Author Topic: rebuilt top end - white smoke on first startup  (Read 5491 times)

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Offline hndlbrs

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rebuilt top end - white smoke on first startup
« on: June 11, 2010, 03:21:26 AM »
Hi all,

I have a 1973 cb500 four.

the top end has been rebuilt with a NOS 555cc overbore kit purchased off ebay. The kit came with new 3mm overbore pistons and rings, and a new head gasket. I had a reputable machine shop bore out the stock 500 barrels, as well as go thru the head and replace the valve seals and guides (I asked them to do whatever it needed, they even replaced all the tappet adjuster screws)

A friend and I did the assembly at our shop. We followed the clymer manual step by step, and torqued everything to spec.

All gaskets and o-rings were replaced.

The bike has a brand new MAC performance 4-1 exhaust, and the carbs are fitted with UNI foam filter pods (model PK-23).
As we were aware this would put the engine in a lean condition, I had a custom jetting kit designed by 6 Sigma Engineering. They design the jetting specs based on the bike's mods, and operating altitude. It has 120 main jets, and the needles have been moved up to the next position (right now they are at the 2nd to last position, one more and they will be as high as they can go)

New oil (20w50) and filter, new plugs, new coils, wires and plug ends.

We got the bike running with the header pipe on at first (no muffler).

It seems to idle really nice, with only a bit of popping (likely points are getting a bit worn, but they were filed and gapped - I have a set of dynas on order, but wanted to see if the bike would run as is for now)

The throttle seems to have lots of snap and is very responsive, (didn't ride it tho, clutch cable and brakes were not hooked up)


Here is the main problem

It immediately began to emit a lot of white smoke from the output of the header (not vapor, as it hangs in the air and does not dissipate easily). Revving it only made it smoke more

We also noticed a bit of an exhaust leak from the number 3 exhaust where it joins the head. The crush gaskets were new, but we may have overtorqued that one.

We ran it for about 2-3 minutes, then let it cool down. On the second try it started first kick, and we ran it some more to see if the smoke would burn off (we figured it might just be residual oil from oiling the cylinders during assembly?)

this time we let it run for about 5 minutes, but the smoke still did not go away. On the third try we put the muffler pipe on. It was then I noticed a tiny bit of oil? (or dampness) on the bottom of the collector where the muffler joins the header. No real change, it still idled nice and sounded good (no tappet rattle, they had been adjusted prior to startup). We let it run, revving it occasionally, but the smoke kept spewing out the exhaust. We noticed what looked like oil had collected in a puddle (about 5 inches across) under the collector part of the header, but in retrospect it may have been water mixed with carbon? (it sure was black...) I'm pretty sure it was oil though, it felt oily on my fingers

We pulled the plugs and they seemed black and wet.

It seems to run soooooo good, if it werent for the smoke. I would think if it were bad rings, it would not run at all? And as I said, the rings are new, as is the head.

What could be wrong? Could they have forgot to do something in the head?

I've tried to detail as much as possible everything I can recall for some of you more experienced folks to narrow it down, but may have forgot something. Where should we start at this point?

Any help?

Jacob



Offline Ayrity

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Re: rebuilt top end - white smoke on first startup
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2010, 04:01:19 AM »
I'm no expert by any means, but I am awake at the moment haha. I remember when I installed my pods at first, (got the bike with no air filter unit at all, and pods were easy for me to grab) before installation, it ran nicely and no vapor/smoke, after pod install, had the same kind of white smoke you're describing it seems, turns out I over oiled the pods, and the red filter oil was burning white. I would try running it for just a min without the pods and see what happens... other than that, I'm out.
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Offline MRieck

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Re: rebuilt top end - white smoke on first startup
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2010, 04:57:13 AM »
What are you running for piston to wall clearance?
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline Sweep

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Re: rebuilt top end - white smoke on first startup
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2010, 06:44:00 AM »
I had this happen on my newly rebuilt motor and it went away after a time.  I was never sure but I think it was either built up condensation or just the effect of the rings not being seated yet.
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Offline hndlbrs

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Re: rebuilt top end - white smoke on first startup
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2010, 09:04:11 AM »
Ayrity:
the pods were not oiled, I put them on dry just to see how it ran, so that is not it.


Sweep:
How long after this happened did it go away? So far I've only actually run the bike for a total of about
10, maaaayyybe 15 minutes.

MRieck:
we never checked the clearance, because everything was brand new. I gave the new pistons and rings to the machine shop when they did the boring. I haven't pulled the head off yet, since I was waiting on doing this until after I'd picked a few brains.

A few other things I can think of:
when we first started it up, the idle was waaaaayyyy high. This was because we had bench synced and didn't lower the main idle linkage thumbscrew. So when it first kicked over it revved pretty high for about 5-7 seconds until we managed to shut it off and readjust it. (panic moment!!!!)

could I have damaged my rings in that amount of time? the system was well oiled by the time it fired, since we had been turning it over lots trying to get it started (turns out we didn't have quite enough gas in the tank  for it to come out of the petcock)

any help is appreciated at this point.

Offline ekpent

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Re: rebuilt top end - white smoke on first startup
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2010, 11:12:02 AM »
Years ago I put my oil scraper rings in upside down or wrong on my first 836 build on a 750 and smoked so bad I killed all the bugs everywhere I went.Not sure if your have the same set-up  ???

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Re: rebuilt top end - white smoke on first startup
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2010, 11:18:25 AM »
the amount of smoke you are talking about is not due to the rings not being seated.  Either your oil rings were installed upside down, or your valve guides are shot or the stem seals are bad.  Has to be one fo the 3, as the oil is getting into the combustion chamber.....it may be only one cylinder that is the culprit.....if all plugs are black....then you must have installed all the oil rings the same, or did something with the seals.  

Pull your dipstick and make sure you don't run it dry!

~Joe

Offline hndlbrs

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Re: rebuilt top end - white smoke on first startup
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2010, 01:14:14 PM »
As I mentioned, the head was professionally rebuilt and also vacuum checked. The likelihood of them missing something is less than me missing something. I honestly can't say 100% sure the oil rings are all right side up.

Looks like I'm pulling barrels.

I have a new spare head gasket, but not a bottom gasket, can I reuse the old one for now? Seal it with a gasket glue or something? Just to check? Or is this a no-no?

On the plugs, 1, 2 and 4 look fouled, with 4 being the worst, 2 being the driest, 1 being in the middle and 3 looking quite clean.

Will try to take pics and post soon

traveler

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Re: rebuilt top end - white smoke on first startup
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2010, 01:23:50 PM »
either the rubber valvestem seals are bad (even though new, they can still be bad), the head shop didn't check the guides out, or the oil rings were installed incorrectly.

My guess is valve stem seals first, followed by the oil rings.

That....is the easy part.  The hard part is tearing a fresh engine down. :(

~Joe

Offline hndlbrs

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Re: rebuilt top end - white smoke on first startup
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2010, 01:40:25 PM »
The machine shop did replace 2 guides and said the rest were ok.

I am assuming the seals were good since I purchased them new off eBay but maybe not.
Is there an easy way to check them?

Offline nancy

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Re: rebuilt top end - white smoke on first startup
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2010, 01:53:32 PM »
Past experience with a rebuild of a car engine - this was a symptom of my brother-in-law fitting the oil ring upside down.

Offline hndlbrs

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Re: rebuilt top end - white smoke on first startup
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2010, 06:09:20 PM »
If this turns out to be the case, that the oil rings were put in upside down, will it work to just flip them over, or will they be no good anymore?

Also, as Joe mentioned earlier, I am assuming the valve stem seals are good, but maybe not?. I did some searching to find out if there was an easy way to check if the stem seals were bad without replacing them, and could not find anything. Anyone know of a way to check this with the head still on the bike?

Or, I do have a spare head gasket, so i can pull the head off if I have to, just trying to do the easiest thing first.

I did come across this thread:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=7170.0

It got me thinking that the machine shop replaced 2 guides only, as they said the others were fine. and they put bronze ones in. I'm pretty sure the bike has never had head work done before, so that means 6 guides are still the original ones.

the valve stem seals were blue in color, and I did not get them from honda, so I assume they were aftermarket.

maybe there is a problem with the new seals not staying in place on the original guides?

i should mention that plug number 3 looked really clean in comparison to the others, but that was also where there seemed to be an exhaust leak at the exhaust gasket.

I think I am going to order a new gasket kit through honda and try it all again, right down to the rings.

This is going to hurt :'(

it mentions a lip

Offline hndlbrs

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Re: rebuilt top end - white smoke on first startup
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2010, 01:25:00 AM »
okay so tonight I tore off the head and barrels.

Turns out we had a couple of the rings upside down  :-[

Oops!

got a bit too tired to try putting it all back together, for now was pretty happy to know what the error was  :)

Thanks to all who replied. This site is the bomb!!!

I'm glad this happened actually, it's teaching me way more in the end.

Now a question about the ring end gap. I measured one of the rings in the barrel and the gao was .005.  I read in an earlier post Emerick (?) had posted something saying that the ring end gap should be a minimum  .004 for every inch of bore. My bore is just over 2 and 1/16 inches, so I figure my end gap should be a minimum of .009. Does this sound right? Clymer manual says the max for a 550 is around .028 (gettin tired, but I think that's close)

I thought maybe .010 would be what I would shoot for. Is this a safe gap?

How close should all the ring gaps be to each other, do they all have to be the same?

Also, having idled and revved the bike for 3 consecutive periods of about 3-4 minutes each (allowing about 30 minutes cool down between each run), and not having put the engine under a load, is it likely I damaged anything by not setting the gap wide enough?

Jacob

Offline faux fiddy

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Re: rebuilt top end - white smoke on first startup
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2010, 02:52:06 AM »
Years ago I put my oil scraper rings in upside down or wrong on my first 836 build on a 750 and smoked so bad I killed all the bugs everywhere I went. Not sure if your have the same set-up  ???

+1
There was another thread with a fresh top end rebuild  and it was a big smoker. Guy said he took it out away from his neighborhood just  to run it a bit without spectacle.  I thought this could be important/possible culprit for his deal after I thought about it.  Those rings are marked for this side up.
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Offline MRieck

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Re: rebuilt top end - white smoke on first startup
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2010, 08:45:44 AM »
okay so tonight I tore off the head and barrels.

Turns out we had a couple of the rings upside down  :-[

Oops!

got a bit too tired to try putting it all back together, for now was pretty happy to know what the error was  :)

Thanks to all who replied. This site is the bomb!!!

I'm glad this happened actually, it's teaching me way more in the end.

Now a question about the ring end gap. I measured one of the rings in the barrel and the gao was .005.  I read in an earlier post Emerick (?) had posted something saying that the ring end gap should be a minimum  .004 for every inch of bore. My bore is just over 2 and 1/16 inches, so I figure my end gap should be a minimum of .009. Does this sound right? Clymer manual says the max for a 550 is around .028 (gettin tired, but I think that's close)

I thought maybe .010 would be what I would shoot for. Is this a safe gap?

How close should all the ring gaps be to each other, do they all have to be the same?

Also, having idled and revved the bike for 3 consecutive periods of about 3-4 minutes each (allowing about 30 minutes cool down between each run), and not having put the engine under a load, is it likely I damaged anything by not setting the gap wide enough?

Jacob
A minimum of .003 per inch with NA engines......004 is very safe
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline hndlbrs

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Re: rebuilt top end - white smoke on first startup
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2010, 09:35:41 AM »
Ahhhhhhhhh, MRiek
my friend said your name from across the shop as he read your post from his iPhone.
I heard "Emerick". Haha

okay so then a gap of .007 - .008 should be the target then.
Thank you, sir :)

tonight after work will be filing rings and getting this old girl purring.
Soon when she's all buttoned up I will be posting pics. Errrr... I mean taking her for a burn THEN posting pics.

Offline faux fiddy

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Re: rebuilt top end - white smoke on first startup
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2010, 11:41:44 AM »
I found the thread I was thinking of, along with another one.

This one may need to go into FAQ  AND TRICKS AND TIPS  for people getting read up on doing a top end! It might save someone a lot of hassle.

Rebuilt top end burning HUGE amounts of oil.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=60893.msg695085#msg695085

"350F puking oil"
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=7016.msg64957#msg64957


I figured it would burn off after a few minutes. But it did not. In fact, it filled my neighborhood with noxious smoke.

I coasted it down the hill to a wider, less populated street and started it back up. Let it run for 20 minutes. Still churned out the same amount of smoke with no signs of letting up. And it appears to be coming from all four cylinders more or less equally. 

When I got it back home, I checked the oil. Dipstick was bone dry, though I had refilled the crankcase after reassembly.
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Offline HawaiiMike

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Re: rebuilt top end - white smoke on first startup
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2010, 11:55:22 AM »
Oh boy now you've got me wondering.  I have a 555cc kit from E-bay too.  The oil ring is one piece, seems like there's no right side up or upside down.  Still putting the bike back together so I don't know if it's going to smoke.

Offline faux fiddy

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Re: rebuilt top end - white smoke on first startup
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2010, 04:15:32 PM »
Oh boy now you've got me wondering.  I have a 555cc kit from E-bay too.  The oil ring is one piece, seems like there's no right side up or upside down.  Still putting the bike back together so I don't know if it's going to smoke.

Look real close near the gaps if the rings are not installed yet, the marks are very tiny.

One of those threads describes a difference in the shapes of the edges,  too.
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Offline HawaiiMike

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Re: rebuilt top end - white smoke on first startup
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2010, 05:38:17 PM »
My motor is back together but I didn't put the carbs and exhaust on yet.  Makes more sense to take it apart now than see if it smokes after.

There's a 50% chance that I got each oil ring right.  X 4 = a 1 in 8 chance that I got them all in right.  Not very good odds.

Offline hndlbrs

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Re: rebuilt top end - white smoke on first startup
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2010, 06:43:15 PM »
If you are referring to the NOS 555cc big bore kit from eBay this is likely the same kit. There are 3 rings. 2 are single piece and one is a double ring. Of the 2 single rings, one has a rectangular side profile and one is notched on the rim. The rectangular one goes on top with the manufacturer's mark facing up (look under a magnifying glass and you will see it. Mine had a tiny number 3 stamped on it) The middle ring is the notched one, notched side down (again, look for the mark to be facing up.

The bottom ring is the double, mark faces up.

Ha, listen to me doling out advice now.

See, learning this stuff is easy, you just have to screw it up the first time for it to really sink in  ;D

Offline HawaiiMike

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Re: rebuilt top end - white smoke on first startup
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2010, 06:52:56 PM »
I guess you got your motor fixed then?

This must be the same kit like this one right?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190401790128&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_5286wt_843

I got the second rings right.  Top ones - I didn't look for any marks.  Oil rings - I didn't look for any marks.

Definitely gotta take the top end off.  Oh well, better now since I had not put everything back on yet.

Great thing we have this forum!  Remember the old days - pre-internet?  How would we have solved problems like this?


Offline hndlbrs

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Re: rebuilt top end - white smoke on first startup
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2010, 09:13:52 PM »
Well no, it's not together yet. But I can remember when assembling the engine the Clymer manual said to make sure the mark was facing up. Not looking close enough I couldn't see any mark, so I made some assumptions based on the diagrams in the manual, which are not always easy to read. Had I known about this forum back then I would have asked before I got it all together... :(

When I tore it down to check, I looked under a magnifying glass and the marks were in fact there after all. I defininitely had about 3 cylinders worth of them upside down. I'd say that was my problem, assuming the machine shop did my head right. I'm sure they're more competent than I was.

I'm confident now that at least the piston rings part of this build will be right...

Offline faux fiddy

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Re: rebuilt top end - white smoke on first startup
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2010, 12:36:06 AM »
I guess you got your motor fixed then?

This must be the same kit like this one right?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190401790128&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_5286wt_843

I got the second rings right.  Top ones - I didn't look for any marks.  Oil rings - I didn't look for any marks.

Definitely gotta take the top end off.  Oh well, better now since I had not put everything back on yet.

Great thing we have this forum!  Remember the old days - pre-internet?  How would we have solved problems like this?



No internet and commeradery of people with all those parts sitting in someone's never to be used junk piles that caring souls would rather see someone on the road rather than have boxes of junk.

Gotta love it!
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Offline HawaiiMike

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Re: rebuilt top end - white smoke on first startup
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2010, 03:03:36 PM »
For anybody else with one of these kits, here's a picture of the top ring and the oil ring.  The middle ring is pretty easy to figure out because it has that cutaway at the bottom.

Good thing I read this thread before I finished putting the bike back together!