so, first, lock your calipers to 22mm and rest the bottom (where the depth gauge begins) so that it physically rests on the peak-round of the float. Keep the caliper upright and flush against the side wall of the float and rest the depth gauge on the float bowl mating surface. Keep the caliper steady as you bring the tang down to see how it makes contact with the tip of the float valve (per the manual, it should barely touch it). Make adjustments to the tang if necessary until it barely touches the valve tip.

That method is exactly what I've been doing these days; sound advice! Though, as I mentioned before, now I'm able to check the real-world float level externally :) ( didn't trust the evenness of the buoyancy)
'75 cb400f, '77 cb550f , CB160 road racer, '88 Hawk GT track bike, FZR400 race bike, and a bunch of old hondas in boxes.

Offline minimo

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Re: James' 77 550f.
« Reply #170 on: October 02, 2014, 01:20:20 PM »
Per manual and numerous other reports, the tang should just barely touch the tip and not compress the valve tip.

When you measure your valves externally, you would still have to bend your tangs accordingly... As I imagine, this will give a more accurate measurement but also a lot of trial/error and removing/reattaching the float bowl to get it all right. Is there a good trick to it?

Offline luceja

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Re: James' 77 550f.
« Reply #171 on: October 02, 2014, 01:42:28 PM »
Per manual and numerous other reports, the tang should just barely touch the tip and not compress the valve tip.

When you measure your valves externally, you would still have to bend your tangs accordingly... As I imagine, this will give a more accurate measurement but also a lot of trial/error and removing/reattaching the float bowl to get it all right. Is there a good trick to it?
Oh for sure, trying to do the jetting process by using external measurements would be awful. I just checked it externally in addition to the normal process to confirm that the normal method of setting the tang produced correct results; the worry is that one of the floats might be set correctly but have variance in buoyancy after all these years.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 07:20:48 PM by luceja »
'75 cb400f, '77 cb550f , CB160 road racer, '88 Hawk GT track bike, FZR400 race bike, and a bunch of old hondas in boxes.

Offline Jalapeno

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Re: James' 77 550f.
« Reply #172 on: April 28, 2015, 11:41:47 AM »
James, Thanks for posting about the rear hub issue you faced.  I've been trying to wrap my head around why the spokes wont fit on my 78 550 rear hub... to the point where I've almost convinced myself that either I'm crazy, or that I've installed the spokes incorrectly... looks like you may be on to something.  My gut feeling was that the hub was too thick, or the powder coat I added to the hub was obstructing things, so I'm very glad I've found your post and we are thinking along the same lines.  I wanted to ask you... how much did you "notch" the hub?  Also, are you facing any issues with the rear wheel now that you've put some miles on her?  Been thinking about notching the hubs just like you did.  Thanks in advance, and any other advice is much appreciated!

Offline luceja

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Re: James' 77 550f.
« Reply #173 on: April 28, 2015, 02:44:45 PM »
James, Thanks for posting about the rear hub issue you faced.  I've been trying to wrap my head around why the spokes wont fit on my 78 550 rear hub... to the point where I've almost convinced myself that either I'm crazy, or that I've installed the spokes incorrectly... looks like you may be on to something.  My gut feeling was that the hub was too thick, or the powder coat I added to the hub was obstructing things, so I'm very glad I've found your post and we are thinking along the same lines.  I wanted to ask you... how much did you "notch" the hub?  Also, are you facing any issues with the rear wheel now that you've put some miles on her?  Been thinking about notching the hubs just like you did.  Thanks in advance, and any other advice is much appreciated!

The depth of the notch was just eyeballed.. ground away a little, and then put the spoke in to see if the angle was any better. I'd guess about 1.5mm on each spoke, which would be quite a lot of error to be caused just by the powdercoating. I totally forgot I had to do that with that wheel!
'75 cb400f, '77 cb550f , CB160 road racer, '88 Hawk GT track bike, FZR400 race bike, and a bunch of old hondas in boxes.