Topic: Who'd buy 750 341 4x4 pipes at $400/set?

[Popwood]

I'd tend to agree that a supplier to Honda would very likely not risk jeopardizing a lucrative relationship. This probably happens every day in China, but that's another story.

I still say approaching Western Hills Honda is worth a shot. The worst that can happen is they say "no way." But when I was talking with Terry a couple months back and mentioned pipes and David Silver Spares, he knows the company and does parts deals with them. I say this to establish they are a bigger player and do international vintage parts business. Heck, they had two renovated sandcasts sitting on the floor ready to be shipped to Australia. They were one of the orginal Honda dealers in the US.

So, if David Silver will order, let's say, 50 sets of pipes on spec at a time; put them in inventory and sell as buyers order, at a current price of $635US, I say WHH may consider a "bulk" order to customers with deposits at some discount.  Like I say, it's worth a conversation. It may be a long shot, sure, but geez, worth a talk.

So, again, if you'd be in, even if skeptical of it coming about, speak up. The greater the number of takers the more influence we might have.

And sorry, I'm not totally up on the difference in pipes. Mine carries 341s.  What's the difference between these and the others mentioned for 750s of the specs?

[Caymen]

Why on earth would a VENDOR that supplies Honda, risk their  relationship with Honda..??

Typically, in the auto industry, OEM manufacturers are under contract by the auto manufacturer for a number of years, then they get the right to sell to anyone they want to.

This may be the same thing. I find it hard to believe an exhaust maker would go into a permenant contract with Honda to make exhaust systems and NEVER be able to make them for anyone, even if it is for the health of the company.


Tom

[754]

So who are they going to make them for that will buy them in even a tenth of the quantity that Honda will ??

 I think in Japan things may be done different than here, and even a handshake deal may be honoured for a lifetime.

 If the dies are owned by Honda, that will make a big difference too.. why would they invest in tooling at high cost, to then have someone that they are partnered with to undercut them..?

  Perhaps some of you do not understand the tooling costs, and amount of dies involved in making these..

  As far as I know, Sito  reproduces some of the Honda exhausts, in Italy. I dont think they are cheaper than Honda, either. Those pipes are a lot of work..

[Popwood]

So who are they going to make them for that will buy them in even a tenth of the quantity that Honda will ??

 I think in Japan things may be done different than here, and even a handshake deal may be honoured for a lifetime.

 If the dies are owned by Honda, that will make a big difference too.. why would they invest in tooling at high cost, to then have someone that they are partnered with to undercut them..?

  Perhaps some of you do not understand the tooling costs, and amount of dies involved in making these..

  As far as I know, Sito  reproduces some of the Honda exhausts, in Italy. I dont think they are cheaper than Honda, either. Those pipes are a lot of work..


Sito, huh? I recall reading something about an Italian company making these pipes. Maybe that's where David Silver gets them? And I think I also ready that they are no cheaper than Honda. But that begs the question: how does David Silver sell them for $635US? He's not running a charity!

And that other pipe part number I was wondering about and has been brought up here are HM300s. School me on the difference.

Thanks.

[Retro Rocket]

I think you guys are kidding yourselves.     


 400 bux, you have to be kidding! just how much do you think they make on these..
 post # 17 touched on this, sorta hit the nail on the head...

 Why on earth would a VENDOR that supplies Honda, risk their  relationship with Honda..??  for what 20 sets of pipes at 600.00.. Risk hundreds of thousands of dollars or maybe even millions of dollars of work every year.. for.. what... 12 or 20 K of parts they are not making much on... you have to be kidding..

 Its a one sided deal and only the people proposing it can benefit by it..

 Face it, they are not going to sink their business to help out a few of us..
 besides... they may not even own the dies, they may belong to Honda..

Sometimes Frank i think you post just to be negative. We are not talking about doing business in the US and i can guarantee you that business in Japan is completely different. We are also talking low volume, do you really think a small number of motorcycle enthusiasts is going to threaten Honda's viability in the motorcycle market? I have already managed to do the exact same thing with guitars that are worth a lot more than the exhaust system we speak of here and if i had a contact in the bike industry in Japan i would at least try to find a way to get them for myself, sometimes you need to be a little industrious, it works for me. remember this was just a suggestion, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Mick

[Bob750]

What I'm worried about is whether we'll have a war between those who want HM300s and those who want HM341s.  Perhaps a war can be averted by splitting the order into two. (And some of you out there have multiple bikes of different vintage and would maybe want a set of both!)

For those who don't know the significance of the way the series are different, it's simply this:
The 300's were stock on early CB750s (years??) and the 341s came on later models, with more baffling to appease tightening emissions standards.  So, depending on the year of your bike and the jets used, the difference usually would mean re-jetting if you went from one series to the other. The older 300s, with less baffling, are louder.

Some later-year bike owners would prefer to re-jet and get the 300s for personal reasons. Personally I would love to leave my K4 jets where they are and have a nice new set of stock 341 pipes. But hey, that's just me.

Anyone else think both groups could/should be appeased?

[Popwood]

What I'm worried about is whether we'll have a war between those who want HM300s and those who want HM341s.  Perhaps a war can be averted by splitting the order into two. (And some of you out there have multiple bikes of different vintage and would maybe want a set of both!)

For those who don't know the significance of the way the series are different, it's simply this:
The 300's were stock on early CB750s (years??) and the 341s came on later models, with more baffling to appease tightening emissions standards.  So, depending on the year of your bike and the jets used, the difference usually would mean re-jetting if you went from one series to the other. The older 300s, with less baffling, are louder.

OK, for the sake of discussion here, and I'm interested in keeping my ride stock and started this thread, let's keep it to HM341s. If that divides the baby and further makes this long shot even longer, so be it. I'm beginning to think I need to go to Western Hills Honda and pose the question. I'd prefer to approach them with a confident XX orders to present, but those who'd prefer to argue the points of why it won't work seem to prefer to stay on sidelines and be negative rather than say "what the hell, I'm in if you can pull it off." No egg on my face if it doesn't work, but at least I tried.

Some later-year bike owners would prefer to re-jet and get the 300s for personal reasons. Personally I would love to leave my K4 jets where they are and have a nice new set of stock 341 pipes. But hey, that's just me.

Anyone else think both groups could/should be appeased?

[Bob750]

For a moment I thought you quoted me and didn't reply. Now I see the reply inside the quote box...

I'm in the "I'm in if you can pull it off" camp, by the way.  Did you see HondaMan's thread about the notion of manufacturing repros? http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=71951.0

[754]

Mick.. I dont see how guitars are a fair comparison  to motorcycles..
 I will ask you a few questions;

 Are any of the manufacturers you deal with , even close to the size of Honda Motor Co ?? and do they have thousands of dealers in over 80 countries?

 Have you ever been a Vendor for an OEM vehicle manufacturer?

 Do you consider your business dealings fair & honourable..?

.....................................................................................

 I really go to say, I think a lot of folks on here have very little idea of the amount of operations, and the size of the equipment needed to make these pipes..

[Retro Rocket]

Mick.. I dont see how guitars are a fair comparison  to motorcycles..
 I will ask you a few questions;

 Are any of the manufacturers you deal with , even close to the size of Honda Motor Co ?? and do they have thousands of dealers in over 80 countries?

 Have you ever been a Vendor for an OEM vehicle manufacturer?

 Do you consider your business dealings fair & honourable..?

.....................................................................................

 I really go to say, I think a lot of folks on here have very little idea of the amount of operations, and the size of the equipment needed to make these pipes..

Look up ESP guitars, i would confidently say that they would have more guitars in shops around the world than Honda has cars, also look up Tokai and Bacchus while you are there.  I am not here to deceive mate and i work under their rules and keep my dealings and conditions to myself and have been asked to, not because its wrong but because the Japanese don't like open discussion of personal matters. I have many Japanese friends, 1 very traditional and multiple business owner, another is a teacher and musician and i have another who studies in the US at a Uni in California and several more from all walks of life. I treat these people as friends and they treat me the same, they are relationships built over time on trust{and it isn't easy gaining their trust} and i have spent a lot of money through these guys for quite a few years, that is why i suggested doing it this way because,  if a member had good contacts in Japan in the bike industry, i am sure a deal could be done. Anyway, like i said, it was just a suggestion...

Mick

[spitcrazy]

To the naysayers, If you don't ask you don't get

Go ahead and try. I think you'd have to have a deal set up with the supplier first, incremental price with volume, and then ask the members to buy. If no go, nothing lost but your time.... if you are willing to give it.

If it was a deal, I may be in. HondaMan's idea seem attractive tho'... no seams

[Popwood]

I was finally out to see Terry at Western Hills Honda today. Spoke with him about exhaust "bulk buy" by forum members. Here's what I learned:

First, Honda doesn't show No.1 pipe as even available. He said he could offer a slight discount (we didn't get specific but it seemed like maybe 10%). Terry said that for the dealers, the more Honda raised the price of parts the less money they made. Said this started when American Honda took over. Now, that has been reversed and Honda Japan is responsible for motorcycle parts.

Not much hope here. Guess it was a "pipe" dream. There's still David Silver. Last time I checked a set was $735 plus about $150 shipping if I remember correctly. Still a lot of doh-re-me.

[UPHOTO]

I think you guys are kidding yourselves.     


 400 bux, you have to be kidding! just how much do you think they make on these..
 post # 17 touched on this, sorta hit the nail on the head...

 Why on earth would a VENDOR that supplies Honda, risk their  relationship with Honda..??  for what 20 sets of pipes at 600.00.. Risk hundreds of thousands of dollars or maybe even millions of dollars of work every year.. for.. what... 12 or 20 K of parts they are not making much on... you have to be kidding..

 Its a one sided deal and only the people proposing it can benefit by it..

 Face it, they are not going to sink their business to help out a few of us..
 besides... they may not even own the dies, they may belong to Honda..

Sometimes Frank i think you post just to be negative. We are not talking about doing business in the US and i can guarantee you that business in Japan is completely different. We are also talking low volume, do you really think a small number of motorcycle enthusiasts is going to threaten Honda's viability in the motorcycle market? I have already managed to do the exact same thing with guitars that are worth a lot more than the exhaust system we speak of here and if i had a contact in the bike industry in Japan i would at least try to find a way to get them for myself, sometimes you need to be a little industrious, it works for me. remember this was just a suggestion, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Mick

Sorry to be so frank Mick but sometimes it seems like you post just to see yourself on the internet.....

You are talking two different markets in your examples in this thread.  Guitars and HONDA......just a TAD bit different.

An OEM will at times sell to other distributors in BULK and major BULK.  I worked for a company that imported parts for foreign cars (Honda was one of them) and it was very tough to set up relationships with OEM companys.  In fact most of them have contracts with the company to only make the parts for them and nobody else.  Honda was like this with most of their parts.  For some of them they did it without Honda knowing but that was because we had a representative go to Japan and setup the relationship and go over the orders, and these were MAJOR orders in the hundreds to thousands of pieces on a regular basis not 10-20 every few years.

You are crazy to think that you can get a "group buy" with a manufacturer of parts in Japan with a relationship with Honda.

You keep using examples that just don't fit.

[Retro Rocket]

Good for you....you have an opinion and a smart arsed way of getting it across. My point that you obviously missed is that the Japanese are very different to deal with compared to westerners, if you had long term dealings with them you would know this. Also this is not about undercutting anyone at all and your example is also off because you refer to hundreds of thousands of items where we are referring to a few.

You are crazy to think that you can get a "group buy" with a manufacturer of parts in Japan with a relationship with Honda.

You see, thats is your opinion and i think you are wrong and i compared one of the biggest guitar companies in the world because it is similar in that they have contracts with the biggest music stores in Japan and the rest of the world and there are plenty more similarities.  My whole point which you have seemed to miss is that if anyone has or could establish a contact with someone who works for the company that makes the exhaust, not Honda, then you may just have a chance of pulling this off.
Now go back and read mate, i said that "this may be possible" and this is based on my own experience dealing with the Japanese and conducting business with these guys. I am also talking about "back door" deals and i have found that once confidence or trust is established almost anything is possible.
You see, i am very persistent and had to work very hard to establish my Japanese contacts,i won't go into detail on here but i can tell you that i have done what a lot of guitar shops and dealers have failed to do and it was only because of my persistence. I never take no as a final answer and i do my home work so i was sharing my experience with the guys here as i know it can be done if you know what you are doing. In case you still haven't worked it out i am talking about "back door deals", my experience tells me that anything is possible. So you see, your example was off the mark as well.....

Mick

[UPHOTO]

Good for you....you have an opinion and a smart arsed way of getting it across. My point that you obviously missed is that the Japanese are very different to deal with compared to westerners, if you had long term dealings with them you would know this. Also this is not about undercutting anyone at all and your example is also off because you refer to hundreds of thousands of items where we are referring to a few.

You are crazy to think that you can get a "group buy" with a manufacturer of parts in Japan with a relationship with Honda.

You see, thats is your opinion and i think you are wrong and i compared one of the biggest guitar companies in the world because it is similar in that they have contracts with the biggest music stores in Japan and the rest of the world and there are plenty more similarities.  My whole point which you have seemed to miss is that if anyone has or could establish a contact with someone who works for the company that makes the exhaust, not Honda, then you may just have a chance of pulling this off.
Now go back and read mate, i said that "this may be possible" and this is based on my own experience dealing with the Japanese and conducting business with these guys. I am also talking about "back door" deals and i have found that once confidence or trust is established almost anything is possible.
You see, i am very persistent and had to work very hard to establish my Japanese contacts,i won't go into detail on here but i can tell you that i have done what a lot of guitar shops and dealers have failed to do and it was only because of my persistence. I never take no as a final answer and i do my home work so i was sharing my experience with the guys here as i know it can be done if you know what you are doing. In case you still haven't worked it out i am talking about "back door deals", my experience tells me that anything is possible. So you see, your example was off the mark as well.....

Mick

Pot

Kettle

Black

Let us know how it turns out.

[Retro Rocket]

After you learn how to read and respond maybe you should realise that what you are talking about ISN'T what i am talking about. As far as your last answer, it makes about as much sense as your last rant..Whats your point? Just because you can't do or see someone doing something your incapable of doing doesn't mean it can't be done. Anyway mate if all you have to offer is smart arsed bull#$%* then go elsewhere are speak #$%*...

Mick

[zzpete]

The cost of original replacement pipes for all our bikes is huge financial outlay. So I wonder, if sohc members in sufficient numbers placed an order could we get a reasonable price? From what I understand, David Silver places a quantity order with Honda (or the original supplier) and gets a good enough price to be as competitive as any supplier. But the company must get their mark-up (my guess is 30 to 40%), and we pay $150 US shipping costs.

So, I'm thinking here, if an order for those pipes could be placed with up-front buyers, cash in hand, could we get a price that would be a lot easier to live with? Honda may not want to deal with a renegade group like us, but maybe we could work a deal with a dealer who'd take a short mark-up on a guaranteed sale! I'm in Cincinnati, home of Western Hills Honda, and they deal in a lot of vintage parts. Maybe they'd work with us? Great PR for them and some "sure thing" revenue. I could approach Terry, who runs the vintage parts operation there.   

Maybe this is a pipe dream, but if response is strong, I'd be happy to help coordinate. Off the top, I think 750 341s would get the biggest response. So let's hear from those who'd sign up.

Some of us appreciate your efforts. Thank you

[Retro Rocket]

Let us know how it turns out.

 
It has already worked for me, thats why i suggested it to the forum....
Before you repost and really look like an arse remember that what i posted is my personal experience with dealing in Japan and what i achieved was getting A1 product a lot cheaper than anyone else could and i still have this arrangement but am not using at present due to a crap exchange rate. I only buy these guitars for myself and my mates, i don't sell them commercially, that was part of the deal. In Australia we call these type of deals "cashies", i am not talking about dealing directly with Honda or the maker of the pipes, i am talking about employee's of the company, which is exactly how i do it with the guitars......
Do you understand yet?  
Anyway, it was just a SUGGESTION if anyone had any contacts or friends in Japan and seeing as though no one does i would say that you are just dredging this up to make some noise for nothing......get over it..

Mick

Sorry for the hijack guys...Some people just don't appreciate others input or help. Can't keep everyone happy....

Mick