Topic: Wayne Gardner - keep your comments to yourself!!

[lordmoonpie]

Clearly Mr Gardner is not able to stay in the media spotlight these days. It must be hard having won a world championship what, nearly 30 years ago to keep the momentum going and still be able to feed your ego. So what does he do? Slags off the Isle of Man TT and claims its too dangerous because two people died this year. Well Mr Gardner, these are the facts...

1. Every rider who graces the TT or the Manx GP does it out of personal choice, NOT to get some "easy" (?!) prize money to keep the wolf from the door.
2. Every rider faces the fact that this is a dangerous sport and no-one rides in the isle of man and later claims they are surprised there are dangers inherent in 200+ racing miles on real roads. To suggest otherwise is insulting to the intelligence of these riders.
3. Short circuit riders are not by default better than road racers, forcing the poor road racer into his lot just to pay the bills because road racers are rubbish on short circuits. The list of names that will dis-prove that theory is huge but does include some lesser know riders like Messers Agostini, Hailwood, Read and Fogarty. They did OK on short circuits as well I seem to recall.
4. The fans don't go there to watch death and destruction, they go to watch the greatest motorcycle race in the world, competed in by some of the bravest riders in the world.
5. If you count up the racing miles covered since 1907 and the number of competitors, the 229 deaths in 103 years probably makes it safer than a lot of sports considered by the ill informed, to be safer then motorcycle racing.
6. Just because you won a GP title doesn't give you the right to comment, let alone lambast something you have never done. When you've been there and raced the TT, then and ONLY THEN have you earned the right to make the comments you have. Go earn your stripes and then your views will have a bit of credibility.

Assuming you won't demonstrate the courage of your convictions by earning that right, keep your extreme opinions to yourself, they help no-one and damage a spectacle that is unique and loved by millions.  As the old Manx proverb allegedly goes - "There's no fool like an old fool..."

[simon#42]

must disagree with this im afraid , wayne gardner is a top bloke and is entitled to his opinion the same as everyone else . for the record i also think the place is far to dangerous ,  your first point is not strictly true. there are quite a few riders that only do the TT to keep their short circuit ride , one sponsor i had supplied me with a 750 ,500 and 350 but part of the deal was i had to race at the island . as for your second point riders like conor cummins, Michael  rutter and steve plater use there TT prize money to subsidise there BSB season [ i used these names as i know them ] . on to point three ,foggy is one of the only riders that has moved on from the TT to better things [ in the modern era] , the others you mentioned only raced there initially because they had to [ ago hated the place ] and read and hailwood only went back because they where at the end of there careers and they knew they would be competitive . i will let you have point 4 but point 5 ignores the hundreds and hundreds of very serious injuries , believe me road racing is dangerous and its not an extreme opinion to say so 

[KeithTurk]

One of my friends is a Racer there... and a fairly good one.... ( I pray he makes it out of there alive every year... and counted the collar bone fracture a couple of years ago as a blessing )

I am the co/owner of a racing organization that has suffered 2 fatalities...

And my wife and I both are fairly hard core Land speed racers...

Bottom line... I know and understand the risks I take.... and the cost to those around me if all isn't just "right"  I chose to race and often speak to others about the risks involved....  

For Wayne Raney to say the place is dangerous or " Too " Dangerous to race at is his choice and a right statement for him....  it might even be a right statement for the race itself...  so I won't fault him for his comments....

After that.... each rider is warned and takes the risk because ..... in risk,   there is Life....  and without it... there is only Average men doing average things...

[lordmoonpie]

must disagree with this im afraid , wayne gardner is a top bloke and is entitled to his opinion the same as everyone else . for the record i also think the place is far to dangerous ,  your first point is not strictly true. there are quite a few riders that only do the TT to keep their short circuit ride , one sponsor i had supplied me with a 750 ,500 and 350 but part of the deal was i had to race at the island . as for your second point riders like conor cummins, Michael  rutter and steve plater use there TT prize money to subsidise there BSB season [ i used these names as i know them ] . on to point three ,foggy is one of the only riders that has moved on from the TT to better things [ in the modern era] , the others you mentioned only raced there initially because they had to [ ago hated the place ] and read and hailwood only went back because they where at the end of there careers and they knew they would be competitive . i will let you have point 4 but point 5 ignores the hundreds and hundreds of very serious injuries , believe me road racing is dangerous and its not an extreme opinion to say so 

I agree Simon - Wayne is entitled to his opinion, BUT, when someone in his position, a celebrity for arguments sake says something which at the end of the day is only his opinion, there are many many people who will take this and use it to leverage all kinds of negative things disproportionate to the comment simply because he is who he is. "Ex-world champion says TT must stop" incorrectly generates more weight to the opinion because of who he is. I can't possibly agree with your comments about the riders have to do it to keep their short circuit rides. No-one HAS to do it, they have choice, they can say no and if they seriously feel that strongly about it they will. It's their choice and theirs alone to go there - no-one else is driving their bus! Oh and I'm not without skin in the game either. I've lost best mates to the TT and Billown courses - funerals in TT week are no fun, I've been to too many, but the riders know the risks and enjoy the festival despite (and in some cases like Guy Martin, because of) the risks.

On the riders, there are lots of good riders who do well in both short circuits and roads as you well know, my examples may be dated but there are plenty more, Whitham for example. Hailwood didn't have to go back to the TT but he did and won and the list is a long one.

Bike racing is dangerous yes, every racer accepts that or they walk away. Three times as many people die in horse events each year in the UK than in motorbike sport.

Wayne Gardner is where he is because of his sport. He should exercise a duty of care for all aspects of the sport that gave him his fame and fortune and to be an ambassador for your chosen field means tempering the magnitude of your statements. His was an irresponsible rant given his standing in the sport and that's definitely my opinion! 

[simon#42]

simon if you ever find an australian that ' temper's the magnitude of his statement '  please let me know !

[lordmoonpie]

simon if you ever find an australian that ' temper's the magnitude of his statement '  please let me know !

   

You got me there Simon...

[petercb750]

From an Aussie perspective - WG has been known as a whinger and prima donna (not to be confused with his ex-wife, haha) for a long time, and I'll think you'll find many of us lot don't have a lot of respect for what he says.
It's a shame, cos he was my hero back in the 80s, and I still wear a WG replica Shoei, but I too have tired of his sooking and whinging. He was particulalry bad during his short V8 racing career here, and was better known as "crash craddick" and "not my fault".
His comments on the IoM are just that - HIS comments - and he's entitled to them, but don't kid yourselves into thinking that many people over here, at least, are taking any notice.
Peter.

[Vampire]

simon if you ever find an australian that ' temper's the magnitude of his statement '  please let me know !

I say old chap, that's a bit intemperate !!!
I suspect that your offering of this opinion is simply a reflection of media sensationalist reporting: journalists are seldom interested in reporting moderate, considered opinions.
I'm not a fan of Gardner as a person, though I have greatly admired his courage on the race track. I recall one GP in Japan where he fell off in the rain, not once but three times (I think), yet got back up each time and continued on. If one reviews his racing history, it is a story of courage and determination triumphing over adversity and moderate skill.
That said, he has always given me the impression that he thought he didn't obtain the results he deserved, and this may be true. I recall another GP where the racing between the top four was intense until the last two laps when Gardner managed to pull a gap only to have his bike fail (a chain I think). Such were the frustrations of unreliable machinery.

[Retro Rocket]

I agree Simon - Wayne is entitled to his opinion, BUT, when someone in his position, a celebrity for arguments sake says something which at the end of the day is only his opinion, there are many many people who will take this and use it to leverage all kinds of negative things disproportionate to the comment simply because he is who he is. "Ex-world champion says TT must stop" incorrectly generates more weight to the opinion because of who he is.

Sorry LMP , It may only be his opinion but it is a highly qualified one and i would suspect,not taken lightly.  Its funny how experts are so easily ignored , who then would you qualify to comment....Joey Dunlop....

Wayne Gardner is where he is because of his sport. He should exercise a duty of care for all aspects of the sport that gave him his fame and fortune and to be an ambassador for your chosen field means tempering the magnitude of your statements. His was an irresponsible rant given his standing in the sport and that's definitely my opinion!

Really, you don't think its a duty of care when so many are killed on this exciting but very dangerous track?

Petercb, you read too many newspapers, i have been fortunate enough to meet Wayne Gardner on more than one occasion and there is a fair amount of bull#$%* in what you say here and you are only saying what you read and we all know how truthful the media is   , yes he is opinionated but the "prima donna" and "whinger" comments are just media spin and clearly they don't personally know the man and neither do you. He is all business and a very focused person and clearly doesn't like it when things don't go his way, he has also done a huge amount for the sport in general and has helped a lot of up and coming riders from Australia make it in road racing both here and over seas. I think he is highly qualified to make these comments and he is not the only racer, current or not to say this. People listen because of his experience and if you think he is gutless in this comment you obviously never watched him race, he was one of the hardest working and competitive  riders in motorcycle racing ever and brilliant to watch. Makes him plenty qualified to more than just me...

Mick

[petercb750]

Hey Mick - I too have met him (a long time ago - '89 at PI), and as I said, he was my hero, and I still marvel at his skills and courage on the track. And I will never question that or speak otherwise. Remember the Swann series? Some of those power slides were equal to any of today's champs - he was (and still IS) awesome.
I never used the word "gutless" - that, he is NOT. And I don't see his comments as "gutless" - not sure why you chose to see it that way.
I do not dislike the man at all, but sometimes I think he does himself no favours when talking to the media, and is perceived by many as a whinger. This particulalry arose during his V8 racing.
I fully agree about his commitment to young riders and the sport in general, and he is still ferociously competitive in classic racing (and winning). And a good business man. Good on him.
Anyway, my comments were not directed at his skills or daring, they are directed at some of his media performances over the years. And I'm not talking what is "reported" - I'm talking about interviews, columns of his own words etc, as is the case here with his IoM sledging. And mate, I don't read too many newspapers, trust me I hate them. I am not that niaive to believe all the crap dished up by them.
Yes, he is extremely qualified to make his comments and statements, but maybe the sport doesn't need negativity thrown at it like that. I think that is the point moonpie was trying to make.
Cheers.

[Retro Rocket]

Hi Peter, some of what i said was for LMP as well and "gutless " was probably the wrong word. Calling him irresponsible was what got me going. There are on average 2.29 deaths every time this event is held making it one of, if not the most dangerous motorcycle event in history, that would have to give anyone who wanted to complain plenty of credibility wouldn't you think? I think if you take a look at Gardner's media comments, one thing i got from them is that he doesn't like the media much and they run with  that in their coverage of him.  I have seen plenty of bike racers try and do the change to Cars and have seen most fail , i think Greg Hansford was probably the exception to the rule. I used to have the "Gardner" poster at Surfers paradise raceway coming out from under the dunlop bridge completely sideways with smoke coming off both tyre's at around 180MPH....    Remember that one?

Mick

[petercb750]

Yes, Mick - I had that pic on my wall too!! (wonder where it went?). They were awesome days. I have it on old VHS video somewhere too, never forgotten it.
And who can forget the 89 and 90 GPs at PI - I was there screaming my lungs out! 
I would never question his credibility (re bike matters) as such, he has earnt it - and maybe you're right about the media giving his comments their spin - but to suggest that the IoM is too dangerous and should be stopped is a bit over the top. I hope that event is NEVER taken from the calendar (I want to get there soon!). The guys that go there to race (and I've known a few) do so at their own peril, and know that, and don't need to be told how dangerous it is. We have enough trouble with politicians wanting to ban this and that, legislate against motorcycling, negative press, labelling etc without one of our "own" casting negativity so publicly. I don't think he'll win many friends over this one, particulalry in the UK where he is particulalry "famous".
But, he is free to say what he likes, as we all are, but that doesn't mean he has to be agreed with. I still respect him for what he achieved and continues to achieve.

(Actually, I think he did most damage to himself during the V8 years - you'd have to admit he was a bit gung ho and a crasher, and tended to blame everyone else and whinge a lot. Amongst his peers, he was not the most popular driver out there).

[Retro Rocket]

Its funny Peter, i would love to be able to see the IOMTT although i still think it is a very dangerous race, but i suppose when you look at it so is climbing mount Everest, parachuting and many other sports. I think the biggest perceived problem is with 2-300KMH speeds and brick walls and trees, definitely a very unique race. I spent time in the pits with Scott and Mick Doohan at Oran Park and also met Freddie Merkel on his RC30, very cool guy....

Mick

[petercb750]

Yep, whenever I see footage of IoM my main comment is ......farrrrrrrrk. Just gotta get there one day - before I'm too old 
The Irish road race series is the same - mad! Gonadus extremus!!

Sounds like you've had some interesting times mixing it with the best - would be good to meet up one day and talk about "the good old days". Have also met a lot of those guys, and even had a beer with Doohan at PI back in '90. Great memories to hang onto.

[Retro Rocket]

Yeah, i had a few mates that raced "A" grade and every now and again at a Swann insurance series or the old 6 hour races i would end up in the pits helping out and rub shoulders with some mighty fine road racers.
Ahhh...the good old days.....

Mick

[traveler]

I wouldn't do the TT

[petercb750]

Yeah, i had a few mates that raced "A" grade and every now and again at a Swann insurance series or the old 6 hour races i would end up in the pits helping out and rub shoulders with some mighty fine road racers.
Ahhh...the good old days.....

Mick

When I was racing back in the 70s I mixed with a heap of blokes that became legends.........sadly I wasn't one of them (other than in my own lunchbox...haha )

Anyway, way off topic.......

[lordmoonpie]

Hi Peter, some of what i said was for LMP as well and "gutless " was probably the wrong word. Calling him irresponsible was what got me going. There are on average 2.29 deaths every time this event is held making it one of, if not the most dangerous motorcycle event in history, that would have to give anyone who wanted to complain plenty of credibility wouldn't you think?

Mick - this is exactly my point. Gardner has NEVER raced at the TT and when you haven't done something you are not qualified to comment othe than by proxy. I sing in the shower but it doesn't make me qualified to slag off a live band until I've been up on stage and experienced the *whole* thing first hand in context, not as an observer. Then you get to understand the full experience. And that's it isn't it - Gardners comments are completely out of context, he's a short circuit rider not a road racer.

As for 2.29 deaths per event, your maths is close enough but again out of context. Let's say an average TT festival covers 30 laps of racing - that's 1137 racing miles. Most TT starts have 60 competitors, some years the grid can reach 100 - let's take the average and say 80. So in each year 2.29 people are killed in 90,960 miles of racing. Compare that to short circuits and other motorsports and you'll see it really isn't as bad as people make out.

For those of you who have never been, never ridden the course, you won't understand and I wholeheartedly urge you to make the trip someday and gain that understanding, you will never regret it. The IOM IS special. The gradient changes, complexity of learning 200+ corners where an error at one isn't shown until you find yourself offline at the next, the stunning setting, all make for a magical place that once you have ridden there you will want to keep coming back time and again. If you race, there'll always be a part, however tiny, of you that will want to race there. The place draws you in and grabs your very soul - maybe that's all down to the Little Folk

[ieism]

Well I don't know &*^% about Wayne G. That was so long ago that I wasn't even born, and personally I think old racers making comments on today's racing are always a bit sad. Hearing Nicky Lauda voice his ridiculous opinions on F1 always makes me urinate my trousers slightly too.

Guy Martin (my all time favorite motorcycle racer) explained it pretty good in a recent interview: " If people made it safe, I wouldn't really want to do it. I race motorbikes because it's a bit dangerous"
This is from the guy who crashed so hard this TT, that most people thought Stephan Spielberg had directed it.

[Retro Rocket]

Mick - this is exactly my point. Gardner has NEVER raced at the TT and when you haven't done something you are not qualified to comment othe than by proxy. I sing in the shower but it doesn't make me qualified to slag off a live band until I've been up on stage and experienced the *whole* thing first hand in context, not as an observer. Then you get to understand the full experience. And that's it isn't it - Gardners comments are completely out of context, he's a short circuit rider not a road racer.

I don't think the example of singing in the shower example is correct because i am a musician and have seen bands on TV {just like the TT} and could tell straight away that they are another rubbish one hit wonder so i still think Gardner is well qualified to pass comment. Anyway guys i would never like to see this event close either, main reason being our whole life is being sanitised by our hopeless governments and i still take one out risks when i ride, without the thrill every now and again life would be pretty boring.
I have always been a firm advocate of the "go hard or go home" brigade....

Mick

[754]

 Sounds like IOM is a lot safer than the streets..
 I am sure there are always spectator deathes, ie riding to, from, during... just part of the game..
 Same deal at Sturgis..100,000 plus attending..just by sheer number there will be accident getting there and back...

 But I agree, he could have an informed opinion if he rode the track...

[KeithTurk]

You don't have to risk your life in a place to say it's to dangerous to race there.... and honestly it doesn't mean they should stop racing there.... it's just a risk management decision... 


Stoves are hot.... I'm not going to stick my hand on one..... or .... Geez they say these are Hot... here just to prove it I'll SHOW YOU....

Wayne Raney is an expert in his field and would be qualified as such in any court in this country... so he gave his opinion....  fair enough

[City Boy]

Hi gang.Interesting slant on the fatalities vis a vis miles raced LMP!I had never thought of it in those terms.I know I don"t have the cojones to race the Isle,but having attended the Manx via Mona's Maid,I hope to make the TT before I leave this orb and trust it never ceases to exist.The sheer # of entries and reverence for the event tells me it's longevity should be ensured.As a side note,anyone know if Nigel Mansell is still a member of the constabulary there?

[simon#42]

gardner didnt go any where near far enough . the TT is an archaic throw back to a time when racers where expected to race on crap dangerous tracks , and where told they where lucky to do so . 97% of the riders are amateurs who for two weeks of every year can pretend to be professional racers . the remaining 3% are the so called stars , mostly british superbike mid field runners who for two weeks can pretend to be good . the latter riders love the place as without it they would never be famous [ guy who? ]  i would love to see it stopped but i suppose if you really want to get ripped of by the ferry company to travel to a shabby island in the irish sea where you will have to pay premium prices for crap hotels , eat overprice food and watch second rate riders then who am i to stop you

[lordmoonpie]

It's just different Simon, you could argue that circuit racing is more about the person who can get the last ounce out of the machinery rather than use the last ounce of their riding skill and it's actually a totally different sport. For my money, road racing is miles more entertaining than short circuits where it's all about sponsorhip, big money and is clinical with it. Have you seriously enjoyed watching the last three MotoGPs with their processional races and handful of riders?

There are places I'm sure you know like Dundrod and Skerries that make the TT look like the safest place in the world, tiny narrow circuits with cow #$%* all over the place and yet there are still awesome riders out there doing amazing things, the difference is they do it because they love it not because it's worth $12M a year to them and that's why you don't get over paid media crafted pretty boys racing in the isle of man.

Real men race roads