Author Topic: Brand new clutch is slipping, is it my oil?  (Read 10859 times)

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Offline adamb

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Brand new clutch is slipping, is it my oil?
« on: June 24, 2010, 09:39:59 PM »
So, I just finished putting in a clutch two nights ago. 

Brand new plates, brand new springs (springs came in a set of six, but I only needed four.  Hmm.).

New plates definitely thicker than old plates.  New springs not noticeably "harder" than old springs.

Put it all together, tossed in some Mobil Fully synthetic oil.

Took it for a short ride yesterday:  not much slippage, but it certainly didn't "grab" like my dirt bike's clutch will.

Today, rode it to work, and it's starting to slip if I pour on the power around 5k RPM.  That's worse than before!

Clutch lever on the handlebars and at the bottom end of the cable is adjusted fine.  I wondered if it was the adjustment on the clutch cover - nope, things are fine there.

I'm not trying to start an oil thread again, as I've researched those - but should I drop in some normal oil and see what happens?   Seriously, I'm pissed off here.  I know how to do clutches, and I just can't figure out what the HECK is wrong.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Brand new clutch is slipping, is it my oil?
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2010, 09:47:33 PM »
How long did you soak the fiber plates before installation?

Did you measure the spring Height?
Did you measure the thickness of the steels and frictions?

Which direction did you align the spiral grooves (or were they straight cut)?

Probably would help if we knew what bike you are talking about.

Bike doesn't care if you are pissed off.  Being pissed off hasn't fixed any bikes that I know of.

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Offline adamb

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Re: Brand new clutch is slipping, is it my oil?
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2010, 09:50:26 PM »
Sorry, I'm exhausted, and not thinking straight.

1. 1981 CB 650 Custom.
2. Didn't measure the spring height, sorry.
3. Didn't see any spiral grooves anywhere; but I did see that there were some odd channels in the steel plates, so I aligned those.
4. Didn't soak the fiber plates, but they got a 24 hour or so soak in the oil after I put in the clutch.

Again, sorry if I'm being a dumbass.  I've done this.. three times before on other bikes (with zero problems) but having mono again is certainly catching up with me. 

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Brand new clutch is slipping, is it my oil?
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2010, 09:57:42 PM »
Soaking the fibers is supposed to help make them swell up/soften some.  Spring pressure squeezes the oil out, so you can't really expect them to soak and swell while in the bike.

I don't know what the stack height or the spring height is supposed to be for the 650. Sorry.  Maybe someone else will chime in for that and be of better help to you.

Good luck.

P.S. Did the oil you used say something on the bottle about "energy conserving"?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Brand new clutch is slipping, is it my oil?
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2010, 09:59:45 PM »
If that synthetic has friction modifiers {energy conserving} in it it will probably make it slip, wet clutches don't like them at all..

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Offline adamb

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Re: Brand new clutch is slipping, is it my oil?
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2010, 10:21:36 PM »
Looking at the manual for the 1980, looks like I did everything right.  The only question is whether or not the notches in the steel plates are perfectly aligned with the little notches on the pressure plate, I'm pretty sure I did.  The new plates (which I measured) are at spec for clutch plates.  

Springs... I can't test their resistance, but I can test their size if I pull them off again.  I can also measure the old ones:  The old ones are within the length spec.  ~36mm, with 35.4 being what's mentioned in the manual.

Offline adamb

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Re: Brand new clutch is slipping, is it my oil?
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2010, 10:22:41 PM »
I'll pick up some regular 10w-30 tomorrow (sadly, I have some, but it's not quite enough - crap!) and see how she goes...

Offline dave500

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Re: Brand new clutch is slipping, is it my oil?
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2010, 12:43:57 AM »
as retro said about the oil,what type was it?is it bike specific?friction modifiers WILL make your clutch slip,i dont want to start an oil debate either,or iether.

Offline adamb

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Re: Brand new clutch is slipping, is it my oil?
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2010, 10:05:29 AM »
It's just Mobil 1 fully synthetic 10w-30.  It doesn't report to be 'energy conserving'. 

I'm going to swing by the honda shop on my way home and pick up a new filter and some of their fancy-pants 10w-30SJ oil.

Would you suggest I take off my clutch and soak the plates in gas to try to "remove" any of the ill effects of the synthetic oil?  Or should a nice, long bath in "proper motorcycle oil" be enough to clean things up?


Offline TwoTired

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Re: Brand new clutch is slipping, is it my oil?
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2010, 10:26:55 AM »
I don't believe Mobil 1 is the issue with your clutch.
However, even if it were, it is pretty unlikely that a bath in "standard" oil will fix it.  Whatever oil you use, let the frictions soak for 24 hours before assembly.

Measure the stack height and spring height when you have it apart.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline adamb

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Re: Brand new clutch is slipping, is it my oil?
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2010, 11:28:10 PM »
The spring I measured (kit had 6 springs, clutch requires four) is ~38mm, and 34.5 is listed as spec in the manual. So those are good.   Resistance is roughly the same, just squeezing them with my fingers (not a very precise measurement, but I have nothing better.)

Taking the bike apart tomorrow morning.


Offline Bamboozler

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Re: Brand new clutch is slipping, is it my oil?
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2010, 12:22:08 AM »
I don’t know if noting a slipping situation I had and it’s easy fix would help you, but maybe?  I installed a clutch kit this spring and adjusted the clutch cable adjusting bolt (clutch housing side) to where it moved or preloaded the clutch arm a little bit.  The clutch slipped on me under a decent amount of load/boost.  I realized the preloading of the clutch arm was actually disengaging the clutch slightly.  I readjusted and locked the adjusting bolt where it just started to move the clutch arm (the arm connected to the spring).  After that adjustment the slipping ceased and hasn’t done so since.
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Offline adamb

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Re: Brand new clutch is slipping, is it my oil?
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2010, 12:48:03 AM »
Thanks for the advice bamboozler, but I took that into account and did some extra adjustment of that yesterday. I took another spin after adjusting the clutch cover adjustment, and it wasn't any better - so I wasn't pre-loading at all.   I honestly wished I had pre-loaded, since it would have saved me a lot of time, effort, and money.

( time passes)
I just took off my clutch. The springs on it are fine (37mm) and the plates appear to be just fine, too (.14" for disc A, .10" for disc B).  Again, I have no way of knowing if they aren't "strong" enough unless I build some sort of fish-scale type of setup, which I really don't want to do.  

Steel plates appear to be just fine, too.  

According to one of the guys at the honda shop , the clutch might slip 'for up to a whole tank' after installation; this flies in the face of my previous experience, but he also said I should soak the plates - hence taking my clutch back apart.

So, the plates are soaking in some SJ oil, and I've got 3 quarts of 10w-30SJ from Honda sitting in my garage, waiting for my plates to completely soak.  FWIW, the plates didn't seem to be *all* that oil-soaked, not like when I took off the old clutch, but then again, the clutch went in two days ago and didn't have much time to soak.  The previous clutch probably had a good 30 years to soak.

So, here we are.  Tomorrow night I'll put the clutch back on, and Sunday I'll take it for a spin. (I might also do a bit of spring cleaning on the clutch side of the engine; putting in fresh oil appears to have loosened a few things up in there, so I ought to wipe things down a bit in there.)

New filter and oil filter bolt is also going in.  If this doesn't work... well, I dunno.  I might just have to change the timing so I don't have enough power to slip my clutch ;)
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 10:44:24 PM by adamb »

Offline dave500

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Re: Brand new clutch is slipping, is it my oil?
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2010, 02:45:36 AM »
i reversed the caps under the spring bolts on my 500,ide tried heavy duty springs that were worse!

Online fire113

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Re: Brand new clutch is slipping, is it my oil?
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2010, 05:53:27 AM »
... did You checked the clutch cable ?


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Offline haill

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Re: Brand new clutch is slipping, is it my oil?
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2010, 06:08:33 AM »
there was a post on here about "tuning" your clutch some of it had to do with making sure all the clutch plates and friction plates went together in the same direction. Since they are stamp by machine they have a burr on one side. all of the plates should have the burr on the same side when assembled so friction is limited.
Make sure all the clutch parts are working properly IE. the adjusters etc for they all form a part in making the clutch work perfectly together.

Offline adamb

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Re: Brand new clutch is slipping, is it my oil?
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2010, 08:52:44 AM »
All adjusters are fine.  I've already addressed that twice.

I haven't noticed any burrs, but I'll look when I put things back together, although I saw nothing of the sort earlier.

Offline haill

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Re: Brand new clutch is slipping, is it my oil?
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2010, 10:30:29 AM »
here is the info that maybe some use to you.
QUOTE
" How To Inspect and Reassemble Clutch Pack Assembly
 Let me begin by saying that this will not only work for any Honda, but for other wet (or dry clutch) brand brand bikes you also own. This is pretty much universal as far as multi-clutch pack assembly goes. This post is a generic clutch/friction assembly procedure, and does no entail all aspects of troubleshooting clutch drag, failures, lubrication assembly, torque specs, hard part inspections, etc. You are welcome to add these features, and other important information as you like to this thread.
Basically, this article points out "two special steps" for clutch assembly. I have included a minor plate inspection/assembly, and a clutch adjustment procedure. It is totally optional for those who would like to experiment.

I will open with the clutch adjustment, by stating that it will probably raise eyebrows in the way I set my final clutch lever, and adjuster throw-out screw positions.
I used this same lever/ throw-out adjust system on my 1100GS BMW. I've heard about all the negative complaints about the BMW clutches not lasting. Believe me, I am not the nicest person when it comes to riding. It goes back in the barn soaking wet. The BMW clutch never slipped, never lost it's free-play at the lever, could carry the front wheel through most gears, and clocked 36K "hard" miles before it was sold. Not one problem ever occurred with the clutch system or had it's related parts fail, snap, break or ever replaced.
Not that I will tell you to do this on your bikes, but I used "Zero" free-play on my BMW, as well as all other clutch levers in my stable of bikes. There is literally nothing (1/16-1/8" freeplay) there. Once you pull on the clutch lever, the throw-out pin is pushing on the pressure plate right then and there. I also never pull the clutch in all the way to shift. I hardly move the C-lever upon foot selection. Neutral is the easiest click to find. With that said, Here is how I have set up my clutch plates for all my race bikes, customer, and personal street bikes. Customer clutch lever freeplay were of course, set per book specs.

Steel Plates:
When the Manufacturer makes the steel plates from a raw sheet of metal, they stamp out these parts. You will notice a round edge, and a flat edge. One side you can easily cut yourself with. This is the part (cut edge) you want to look for. Some steel plates will have the special riveted (chatter) plate placed somewhere in the middle, or along somewhere in the pack assembly. Remember to note the cut edge of this plate assembly as well.
The steels have what's known as "Memory". Because of the stamping, the curve of the metal will be in one direction. To illustrate this, place your palms against each other and touch your fingers as if you were praying to your chosen Deity. Now press your fingers against each other. Notice how each finger fights the other. Now place the palm of your hand over the back of your hand. Press you fingers over your other fingers. Notice how they move in the same direction and not fight each other? This is the same example for the steel frictions. PLACE ALL STEELS IN ONE DIRECTION. This is the "first" of two keys to clutch assembly steps.
If you place the steel's cut-edge all in the same direction, they will not fight each other. In other words, one cut edge will not be facing the other against a friction, and the steel plate on the other side (of the friction) will not have to cause extra drag on the fiber plates as the pack is released. This is one of the reasons it is hard to find neutral. You have an ever so slight clutch drag of the bike. The touching load is moving the bike forward when you have the clutch lever pulled in all the way. It is somewhat of an exaggeration, but please understand the point...this is dragging the clutch pack in a subtle way.
Indiscriminately installing the clutches in any ol' direction, will give poor performance to the whole clutch pack assembly.
This is not the main reason, but a contributing reason why clutches do not last long if installed incorrectly. There is a percentage loss to compression of the clutch assembly when a steel or friction is facing in the opposite direction, and not lined up in it's "Memory" facing assembly. The loss is slight, but insufficient clamping or holding. The steel in the wrong direction is forming a gap against the friction side of the other steel in the correct direction. To illustrate this...touch your finger tips again, and look at the gap between your palms. This is somewhat of a poor illustration on my part, but it is theory none the less, to show you how a steel plate reacts when placed opposite each other, as opposed to both in the same direction.

Friction Plates:
The single style spiral friction plate will be obvious as to their direction of assembly. This is the centrifugal pad cut direction, to fling off the oil between steel and frictions. Follow the friction "spiral pad cuts" for correct direction. Other frictions will have to be inspected for their stampings if the pad material is in the "square type design cuts". The aluminum plates (direction) might be harder to recognize. There are a few visuals to look for. Note the directional spiral plate and match the stamping this way with the other friction plates. Some will have a printed ink stamping on one side of the aluminum plate. Use this as your guide. Some aluminum frictions will have a cut edge to them. As long as the uniformity is consistent and in one direction, you have a better chance that the frictions will act in a consistent manor, than just throwing each friction in the (clutch outer) housing in any direction. Just look for consistency with each friction, and place them all (friction and steels) in the same direction.

Steel/Friction Plate Inspection:
If you feel that all the steels and frictions are lined up together and you still find there is drag or it's hard to find neutral, then most likely there is one or two warped steels or frictions causing the problem. Of course you can go by the book, place each steel on a flat surface and check warpage with a feeler gage. This is one way of making sure you find a faulty steel plate. Another inspection, is to line up all the steels in it's memory direction (cuts all facing in one direction) and hold them all (on top of each other) in your hand in a stacked (static) formation. You simply turn the steels (all at once) and inspect for a gap between each other. If you find one, remove it. Then rotate the stack again to look for all the steels to lay flat on each other without any gaps between them. You will shuffle the stack repeatedly and make sure that a steel that was on the bottom, is now somewhere in the middle, as well as the top steel placed at a different levels.... and again, rotate the whole pack, looking for gaps. Once you have done this to just about every steel/friction plate being placed at all location levels, you can determine if they will be reusable. Discard those that cause a gap. Finally, check for the steel and friction (thickness) "serviceable limit" measurements, and are within specs.

Clutch Assembly Placement:
It is critical that the frictions and steels directions are facing the "Pressure Plate." Let's say you have another Metric bike that has the pressure plate being the last installed part into the clutch outer cage. Then if that is the case, all (cut) friction and steel plates... "FACE THE PRESSURE PLATE." This is the "second" key point of this article.
If the pressure plate is the first part (like CBX-F's) to be installed inside the clutch outer, then all cut edges face (inward) to the pressure plate. So no matter what design you have, always face the... "steel/friction cut edges toward the pressure plate." As stated above, spiral style pads are placed in clutch assembly rotation. In other words, if the clutch spins counter-clockwise, then the spiral pads facing you is in the forward slash (/) position. Note how the spiral friction would rotate to fling the oil outside of it's groove. If the clutch pack rotates clockwise, then reverse the spiral pointing is in the back-slash (\) position.

Clutch cable/ throw-out adjustment:
Here is where the adjustment for some of you becomes scary. Run the thumb wheel and knurled end adjuster all the way in at the clutch lever housing, so no threads are showing. Go down to the end of the cutch cable and apply the same adjustment to the bolt and nut cable ends. Run the nut and adjuster up to the cable end and hide the threads. This should be where the cable is at it's loosest position.
Loosen the lock nut and turn the throw-out screw "in" until it lightly seats. Do not go any further but to touch the clutch lifter assembly. You know you are going in the right direction with the screw, if you watch or feel the lever arm begin to "move down" as you screw the adjuster screw in the correct direction. Turn the screw out 3/16ths to 1/4 turn if you are brave, or book spec if you rather feel safe in your mind. Lock the nut down, making sure the screw does not move as your set the nut.
Take up most all of the cable slack by lengthening the cable adjuster threaded end at the clutch lifter arm. Keep feeling the clutch lever until you feel the cable free-play being taken up at the hand lever. Once you can feel a 1/16th to an 1/8 inch of free-play at the lever/housing, lock down the nut on the bottom cable adjuster. Your final adjustment will be at the thumb wheel and knurled screw at the handle bar.
If you feel you rather stay with the required lever gap from the factory manual, you may now make your final adjustment per book specs.
If you rather experiment with a tighter clutch lever, then run the knurled screw out to the point where there is no free-play. The lightest touch to the lever will not create a gap between the housing and lever pivot. This is an extreme setting, and may cause clutch slippage if not properly set. The text here might throw you off as to how it is to be adjusted. You will have to experiment to know the "feel" where it is safe to have a tight cable and not so tight, as to load the clutch push rod where it is about to be disengaged.

Conclusion:
Anyone who installed their clutch pack recently, and indiscriminately installed the steels without this basic installation process, my want to reevaluate the assembly. You may find you still have a hard time finding neutral after you install all new parts.
The way to install the steels (and frictions) described above, will help the longevity to the clutch pack, and give you some of the smoothest shifts, as if the bike was as new as the day you bought it. Finding neutral will also be one of the chief benefits to this clutch assembly/lever pull.
Remember to inspect the steels/frictions for warpage. No matter how well you followed directions and execution, one warped steel/friction will not "cut' it." END QUOTE



Offline adamb

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Re: Brand new clutch is slipping, is it my oil?
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2010, 01:52:56 AM »
Put the clutch back together tonight, but at 12:45 AM, it's no time to go for a spin (although it'll be getting light enough to ride again without headlights in an hour or two).

They soaked for 24 hours, and now they're all in the case and buttoned up. 

Per the pasted text above, I lined up the steels with the cut side all on one side, but I couldn't find any 'direction' or 'cut' direction on the friction plates, so I just did my best.   (For the record, when I put it together the first time, they were the all facing the same direction from when I took the clutch plates off. I simply took the stack out, and put the stack back on, replacing the worn friction plates with the new ones.)

The clutch cover adjustment: I turned the screw all the way in until I felt resistance, then turned it out just a hair so it wasn't pre-loading  the clutch. 

Tomorrow afternoon I'll take it for a spin, and see how she goes. Hopefully all is well, and I don't have a slipping clutch anymore.

Offline hosspowerinc

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Re: Brand new clutch is slipping, is it my oil?
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2010, 06:11:12 AM »
Mobil 1 10w-30 IS energy conserving and will make your clutch slip almost instantly. Only their 5w-50 has no friction modifiers in it. You must buy diesel or motorcycle specific oil, not auto. I prefer Rotella as its cheap and works great.

Offline adamb

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Re: Brand new clutch is slipping, is it my oil?
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2010, 09:56:27 AM »
Hm, there's nothing on the bottle that says energy conserving, but I'll take your word for it, I s'pose - it's raining today, so I may n ot be able to test the clutch out today.

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Brand new clutch is slipping, is it my oil?
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2010, 12:47:10 PM »
Jeez, can't believe I'm replying to an oil thread  :), but I've been using Mobil 1 10w40 for several years. It does not say e-conserving as stated and I have no clutch slippage.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 02:35:54 PM by Bob Wessner »
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Offline hosspowerinc

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Re: Brand new clutch is slipping, is it my oil?
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2010, 01:31:31 PM »
Jeez, can't believe I'm replying to an oil thread, but I've been using Mobil 1 10w40 for several years. It does not say e-conserving as stated and I have no clutch slippage.

But its motorcycle specific right? Im pretty sure the OP used the auto spec 10w-30.

Offline adamb

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Re: Brand new clutch is slipping, is it my oil?
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2010, 10:15:35 PM »
Update: Took it for a quick spin when I got home tonight, and it's still slipping.  2 miles probably isn't a good test ride, so I'll take it for a ride next time it stops raining.  I'll ride it nice and easy for 50 miles or so and see how it goes. 

FWIW, it's fine in first and second, it's only from third to fifth that it start having issues. 


Offline scottly

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Re: Brand new clutch is slipping, is it my oil?
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2010, 10:34:00 PM »
I don't believe Mobil 1 is the issue with your clutch.

Measure the stack height and spring height when you have it apart.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 10:36:08 PM by scottly »
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