Author Topic: How do you route YOUR fuel lines?  (Read 9978 times)

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Offline Don R

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Re: How do you route YOUR fuel lines?
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2010, 09:46:07 AM »
My brother and I have always run filters on 750's and 500 and ran the lines down then back up since 73, never had any problems caused by not enough fuel.
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Offline Gordon

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Re: How do you route YOUR fuel lines?
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2010, 09:50:19 AM »
My brother and I have always run filters on 750's and 500 and ran the lines down then back up since 73, never had any problems caused by not enough fuel.

That's how I run them on my 750, too.  I couldn't remember how I have them on the 550 so I just checked and I have them running level to the ground across the intake boots, with the filters in the middle of that level section, and then curved back and down toward the fuel inlets.  So there's nowhere for air to get trapped. 

Offline TwoTired

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Re: How do you route YOUR fuel lines?
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2010, 11:05:17 AM »
Good picture for use in an argument against in-line filters.

Have you run the tank down below reserve yet?
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Offline Gordon

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Re: How do you route YOUR fuel lines?
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2010, 11:54:20 AM »
Good picture for use in an argument against in-line filters.


It sure is!  In the same way that a picture of a wrecked motorcycle is a good argument against anybody riding a motorcycle. 

Offline 75cb550 (kyle)

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Re: How do you route YOUR fuel lines?
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2010, 12:01:52 PM »
Good picture for use in an argument against in-line filters.



It sure is!  In the same way that a picture of a wrecked motorcycle is a good argument against anybody riding a motorcycle.  

my mother would agree with you Gordon... she always worries.

Offline Gordon

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Re: How do you route YOUR fuel lines?
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2010, 12:05:03 PM »

my mother would agree with you Gordon... she always worries.

That's her job. :)

Offline brianzenk

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Re: How do you route YOUR fuel lines?
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2010, 04:55:21 PM »
The picture included with this post should clear everything up.
"The carbs are kept full with fuel by the floats and the needle valve. It works like your toilet – after you flush, the float falls down, letting more water into the toilet until it reaches a specific line when the valve turns the water off. The main difference is that your carbs aren’t supposed to let that liquid level drop as much as your toilet does. Otherwise, they wouldn’t be able to effectively suck up the gas."
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: How do you route YOUR fuel lines?
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2010, 06:42:22 PM »
Good picture for use in an argument against in-line filters.


It sure is!  In the same way that a picture of a wrecked motorcycle is a good argument against anybody riding a motorcycle. 
Well, certainly operating a motorcycle aimed at that result.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Gordon

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Re: How do you route YOUR fuel lines?
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2010, 09:38:37 PM »
Good picture for use in an argument against in-line filters.


It sure is!  In the same way that a picture of a wrecked motorcycle is a good argument against anybody riding a motorcycle. 
Well, certainly operating a motorcycle aimed at that result.


Sometimes you really crack me up. :)

but only sometimes...

Offline Scott S

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Re: How do you route YOUR fuel lines?
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2010, 02:03:33 PM »
 FWIW, I had to drain the tank because of an apparent leaking seam. There was nothing in the inline filters, but the sediment bowl and filter in the petcock had LOTS of fine, powdery rust. There was quite a bit in there and, as far as I know, it didn't make it to the inline filters.

 I DID experience some odd carb problems on the first shakedown run. I hope nothing made it THROUGH the inlines and into the carbs. Haven't even tried to sort it out yet because of the tank leak...
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Offline anthonyr

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Re: How do you route YOUR fuel lines?
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2010, 10:29:13 PM »
Not sure if this has been suggested yet. I used Visu-Filter ITW 90 Degree Fuel Filters on my 74 cb550 to avoid the kink. They fit and work well. http://www.bikebandit.com/product/A5535258

Offline scottly

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Re: How do you route YOUR fuel lines?
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2010, 10:41:45 PM »
Thanks for the tip. And welcome to the forum!
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wdhewson

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Re: How do you route YOUR fuel lines?
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2010, 04:51:40 AM »
I'd propose that good engineering practice dictates at least two filtrations in any fluid system.

Even the oil in our engines gets two filtrations, the screen at the pump then the fine paper element.  And then it is rapidly re-filtered through these filters as the engine runs.

As for gasoline, ditto. Our cars have a filter in the tank near the electric fuel pump, then an second filter for fine filtration in the engine bay.  As the fuel injectors are oversupplied with fuel, the extra fuel goes back to the tank for yet another trip through the filters.  So a modern car has at least two fuel filters doing repeated duty.

Can anyone guess how many times gasoline is filtered during refining, during distribution, delivery to the gas station, and at the pump into our car.  It is upwards of 20 times.

You might want to think about fuel filtration in aviation practice, if you think one filtration is sufficient.

But if engineering practice is unconvincing, then turn to Mother Nature.  How many filtration steps do your kidneys offer to your blood.  It ain't just one, and it is certainly repeated.  What about the air we breathe?  First filtered by our nostril size, then by nose hairs, then by lung alveoli, etc.

So yes, stick in a tidy in-line filter, and feel good and proper about being sensible and thorough.  Don.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: How do you route YOUR fuel lines?
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2010, 11:47:00 AM »
I'd propose that good engineering practice dictates at least two filtrations in any fluid system.
I propose this theory is not supported by science.   (Sorry Don   ;)  )

Even the oil in our engines gets two filtrations, the screen at the pump then the fine paper element.  And then it is rapidly re-filtered through these filters as the engine runs.

These are two different levels of "filtration" particle size.  With this level of reasoning the oil filler neck can also be construed as a filter as it blocks large rocks from entering the system.  The screen on the oil pump keeps large bits from damaging the pump.  The oil filter keep particle sizes far smaller from reaching the engine bearings.  Further, that final filter particle size restriction occurs only once in the engine system.

As for gasoline, ditto. Our cars have a filter in the tank near the electric fuel pump, then a second filter for fine filtration in the engine bay.  As the fuel injectors are oversupplied with fuel, the extra fuel goes back to the tank for yet another trip through the filters.  So a modern car has at least two fuel filters doing repeated duty.

Again, there is a filter for the mechanical pump to keep from damaging it.  The filter in the tank is not the particle size blocker for the injector nozzles.
Beside that, the flow back to the tank is an artifact of the pump system design for other reasons, pump durability and pressure regulation, not primarily for repeated filtration.  Besides, where would a closed system add new larger particles that need to be routinely filtered?

Can anyone guess how many times gasoline is filtered during refining, during distribution, delivery to the gas station, and at the pump into our car.  It is upwards of 20 times.
It is filtered that many times because it is an open system where particles can be introduced at each transfer point, not because the fuel needs inherent re-filtering.  Gasoline does not make larger particle sizes of it own accord.  If your carbs have a direct connection between where made and where used, you wouldn't need but one insurance filter for a particle size just smaller than will fit through the smallest fuel orifice in the carb.

You might want to think about fuel filtration in aviation practice, if you think one filtration is sufficient.
I do. I am a pilot.  My airplane has a single micro mesh screen at the fuel pump that is checked yearly.
If you are talking again about fuel distribution filtering, that again is due to the "non-closed system" nature of distribution, not by any inherent property of fuel to create large particle sizes.

But if engineering practice is unconvincing, ...
I must reject your "engineering practice" theory as unsupported by engineering fact.  You have drawn conclusions with incorrect observations, and unsupported reasons for "filters" as you found them.

...then turn to Mother Nature.  How many filtration steps do your kidneys offer to your blood.  It ain't just one, and it is certainly repeated.  What about the air we breathe?  First filtered by our nostril size, then by nose hairs, then by lung alveoli, etc.

So, if we turn to nature, then we should be able to ingest large amount of arsenic because other animals can without harm, right?
While apples and oranges do share a similar roundish shape, most would concur they are really quite different.

Talk to any doctor about a corollary between mechanical machines and biological organisms, and you will find a wide disparity in how they function and react.  Their is also a large disparity as to how predictable their function is.  A machine's components are put there for specific need (if based on science/physics).  Whereas, biological devices are borne of chaos.  The biological device "designs" that didn't work right were eliminated via evolution.

Further, the biological devices that you refer to are NOT absolute filters, they are statistical filters.  To catch that last particle they need several trips through the system.  It only takes one missed particle to block a slow jet, and it is not self repairing as a biological device often is.

So yes, stick in a tidy in-line filter, and feel good and proper about being sensible and thorough.  Don.
Ah, I think we get the true message, here.  It is all about feeling good and having faith that what you change is for the better.   (Sound like a religious principle?)  And what is "tidy" about making a plumber's nightmare and a gravity defying routing out of a once direct and free flowing fuel supply system?

Adding extra filtration to an absolute particle size blocker (beyond what will be blocked by the using system during function), is superfluous  (aside from making the owner "feel good").
I suggest you might get the same benefit from the wearing the filter on a chain around your neck.  That way, you can feel good about having a spare with you, "just in case".   ;D

Might I suggest using deductive reasoning rather than Abductive Reasoning?
Abduction
    allows inferring a as an explanation of b. Because of this, abduction allows the precondition a to be inferred from the consequence b. Deduction and abduction thus differ in the direction in which a rule like "a entails b" is used for inference. As such abduction is formally equivalent to the logical fallacy affirming the consequent or Post hoc ergo propter hoc, because there are multiple possible explanations for b.

Unlike deduction and in some sense induction, abduction can produce results that are incorrect within its formal system. Hence the conclusions of abduction can only be made valid by separately checking them with a different method, either by deduction or exhaustive induction. However, it can still be useful as a heuristic, especially when something is known about the likelihood of different causes for b.


deductive  reasoning
   1. inference in which the conclusion cannot be false given that the premises are true.


Cheers,
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 03:26:37 PM by TwoTired »
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: How do you route YOUR fuel lines?
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2010, 03:17:28 PM »
I'd propose that good engineering practice dictates at least two filtrations in any fluid system.

Even the oil in our engines gets two filtrations, the screen at the pump then the fine paper element.  And then it is rapidly re-filtered through these filters as the engine runs.

As for gasoline, ditto. Our cars have a filter in the tank near the electric fuel pump, then an second filter for fine filtration in the engine bay.  As the fuel injectors are oversupplied with fuel, the extra fuel goes back to the tank for yet another trip through the filters.  So a modern car has at least two fuel filters doing repeated duty.

Can anyone guess how many times gasoline is filtered during refining, during distribution, delivery to the gas station, and at the pump into our car.  It is upwards of 20 times.

You might want to think about fuel filtration in aviation practice, if you think one filtration is sufficient.

But if engineering practice is unconvincing, then turn to Mother Nature.  How many filtration steps do your kidneys offer to your blood.  It ain't just one, and it is certainly repeated.  What about the air we breathe?  First filtered by our nostril size, then by nose hairs, then by lung alveoli, etc.

So yes, stick in a tidy in-line filter, and feel good and proper about being sensible and thorough.  Don.

Hence, my argument for three filters instead of two, and pants with suspenders, minimum.

Can't be too careful, can we?  ;)

Awww #$%*, let's make it a nice even number, hows about four? Four filters!!!

THAT's IT!!!!! FOUR!

Look, if you are that worried about what is in your gas maybe you should be more concerned with where you buy your gas from. Clean or properly lined tank with the petcock screen is more than enough protection against the gas baddies.
 
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Offline Gordon

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Re: How do you route YOUR fuel lines?
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2010, 04:47:42 PM »

Look, if you are that worried about what is in your gas maybe you should be more concerned with where you buy your gas from. Clean or properly lined tank with the petcock screen is more than enough protection against the gas baddies.
 

I fully agree. 

I also fully agree that "if one is not able or willing to fix or repair the intank or petcock type of fuel filter, in-lines are the next best thing, if sized correctly, and implemented compatibly with gravity feed systems."

Offline Achmed

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Re: How do you route YOUR fuel lines?
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2010, 05:03:25 PM »
I like the cut of your jib, wdhewson. Twotired also makes good, though labored, points. "Belt and suspenders" is actually a tried and true refrain among engineers. Also, "when in doubt, make it stout, out of things you know about." Often a recipe for overengineering, as in-line filters sometimes are.

I submit the proposition that all points of the fuel distribution system on older machines with maintenance histories not particularly well-documented can be introduction points for additional particles, which seems to be in evidence.

Cheers,
Achmed

wdhewson

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Re: How do you route YOUR fuel lines?
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2010, 05:40:56 PM »
There is one thing that should be corrected from an earlier message.  It was put forth that fuels do not make their own particulates that need to be filtered out, and that the "dirt" in fuel is from eternal sources.

Gasoline derived varnish both plates out on parts and forms particulates as these varnishes are not soluble in the gasoline.  And the varnish is derived directly from the gasoline itself (oxidatively reactive olefinics polymerizing) and not an external "dust" or the like.

Additionally all fuels still have some sulfur compounds that react with steel (slowly but surely) to form iron sulfides which are not soluble in the gasoline.  This is a second example of internally generated particulates that would be nice to have filtered and not delivered to our small diameter jets.  Thanks, Don

Offline TwoTired

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Re: How do you route YOUR fuel lines?
« Reply #43 on: June 05, 2010, 11:30:14 PM »
There is one thing that should be corrected from an earlier message.  It was put forth that fuels do not make their own particulates that need to be filtered out, and that the "dirt" in fuel is from eternal sources.

Gasoline derived varnish both plates out on parts and forms particulates as these varnishes are not soluble in the gasoline.  And the varnish is derived directly from the gasoline itself (oxidatively reactive olefinics polymerizing) and not an external "dust" or the like.

Additionally all fuels still have some sulfur compounds that react with steel (slowly but surely) to form iron sulfides which are not soluble in the gasoline.  This is a second example of internally generated particulates that would be nice to have filtered and not delivered to our small diameter jets.  Thanks, Don

I agree gasoline can make varnish.  But, filters do not prevent gasoline from entering the carb and creating varnish there.  The argument here seems to be more in favor of something like Seafoam to dissolve the varnish so it may flow through the carb/fuel system and ultimately out the exhaust.

Even iron sulfides or actual iron oxide rust particles, if small enough, can pass right through the carb jets without the need to be trapped.  The stock Honda filter blocks particles that won't fit through the fuel jets, as does an inline.  But, an inline holds accumulated particles and then becomes restrictive at some point during accumulation.

The Honda owners manual for the Cb500 has a maintenance item of cleaning the fuel valve strainer every 300 miles.  Easy enough to do.  But, can you clean in-lines?  Or do you replace them every 300 miles?

The later in-tank filters are to be cleaned every 3000 miles per Honda owner's manual.  The sloshing fuel tends to keep debris away from the filter so it won't cause a fuel restriction, in my experience.

So, just how often should inline filters be routinely replaced?  To those of you using in-line fuel filters, have you EVER routinely replaced them?  If so, what is your schedule?

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline scottly

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Re: How do you route YOUR fuel lines?
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2010, 12:15:29 AM »

The Honda owners manual for the Cb500 has a maintenance item of cleaning the fuel valve strainer every 300 miles.  Easy enough to do.  But, can you clean in-lines?  Or do you replace them every 300 miles?

Do you clean your strainer EVERY 300 miles??

The later in-tank filters are to be cleaned every 3000 miles per Honda owner's manual.  The sloshing fuel tends to keep debris away from the filter so it won't cause a fuel restriction, in my experience.

So, even Honda changed their filter design (gasp!!??)

So, just how often should inline filters be routinely replaced?  To those of you using in-line fuel filters, have you EVER routinely replaced them?  If so, what is your schedule?

 
Based on what you have said, I would guess an inline filter replacement schedule of 3000 miles would be appropriate. 


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