Author Topic: Carbs Back On, Not Happy  (Read 3071 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Popwood

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 914
Carbs Back On, Not Happy
« on: July 05, 2010, 10:42:36 AM »
This is a 75 750K that I've had for about a year. It was running reasonably strong before the carb clean and the two minor issues I had were mild carbon fouling on the plugs and a bit of popping exhaust, especially at low revs. Carbs are stock and exhaust is stock as is air-box. Air filter one-year old.

After pulling the carbs off and removed them from stay plate, one of the first odd things I found was one main jet was a 90 and others 95. I checked and proper jet size is 105. I got the jets from local parts repair shop and they weren't new but they were 105s and fit the jet holder well. The slow jets are 40s per spec.

All in all, the carbs weren't so dirty inside but I thoroughly cleaned them, inside and out. Removed all the removable parts, soaked them in carb cleaner for awhile then used the tiny guitar string to make sure all the tiny holes were clear then used compressed air to blow out. I kept all the parts from carb together so they'd go back from where they came.

Three of the four float levels needed adjusting and I'm relatively certain I have them set per spec. The throttle valve slid nicely. I made certain the choke was closing and opening fully. Re-assembled the rack and bench-synced. Air screws out 1 turn.

As part of this overhaul, I did a wintergreen treatment on the carb boots, both intake and exhaust. Found a hole in one airbox boot so replaced all four air-box boots. I just saw a thread about these needing to be aligned properly when installed. I didn't see a need for this so maybe someone could advise on alignment?

All back together, with new fuel lines- 5.9mm from Honda. No kinks or restrictions. Started right up, first try in two seconds. I next checked timing. 1/4 good, 2/3 off. I've run out of adjustment on the timing plate but elongated one slot to get as much as possible. Points look good and condensers relatively new. Points were gapped at .014 but I found I could get a bit more adjustment by gapping at .012-- still within spec. Best I could do was get 2/3 T mark within about 1/8" behind timing mark. 1/4 was good. Advance timing looked fine.

Installed new plugs, switching to Denso X24ES-U. Had used DS8E. Did a carb sync and that went easily. All the bottom-end clank at low rev in neutral went away.

Test ride. Exhaust popping at low revs or idle gone. There was a decided stutter-- like a momentary cut-out, jerkyness-- between 5-6K rpm on fast acceleration.  Went over everything and did find I could tighten the boot clamps a bit more. This seemed to help some on next test ride. But question: these are original clamps and they will screw together all the way. I could turn the boot when on the engine mount before the carbs went back on. I think the residual wintergreen oil made them a bit slippery. I think they are tight, but perhaps could be tighter?

Last night, and again today, took it out on highway. When I took a handful of throttle it would again stutter and jet a bit jerky in the 7K rpm range. I also found there was no power left to get above 70/75 mph. Back home, pulled plugs and they were heavy carbon fouled.

Sorry for the long post, but wanted to provide as much info as possible.  Appreciate help in sorting out the problem or problems.   
Current Rides:
1975 cb550K
1975 cb750K
1967 Bridgestone 350GTR

Past Rides:
1988 400 Hawk
195? Schwinn Whizzer

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Carbs Back On, Not Happy
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2010, 11:10:15 AM »
What slide needle clip position did you use?
Did you see any wear on the slide needles?

Some have reported that the 750 needles are not held firmly and they wear against the needle seats.  This changes the taper and throttle valve size, and will make the mid-range throttle operation over rich.

I don't think the CB750 boots have an alignment issue due to their different air box design from the 550s.


Have you seen the FAQ about shimming the points plate to restore timing travel?  Do you know the brand of points you are using?  There are reports of DIACHI points not having the correct geometry.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Popwood

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 914
Re: Carbs Back On, Not Happy
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2010, 11:26:13 AM »
Thanks, TT. Needle clip is second from bottom. I looked at the needles for wear when I cleaned them. But in truth, I don't have any comparative knowledge or experience to judge worn from OK. The small bevel at the tip seemed uniform in shape. And my needles are not held firm in the holder.

Yes, TT, I've read your fix on the shimming of the points plate several times and did try it. As I recollect, the idea is to place a shim between the plate mount "ear" and the plate. When I tried it, didn't seem I could get a shim large enough in that space to make any real difference. Instead, I elongated the lower left plate adjustment slot so the plate would rotate more clockwise. Now, the plate securing screw on lower right will not allow further clockwise movement because it is up against the 2/3 points plate. I don't know the brand points on there now. I have a new set from Honda but without a new plate, I didn't think that would help.
Current Rides:
1975 cb550K
1975 cb750K
1967 Bridgestone 350GTR

Past Rides:
1988 400 Hawk
195? Schwinn Whizzer

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Carbs Back On, Not Happy
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2010, 11:49:47 AM »
Did you try the shim on different posts?  What size shim did you use?

Did you see a shiny spot on the needles?

Didi you examine closely for wear patterns on the needle jets?  Check their inner diameter?

Did all the spark plugs show the level of fouling?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Popwood

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 914
Re: Carbs Back On, Not Happy
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2010, 12:05:41 PM »
From my feeler gauge set, the only ones bent are .0002, .0003 (both used for setting valves) and .0004. I recall using bent gauges so would say the largest possible shim was .004. I think I only tried shimming lower right mount post.

All plugs are fouled equally, velvet-like dusting of black soot.

I didn't check the opening size of the needle jet and don't recall seeing any glaring shiny area along the length of the needle.

Current Rides:
1975 cb550K
1975 cb750K
1967 Bridgestone 350GTR

Past Rides:
1988 400 Hawk
195? Schwinn Whizzer

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 17,008
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: Carbs Back On, Not Happy
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2010, 12:29:05 PM »
check the plug caps for excessive resistance.

Offline Popwood

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 914
Re: Carbs Back On, Not Happy
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2010, 01:18:41 PM »
A correction-- and you caught me being lazy; but it is 94 degrees out there.

To the question of all plugs fouled equally? I had pulled #s 1, 2 and 4 and they all looked just the same. So I just pulled #3 and it looks close to normal if not a bit lean. When the neighborhood parts dealer sold me the used 105 main jets, they were not all of the same manufacture, one was different. A clue?

I'm beginning to think I should just get new, Honda needles and jets as we know they will be good and match. I think in the meantime I'll also switch out the original boot clamps for some regular hose clamps. Those I can crank down and be certain there are no leaks.
Current Rides:
1975 cb550K
1975 cb750K
1967 Bridgestone 350GTR

Past Rides:
1988 400 Hawk
195? Schwinn Whizzer

Offline Popwood

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 914
Re: Carbs Back On, Not Happy
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2010, 02:21:42 PM »
Went to Auto Zone for hose clamps but seems hose clamps are wider than OEM Honda clamps which fit in a groove. What have others done as replacement clamps? I suspect that the wintergreen treatment on the boots made them soft enough that the old clamps will close totally before getting them as tight as they may need to be. I was thinking of adding some sort of "wrap" in the groove to slightly increase the diameter thereby getting more clamp pressure. What I find, as is, with one clamp on engine side it totally closes but I can still twist the boot with some effort. I'd feel better if I tightened the clamp as much as I could before it runs out of closing space. 
Current Rides:
1975 cb550K
1975 cb750K
1967 Bridgestone 350GTR

Past Rides:
1988 400 Hawk
195? Schwinn Whizzer

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Carbs Back On, Not Happy
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2010, 03:51:38 PM »
If the boots were leaking, symptoms would be a lean condition, as they would allow more air in than expected.
FYI, you don't have clamp the snot out of the boot clamps.  They weren't fully closed up when new.  They were only closed enough to make a seal.  Has over-tightening permanently deformed the boots?

Have you checked for them leaking or are you just assuming they are, rather than going after something more difficult to get at?

Since you have a carb that appears to working as desired, why don't you measure and compare part dimensions of the rich carbs with the carb parts that are behaving more like what you are seeking?

I'd prefer to find "the smoking gun" and feel confident that parts replacement will certainly help rather than buy and hope new parts work out for the best.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Popwood

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 914
Re: Carbs Back On, Not Happy
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2010, 06:40:30 PM »
So here's an update. After dinner, I dropped the carb bowls and traded out the 105s main jets for what they replaced, the 3, 95 mains and one 90. Went for a ride. No flat spots, plenty of throttle, no hesitation at any throttle position.  Red lined + three of or four times and no blubbering, stuttering all the way to 8K rpm plus and still had throttle to go. Felt strong. 

On return, pulled No. 1 and 4 plugs. Still some carbon fouling, but not nearly as bad as with the 105 mains. So what do I do now?

1) Nothing, it's running very good except for some carbon fouling, leave well enough alone.

2) Spend close to $100 and replace needles and jets to stock using genuine Honda parts?

3) Do a real plug chop test to determine what the plugs look like at higher rpm? Maybe it's better than what I'm reading after pulling into the garage.


 
Current Rides:
1975 cb550K
1975 cb750K
1967 Bridgestone 350GTR

Past Rides:
1988 400 Hawk
195? Schwinn Whizzer

Offline Popwood

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 914
Re: Carbs Back On, Not Happy (Update)
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2010, 06:56:23 PM »
Update: So here's another update. Drove to work and back today, about 13 miles. Was running strong. Checked two plugs this evening and they are fouled. Opened the air screws from 7/8 turn out to 1 1/4 out thinking I could lean out, lots of bogging off idle, some sputtering on test ride. Three more short rides bringing air screws back to 7/8 out. Same problem with very slight improvement.

I'm going to assume the plugs are too fouled to operate properly-- heavy carbon coat. So I'm back to where I started before carb clean and new air box boots and carb sync and new plugs. I tried using spec 105 main jets but these were carbon fouling and big loss of power. Could the needle be wrong for these? And they were not stock Honda jets. Do needle and main jets need to be matched parts?

Should I go with new stock main needle and stock jet set up? If so, I see Dennis Kirk has a complete rebuild kit with all the parts fro about $24. Bike Bandit has needle, clip and jet OEM for about the same money.

And on this '75 750k, can the needle be changed out with the carbs on the bike? I think not as the lifters would prevent removal. Oh boy, bet to take the carbs off again.


 

Current Rides:
1975 cb550K
1975 cb750K
1967 Bridgestone 350GTR

Past Rides:
1988 400 Hawk
195? Schwinn Whizzer

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,819
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Carbs Back On, Not Happy
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2010, 07:34:19 AM »
I'm sorry to say, this sounds like Keyster needles in the slides. This is precisely their symptom, because they taper too much, which lets the engine run very rich in the 1/4 to 1/2 throttle range. They are also often a little too long, and too thin. This makes them run very rich above 1/2 throttle, so the engine drowns in 10:1 rich mixtures when the slides are pulled wide open: you would need 25% more airflow and 60,000 volt coils to fire that (think turbo, CDI, Mallory coils...).

Pop: first thing to try - remove the carbs, pull out a needle, verify if the number on it is "27201" or "2701" (with possibly an "A" or "B" behind it). The former is Honda's, the latter is Keyster's. If Keysters, and you wish to ride again before you find some genuine Honda needles, drop the needles 2 notches in the slide (move the clip toward the blunt end 2 notches) and set the idle screws at about 7/8 to 15/16  of a turn. The CB750 carbs go leaner as the screw is turned in, richer as it comes out. This will leave you with a pronounced flat spot at about 65 MPH, but will at least keep you from running out of sparkplugs.

I have used common 1/2" wide hose claps on hard carb boots for many years, with good results. They are not as pretty, but do a good job of removing vacuum leaks. The wintergreen and xylol treatment I have been doing to (over a dozen of) them now works perfectly, making them like new! But, the old clamps do stretch. You can sometimes add some grip to them by installing a small washer on the screw (might have to nip off the sides of the washer to make it oval-ish to fit): I have done this many times, too.  ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Old Scrambler

  • My CB750K3 has been in 39 States & 5 Provinces
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,808
Re: Carbs Back On, Not Happy
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2010, 08:13:26 AM »
+1 with Mark.............I have experience with rebuilding the carbs on 305 twins as well as the CB750 and offer that used HONDA parts (Kiehin) are a better choice than anything that says Keyster. At your attitude I would think the 105s would give you a very smooth but slow bike.  I switched from 105s to 120s on my K3 with stock exhaust and significantly improved the mid-range power and top-end speed. The only change is a K&N filter and extra holes in the bottom of the air box.  Anxious to hear you results.........
Dennis in Wisconsin
'64 Triumph Cub & '74 Honda CB750 Bonneville Salt Flats AMA Record Holder (6)
CB750 Classic Bonneville Racer thread - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,135473.0.html
'63 CL72 Project(s)
'66 CL77 Red
'67 Triumph T100C
'73 750K3 Owned since New
'77 750F2 Cafe Project
2020 ROYAL ENFIELD Himalayan

Offline Popwood

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 914
Re: Carbs Back On, Not Happy
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2010, 06:34:07 PM »
I'm sorry to say, this sounds like Keyster needles in the slides. This is precisely their symptom, because they taper too much, which lets the engine run very rich in the 1/4 to 1/2 throttle range. They are also often a little too long, and too thin. This makes them run very rich above 1/2 throttle, so the engine drowns in 10:1 rich mixtures when the slides are pulled wide open: you would need 25% more airflow and 60,000 volt coils to fire that (think turbo, CDI, Mallory coils...).

Pop: first thing to try - remove the carbs, pull out a needle, verify if the number on it is "27201" or "2701" (with possibly an "A" or "B" behind it). The former is Honda's, the latter is Keyster's. If Keysters, and you wish to ride again before you find some genuine Honda needles, drop the needles 2 notches in the slide (move the clip toward the blunt end 2 notches) and set the idle screws at about 7/8 to 15/16  of a turn. The CB750 carbs go leaner as the screw is turned in, richer as it comes out. This will leave you with a pronounced flat spot at about 65 MPH, but will at least keep you from running out of sparkplugs.

I have used common 1/2" wide hose claps on hard carb boots for many years, with good results. They are not as pretty, but do a good job of removing vacuum leaks. The wintergreen and xylol treatment I have been doing to (over a dozen of) them now works perfectly, making them like new! But, the old clamps do stretch. You can sometimes add some grip to them by installing a small washer on the screw (might have to nip off the sides of the washer to make it oval-ish to fit): I have done this many times, too.  ;)

Aaarrrggghhhhhh. Hondaman, how I wished you were right about the needles, but no, all four are marked 27201. But hey, I'm getting better are carb rack removal; 22 minutes this time.

So just a little more data. The slides themselves are marked (stylized K) 25 and also 102 on the bottom of the slide where the needle protrudes. The 105 main jets I first installed after rebuild are marked with the same stylized K just before the 105 mark on the sides of the jet. The three 95s that came with the bike are marked on the top of the jet with RO  along with the 95. There's lots of "wiggle room" with the needle in the needle jet when the slide is near fully up, less when half down, and just barely moves in the needle jet when the slide is open just enough to get to the needle to test. I checked the float heights again, all the same, 26mm when measured from higher point on the side of the upper bowl with the tang just kissing the shaft of the needle, and 25mm when measured from the lower slot in the side of the upper carb bowl. The slow jets are tight, the main jet holder is tight.  When synced, the readings were in the 22, 23 range on Carbtune device.

Once again, needle clip is in second position from bottom. The plugs I was running before the carb clean with 95 jets were NKG D7EA and did not foul nearly as much as the Denso X24ES-U with either the 105 or 95 jets. And all things being equal, why would No. 3 plug look normal when the rest were badly carbon fouled?

Clearly need help, what next? 
Current Rides:
1975 cb550K
1975 cb750K
1967 Bridgestone 350GTR

Past Rides:
1988 400 Hawk
195? Schwinn Whizzer

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Carbs Back On, Not Happy
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2010, 06:41:22 PM »
You have one carb that works well and three do not.  Isn't it time to start measuring things to find out what is different between the working and pitiful carbs?
You have the secret to success in the working carb.  How are the others different?  The answer is going to be in some overlooked detail.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Popwood

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 914
Re: Carbs Back On, Not Happy
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2010, 07:33:46 PM »
Thanks TT, or should I say, with all due respect, "Spock." What you recommend is so logical.

I will pursue your suggestion but let me also pose a question. Is there any likelihood my problem is related to strength of ignition spark? Is one path to solution looking at points and timing? Point gaps are set to minimum (.012 on range of .012 to .016) trying to compensate for lack of timing adjustment. No. 2, 3 behind timing mark about 1/8" while 1. 4 right on mark. OK, No. 3 plug is the one that looks good so maybe not.  Does closing down point gap create less powerful spark at the plug?

One other question I have. Does the air mixture screw only affect mixture at low, idle speeds or does it affect mixture all through the trottel range?

Thanks TT.
Current Rides:
1975 cb550K
1975 cb750K
1967 Bridgestone 350GTR

Past Rides:
1988 400 Hawk
195? Schwinn Whizzer

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,819
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Carbs Back On, Not Happy
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2010, 08:01:18 PM »
I'm sorry to say, this sounds like Keyster needles in the slides. This is precisely their symptom, because they taper too much, which lets the engine run very rich in the 1/4 to 1/2 throttle range. They are also often a little too long, and too thin. This makes them run very rich above 1/2 throttle, so the engine drowns in 10:1 rich mixtures when the slides are pulled wide open: you would need 25% more airflow and 60,000 volt coils to fire that (think turbo, CDI, Mallory coils...).

Pop: first thing to try - remove the carbs, pull out a needle, verify if the number on it is "27201" or "2701" (with possibly an "A" or "B" behind it). The former is Honda's, the latter is Keyster's. If Keysters, and you wish to ride again before you find some genuine Honda needles, drop the needles 2 notches in the slide (move the clip toward the blunt end 2 notches) and set the idle screws at about 7/8 to 15/16  of a turn. The CB750 carbs go leaner as the screw is turned in, richer as it comes out. This will leave you with a pronounced flat spot at about 65 MPH, but will at least keep you from running out of sparkplugs.

I have used common 1/2" wide hose claps on hard carb boots for many years, with good results. They are not as pretty, but do a good job of removing vacuum leaks. The wintergreen and xylol treatment I have been doing to (over a dozen of) them now works perfectly, making them like new! But, the old clamps do stretch. You can sometimes add some grip to them by installing a small washer on the screw (might have to nip off the sides of the washer to make it oval-ish to fit): I have done this many times, too.  ;)

Aaarrrggghhhhhh. Hondaman, how I wished you were right about the needles, but no, all four are marked 27201. But hey, I'm getting better are carb rack removal; 22 minutes this time.

So just a little more data. The slides themselves are marked (stylized K) 25 and also 102 on the bottom of the slide where the needle protrudes. The 105 main jets I first installed after rebuild are marked with the same stylized K just before the 105 mark on the sides of the jet. The three 95s that came with the bike are marked on the top of the jet with RO  along with the 95. There's lots of "wiggle room" with the needle in the needle jet when the slide is near fully up, less when half down, and just barely moves in the needle jet when the slide is open just enough to get to the needle to test. I checked the float heights again, all the same, 26mm when measured from higher point on the side of the upper bowl with the tang just kissing the shaft of the needle, and 25mm when measured from the lower slot in the side of the upper carb bowl. The slow jets are tight, the main jet holder is tight.  When synced, the readings were in the 22, 23 range on Carbtune device.

Once again, needle clip is in second position from bottom. The plugs I was running before the carb clean with 95 jets were NKG D7EA and did not foul nearly as much as the Denso X24ES-U with either the 105 or 95 jets. And all things being equal, why would No. 3 plug look normal when the rest were badly carbon fouled?

Clearly need help, what next? 

If I might ask a seemingly unrelated question:
What is the compression of all 4 cylinders? A tight intake valve on #1 will make #3 show up rich, interestingly enough, while #1 will show leaner by comparison (and, this is the same all through the firing order, BTW).

I'm sure of one thing: #3 will run darker with the retarded timing you mention. #2 will eventually also show darker, but #3 does it first from late spark. It sounds like you might have some bad (geomertically speaking) points, or points plate (can it move around more than 0.004" between the "posts" when the 3 screws are loosened? That's too much.).

But, late spark usually takes about 50 miles or more to foul plugs.

Vacuum leaks at the carb side of the hoses will make the carbs run in the richer idle range, all the way up to 1/2 throttle or even more. This is because on the carb where the leak is, the air is moving slower than it should be under the slide, since some of it is coming in downstream of the carb. These carbs run about 12:1 mix at idle, which becomes about 14:1 at 1/4 throttle when the cutaway on the carb slide becomes active: if the vacuum leak is, say, 10% of the airflow, then the idle circuit is still working in the affected carb until almost 1/3 throttle. When this happens, the other carbs start leaning out like they should, but the leaky-hosed ones are still running "slow" and richer. Anything richer than 14:1 will darken plugs quick: the only reason it doesn't happen so fast at idle is because very little air is actually entering the engine, and the burn time is very long.

Vacuum leaks on the head side of the hoses will usually cause erratic idle or cold-blodded tendencies. Here, they don't affect the color of the plugs so much. They just make the engines run unevenly, and generate "flat spots", one of the hallmarks of the Mid Fours and the Baby Fours (they have O-rings here which often leak).

The float levels sound OK: they run well all the way up to 24mm (my "racing" setting), if leaky there a little around the bowl seals on the sidestand.

I'm placing my bet on these things, since it sounds like the needles are right, and if I were there, would do them in this order:
1. If the condensors are more than 3 years old, change them. They leak after a while and sap spark.
2. Clean and polish (especially those #2) points, regap and retime to get everything spot-on at 0.014" gap and "F" marks at idle speeds under a timing light. Make sure the spark advancer goes to full advance by 2500 RPM for both sides.
3. Ohms-check the sparkplug caps. If they are more than 500 ohms different between the caps on one pair (i.e., the 1-4 pair or the 2-3 pair), or if the resistance on that model is more than 7.5k (7500) ohms, replace them, and in pairs. Use 5k ohm NGK caps. Make sure they screw tightly into the spark wire: if not, cut off a little bit of the wire(s) (like someone said above) and screw them in tighter.

The above is essentially an electrical tune-up to make sure your spark is right. It's real hard to measure it directly...

4. Get 1/2" wide hose clamps and install them on both ends of the carb hoses, tightly. If this fixes the hoses, they may need more wintergreen, or maybe just replacement. I recently saw 2 cracked ones on a local 750 at a shop: both those cylinders were fouling plugs (per my explanation above). They were cracked through to the inside. almost the length of the bottom of the hoses.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Popwood

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 914
Re: Carbs Back On, Not Happy
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2010, 08:18:31 PM »
Hondaman, what can I say but THANK YOU again. I'll be going through all this as well as TTs suggestions. I think I might just invest in a new timing plate as I've had to fuss with the current one trying to get it to time right. By that, I mean I've elongated the slot on the lower left round plate to gain more adjustment. These plates are pretty cheap at less than $20 and I have a fresh set of points/condensers on the shelf. Will also check the caps as you suggest.

What would you do? Put the 105 mains back in and install the carbs, then do the timing, tappet clearance, cam chain, etc? I'd really prefer not to have to pull the carbs off yet again if at all possible. Sure, it's a crap shoot, but what's the best play?
Current Rides:
1975 cb550K
1975 cb750K
1967 Bridgestone 350GTR

Past Rides:
1988 400 Hawk
195? Schwinn Whizzer

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Carbs Back On, Not Happy
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2010, 09:52:43 PM »
The CB750 carbs go leaner as the screw is turned in, richer as it comes out.
Are these not air bleed screws, which regulate air from the air jet?  If so, they work opposite as you describe.
I don't have any of these early 750 carbs to examine.  How is it the air bleeds can work backwards on these carbs, compared to others with the air bleed screws?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Popwood

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 914
Re: Carbs Back On, Not Happy
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2010, 07:31:23 PM »
The CB750 carbs go leaner as the screw is turned in, richer as it comes out.
Are these not air bleed screws, which regulate air from the air jet?  If so, they work opposite as you describe.
I don't have any of these early 750 carbs to examine.  How is it the air bleeds can work backwards on these carbs, compared to others with the air bleed screws?

Cheers,

I've wondered this as well, TT. I make no claim to expertise, but the conical shape of the business end of the screw that seats in the same, but female, conical shape, would seem to allow more air to flow as the screw is turned out, thereby leaning the mixture. There is a longitudinal hole through the length of conical shape that meets a hole through the section at the top of the cone. I'd assume this allows some minimal air flow regardless of how far in the screw is set, even closed.
Current Rides:
1975 cb550K
1975 cb750K
1967 Bridgestone 350GTR

Past Rides:
1988 400 Hawk
195? Schwinn Whizzer

Offline Popwood

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 914
Re: Carbs Back On, Not Happy
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2010, 07:50:16 PM »
I'm sorry to say, this sounds like Keyster needles in the slides. This is precisely their symptom, because they taper too much, which lets the engine run very rich in the 1/4 to 1/2 throttle range. They are also often a little too long, and too thin. This makes them run very rich above 1/2 throttle, so the engine drowns in 10:1 rich mixtures when the slides are pulled wide open: you would need 25% more airflow and 60,000 volt coils to fire that (think turbo, CDI, Mallory coils...).

Pop: first thing to try - remove the carbs, pull out a needle, verify if the number on it is "27201" or "2701" (with possibly an "A" or "B" behind it). The former is Honda's, the latter is Keyster's. If Keysters, and you wish to ride again before you find some genuine Honda needles, drop the needles 2 notches in the slide (move the clip toward the blunt end 2 notches) and set the idle screws at about 7/8 to 15/16  of a turn. The CB750 carbs go leaner as the screw is turned in, richer as it comes out. This will leave you with a pronounced flat spot at about 65 MPH, but will at least keep you from running out of sparkplugs.

I have used common 1/2" wide hose claps on hard carb boots for many years, with good results. They are not as pretty, but do a good job of removing vacuum leaks. The wintergreen and xylol treatment I have been doing to (over a dozen of) them now works perfectly, making them like new! But, the old clamps do stretch. You can sometimes add some grip to them by installing a small washer on the screw (might have to nip off the sides of the washer to make it oval-ish to fit): I have done this many times, too.  ;)

Aaarrrggghhhhhh. Hondaman, how I wished you were right about the needles, but no, all four are marked 27201. But hey, I'm getting better are carb rack removal; 22 minutes this time.

So just a little more data. The slides themselves are marked (stylized K) 25 and also 102 on the bottom of the slide where the needle protrudes. The 105 main jets I first installed after rebuild are marked with the same stylized K just before the 105 mark on the sides of the jet. The three 95s that came with the bike are marked on the top of the jet with RO  along with the 95. There's lots of "wiggle room" with the needle in the needle jet when the slide is near fully up, less when half down, and just barely moves in the needle jet when the slide is open just enough to get to the needle to test. I checked the float heights again, all the same, 26mm when measured from higher point on the side of the upper bowl with the tang just kissing the shaft of the needle, and 25mm when measured from the lower slot in the side of the upper carb bowl. The slow jets are tight, the main jet holder is tight.  When synced, the readings were in the 22, 23 range on Carbtune device.

Once again, needle clip is in second position from bottom. The plugs I was running before the carb clean with 95 jets were NKG D7EA and did not foul nearly as much as the Denso X24ES-U with either the 105 or 95 jets. And all things being equal, why would No. 3 plug look normal when the rest were badly carbon fouled?

Clearly need help, what next? 

If I might ask a seemingly unrelated question:
What is the compression of all 4 cylinders? A tight intake valve on #1 will make #3 show up rich, interestingly enough, while #1 will show leaner by comparison (and, this is the same all through the firing order, BTW).

I'm sure of one thing: #3 will run darker with the retarded timing you mention. #2 will eventually also show darker, but #3 does it first from late spark. It sounds like you might have some bad (geomertically speaking) points, or points plate (can it move around more than 0.004" between the "posts" when the 3 screws are loosened? That's too much.).

But, late spark usually takes about 50 miles or more to foul plugs.

Vacuum leaks at the carb side of the hoses will make the carbs run in the richer idle range, all the way up to 1/2 throttle or even more. This is because on the carb where the leak is, the air is moving slower than it should be under the slide, since some of it is coming in downstream of the carb. These carbs run about 12:1 mix at idle, which becomes about 14:1 at 1/4 throttle when the cutaway on the carb slide becomes active: if the vacuum leak is, say, 10% of the airflow, then the idle circuit is still working in the affected carb until almost 1/3 throttle. When this happens, the other carbs start leaning out like they should, but the leaky-hosed ones are still running "slow" and richer. Anything richer than 14:1 will darken plugs quick: the only reason it doesn't happen so fast at idle is because very little air is actually entering the engine, and the burn time is very long.

Vacuum leaks on the head side of the hoses will usually cause erratic idle or cold-blodded tendencies. Here, they don't affect the color of the plugs so much. They just make the engines run unevenly, and generate "flat spots", one of the hallmarks of the Mid Fours and the Baby Fours (they have O-rings here which often leak).

The float levels sound OK: they run well all the way up to 24mm (my "racing" setting), if leaky there a little around the bowl seals on the sidestand.

I'm placing my bet on these things, since it sounds like the needles are right, and if I were there, would do them in this order:
1. If the condensors are more than 3 years old, change them. They leak after a while and sap spark.
2. Clean and polish (especially those #2) points, regap and retime to get everything spot-on at 0.014" gap and "F" marks at idle speeds under a timing light. Make sure the spark advancer goes to full advance by 2500 RPM for both sides.
3. Ohms-check the sparkplug caps. If they are more than 500 ohms different between the caps on one pair (i.e., the 1-4 pair or the 2-3 pair), or if the resistance on that model is more than 7.5k (7500) ohms, replace them, and in pairs. Use 5k ohm NGK caps. Make sure they screw tightly into the spark wire: if not, cut off a little bit of the wire(s) (like someone said above) and screw them in tighter.

The above is essentially an electrical tune-up to make sure your spark is right. It's real hard to measure it directly...

4. Get 1/2" wide hose clamps and install them on both ends of the carb hoses, tightly. If this fixes the hoses, they may need more wintergreen, or maybe just replacement. I recently saw 2 cracked ones on a local 750 at a shop: both those cylinders were fouling plugs (per my explanation above). They were cracked through to the inside. almost the length of the bottom of the hoses.

Thanks, Hondaman. My son has the compression tester so I can't check right now but will. The points plate will not shift around more than .004. The points were fresh last fall, bought from Western Hills Honda here in Cincinnati. I'd like to think they are good, but as I said, the plate ran out of adjustment so I elongated the slot to gain some clockwise adjustment.

At this stage, I'm going to go back to the start. Will totally go over each carb again and try to identify any differences between the one that's good and the other three. Will also redo valve adjust, cam chain, reset points to .014, retime and re-synch carbs.

All the plug caps are the same, NKG 5ohm. I'll check to make sure the wires are tight. Will change out the carb boot clamps but I really don't think that's a culprit, but I do want to eliminate as many possibilities as possible.

Heading out for a week vacation Saturday, lakeside contemplating my navel. I think I might take the carbs along with some tools and cleaner just to go through it all again. It will be good. I don't do well sitting still for more than 30 minutes.
Current Rides:
1975 cb550K
1975 cb750K
1967 Bridgestone 350GTR

Past Rides:
1988 400 Hawk
195? Schwinn Whizzer