Topic: Help! Custom LED Indicator Light Cluster Not Working (Update) I've Got Light

[Slams77]

I custom built an indicator light cluster (Oil, Neutral, L-Turn Signal, R-Turn Signal) using LED’s with built in resistors I purchased off ebay.  It works for the oil and neutral light, but the signal indicator lights do not flash when I switch them on, and the signal lights (also LED’s) come on very faint, but will not flash either.  If I plug the stock indicator cluster connectors back in or I piggy back the LED’s to the stock connectors, everything works.  Am I missing something?

[Bodi]

What bike, and is the wiring stock (otherwise)?

[Steve F]

The oil and neutral are wired with a positive 12v to the LED (+) side, and turn on when you ground the (-) negative side throught the oil or neutral switch, and I'm thinking that you wired the other lights the same (similarly) with a continuous positive feeding the LED's.  That's not correct.
The turn signals and the high beam LED's are to be grounded to the frame on the negative (-) sides, and the power to them is supplied by their respective circuits.
And in case you didn't know already, LED's are polarized, and reversed voltage doesn't work.
regards,
Steve F

[HondanutRider]

You mentioned that your signal lights are also LEDs.  That's your problem!  The turn signal circuit is very sensitive to load - that's what triggers the flasher on and off.  LED bulbs have very little load compared to the original filament bulbs.  You need to get a modern flasher unit that is all electronic, replacing the old-style originally found in these bikes, if you plan on using LED bulbs in the flasher itself.

[Slams77]

I’m using the stock harness on a CB400F.  I soldered both + wires together on the led’s for the oil and neutral lights and plugged them in the harness connector which on my bike is black, then I plugged the other two - wires in the harness connectors which on my bike would be light green w/red and blue w/red.  Both lights come on when I turn the key to the on position, and the oil light goes off once the bike is started and the neutral goes out once in gear.  I soldered both - wires together on the led’s for the turn signal indicators and plugged them in the ground connectors on the harness, and I plugged the other two + wires for the turn indicator lights in the harness connectors which on my bike would be the light blue and orange wires.  I did this pretty much the same as the original indicator cluster except that I have omitted the high beam indicator.  I am also using an electronic flasher relay.

[Queeg]

You mentioned that your signal lights are also LEDs.  That's your problem!  The turn signal circuit is very sensitive to load - that's what triggers the flasher on and off.  LED bulbs have very little load compared to the original filament bulbs.  You need to get a modern flasher unit that is all electronic, replacing the old-style originally found in these bikes, if you plan on using LED bulbs in the flasher itself.

i would totally disagree. where sometimes using leds for your turnsignal bulbs may cause a problem. its not always true. to flat out tell some one that's the problem with out a little more input is awfull.  i have everything on my bike led except the headlight. i use the same old crappy stock flasher. I'm also building a second bike with an all LED setup.  good store bought LED bulbs now shouldn't cause any problems to the functionality of the system. cheap bulbs maybe.  this is due to the fact of all the complaints from people using this type of bulb and not doing any research and having a problem.
 i do build all my own leds light setups for my trucks/motorcycles/boats and yes now for a sugar powered  rocket. (weee fun time).
   now back to your normally scheduled sanity!

I'm using the stock harness on a CB400F.  I soldered both + wires together on the led’s for the oil and neutral lights and plugged them in the harness connector which on my bike is black, then I plugged the other two - wires in the harness connectors which on my bike would be light green w/red and blue w/red.  Both lights come on when I turn the key to the on position, and the oil light goes off once the bike is started and the neutral goes out once in gear.  I soldered both - wires together on the led’s for the turn signal indicators and plugged them in the ground connectors on the harness, and I plugged the other two + wires for the turn indicator lights in the harness connectors which on my bike would be the light blue and orange wires.  I did this pretty much the same as the original indicator cluster except that I have omitted the high beam indicator.  I am also using an electronic flasher relay.

i suggest you test the LEDs before you solder them. saves time from if you have to reverse voltage, or change one out due to it just being bad.
when i build a tail light i test the individual bulb after solder then the series I'm building.
 

The oil and neutral are wired with a positive 12v to the LED (+) side, and turn on when you ground the (-) negative side throught the oil or neutral switch, and I'm thinking that you wired the other lights the same (similarly) with a continuous positive feeding the LED's.  That's not correct.
The turn signals and the high beam LED's are to be grounded to the frame on the negative (-) sides, and the power to them is supplied by their respective circuits.
Steve F

this is 100% correct. 
 take some time and check your work, and you wont have to go back AND FIX IT AS MUCH. i know i have been there.
 if you cant figure it out. we are here to help!

[Slams77]

Thanks for everyone’s feedback.  The turn signal indicator lights on my cluster come on, they just aren’t flashing and the turn signals flash but very faint, but if I piggy back my cluster to the stock cluster they work fine.  Might this be linked to a week battery?  Is there something I could run inline from the harness to the indicator lights to mimic a regular bulb?   

[vern401]

Most flashers require a certian amount of resistance. try a lower resistance flasher.

[Slams77]

I just tried the old relay, this time the turn signal indicator lights and the turn signals came on but would not blink.  

[CB750Ken8]

Is the flasher unit really an electronic relay or is it a semiconductor, I know while I was building my flasher unit it had it to the point where the turn signals would be on full brightness then dim to 50% then go full on again, I was trying to flash the LEDs via the positive when the semiconductor I was using would only work correctly if I was flashing with the negative (if any of that made any sense).

[Slams77]

The relay works fine with the LED turn signals and the stock filament bulb indicator light cluster; it’s when I connect the LED indicator cluster that I run into it not working correctly.  If I piggy back my LED cluster to the stock cluster the indicator lights and turn signals work as they are supposed to.  It almost seems as if I would need something to mimic a 12v filament bulb in line to make it work correctly.  The search goes on.

[HondanutRider]

I soldered both - wires together on the led’s for the turn signal indicators and plugged them in the ground connectors on the harness, and I plugged the other two + wires for the turn indicator lights in the harness connectors which on my bike would be the light blue and orange wires. 

I'm not certain if I follow exactly what you did here, but according to the wiring diagram for the 350F/400F the light blue and orange wires are the positive leads for each side of the turn signals - Right and Left sides respectively.  There is only one turn indicator bulb on the stock configuration and it is only tied to these two wires, not to any ground.  In that original configuration I would assume that when one side is flashing, the other side's positive lead will act as the ground connection for the indicator bulb.  That means that the polarity for a LED indicator would be flipping if there is only one LED used (or a pair in parallel).  Have you wired two LED's up for the indicator, basically keeping them interdependently wired for each side of the flasher, or have you got the two sides wired together as essentially one indicator bulb?

And, as has also been said by others, the flasher units can be very sensitive to loads and may act improper when the wattage changes (i.e. different amperage flows through them).

[Bodi]

Your electronic flasher needs just a bit more amperage than the "all led" system draws: clearly even the slight load of the original instrument lights is enough to make it work fine. Even electronic flashers need some minimum current draw to activate them.
You have to add 2 extra loads, one for each signal side. Since the indicator lamps seem to be enough, see what wattage they are and add a resistor to draw about the same power or you can experiment to see what the minimum is. It can go anywhere, from the signal wires to ground. Be aware that whatever power you draw will be going to heat, so the resistors should be rated for the power draw and somewhere they can shed heat without cooking something.

[Slams77]

Please forgive my lack of electronics knowledge, but I am definitely trying to understand and answer the questions as best as I can.  I wired the LED’s up similar the stock indicator light cluster (LED’s for oil and neutral + both soldered together and the two remaining – wires unsoldered to go into the harness connector, and LED’s for the L-turn and R-turn – are soldered together and the two remaining + wires unsoldered to go into the harness connector) but without the high beam.  I’m using an 11 to 15v, 15A electronic flasher that has a capacity of 6 lamps and it has worked fine up to this point.  Here’s a pic of the cluster.  The three wires to the left are for the turn signal indicators and the three to the right are the oil, and neutral.

[Bodi]

I think you have everything wired right. Since the system works fine when you add the old signal indicator lights, your problem is the low current draw from all LED lights. The electronic flasher needs lamp current to work: not as much as the original electromechanicel one but a bit of current.
Symptoms:
- LEDs are dim and don't flash with new flasher - something's wrong.
- LEDs are bright and don't flash with old flasher - proves wiring is OK, the correct LEDs light when you select left or right.
- LEDs are bright and flash when you add the old filament type indicator lamps - proves the flasher works and wiring is correct.
You just need to increase the current draw of the indicator lamps (front signal + rear signal + indicator). Your LEDs light very dim because of this sensing resistor current. The dim light shows that some current is flowing, but not enough to switch on the flasher circuitry and start the flashing - power is applied through a fairly high value resistor, but it ignores very low current that might come from just normal leakage through corrosion etc. The way this flasher works is that it always looks for current draw on the load wire. When it sees that, it switches on it's circuitry and uses power from the power and the ground wires to close the flasher contact for a set time. With the contact closed there's no voltage between power and load so it can't tell if there's a lamp there. When the flash time is up the relay contacts open and it once again looks for a current draw and repeats until there's no load... once you switch the signals off.
You must add some extra load to your signals.

[Queeg]

also remember leds have a narrow range of current to work properly.
if you have a low battery this will also cause problems.  if the Vf  is 3.1 v and your only putting 2.5 it will not light up or be very dim. they will still pass current. try testing it with a battery charger on it just to be on the safe side.!

[Alan F.]

also remember leds have a narrow range of current to work properly.
if you have a low battery this will also cause problems.  if the Vf  is 3.1 v and your only putting 2.5 it will not light up or be very dim. they will still pass current. try testing it with a battery charger on it just to be on the safe side.!

Exactly! As I was reading through this thread I'm thinking to myself I wonder if he's got enough juice? maybe give it a shot with the bike running at a few thousand rpm?

[Slams77]

Thanks again everyone.  I have some resistors that I tried and it looks like I’m headed in the right direction (I was able to get the indicator lights to flash by moving them around between the + and – wires) I’m just not sure how to put them in-line with the turn signals so they can work properly.  Any examples or suggestions will further assist with completing this trying but very educational task.

[Slams77]

Umm......forgot to mention that the battery isn't holding a charge well and that I have to charge it often to get the voltage up to run the tests on the cluster.  I will be investing in a new battery soon.

[Slams77]

O.K.  After numerous bouts with trying to get my indicator lights to flash when switched on, I have made some progress, I think.  I made sure the battery even though it appears to be going bad was at 11.9 volts which was enough to get the stock and custom indicator cluster lights going, and I used some 22 Ohm, ½ watt resistors to do the tests.

Test 1)   Ran resistor(s) in-line with the (+) wire on the turn signal indicator cluster.  Test failed

Test 2)   Bridged resistor(s) across the (-) and (+) wires on the turn signal indicator cluster.  Got flashing indicator lights

Test 3)   Spliced resistor(s) into (+) wire on turn signal indicator cluster, then connected one wire to its respective connector on the harness and one wire into a ground connector on the harness.  I also got flashing indicator lights.

Test two seems like the easiest way to get flashing indicator lights, but because of my lack of experience, I am just not sure it is correct.  I am also unclear as to how I get a 3.5w resistor on each L and R indicator to act as a regular filament bulb.  Can I purchase a resistor with 3.5w, or can I take a bunch of ½ watt resistors and bundle them together to get the total amount I need?  Can I use 18 or 22 Ohm resistors or will one work better than the other?

[CB750Ken8]

Yes you can 3.5watt resistors but they will obviously cost a little more, using a parallel cluster of .5 watt ones might not work if they are in a series string they could break easily and if they are in a parallel cluster then they could over heat and cause a fire.

[Steve F]

After reading most of this post, not all, I'm scratching my head about WHY you're messing around with resistors!  The problem lies in the flasher.  If you have a TRUE electronic flasher, you don't need anything else since these things have their own flasher circuit that essentially turns on and off a relay inside, which makes your lights flash.  They will have 3 (three) connections, positive (+) which gets connected to the incoming current supply in the circuit, the load connection which goes to the output side of the circuit which supplies the bulbs, and the green (-) ground wire.  These wires are easy to determine with the flasher disconnected from the wiring.  Turn on the bike and test all three of the wires for the presence of voltage.  If nothing, turn on either the left or right turn signal...it doesn't matter, and you should have voltage present at ONE of the wires.  This the INPUT connection to the flasher.  Attache the green wire (usually NOT used with the stocj flasher) to the NEGATIVE (-) connection.  The last wire, the LOAD is a no-brainer at this point.
Get yourself a REAL electronic flasher, and ditch the resistors. The ONLY reason you are getting the lights to blink with the resistors is that you're creating enough current to cause the cheapo flasher to operate....which is a CURRENT DEPENDANT flasher, NOT an electronic one.
Cheers,
Steve F

[Slams77]

After reading most of this post, not all, I'm scratching my head about WHY you're messing around with resistors!  The problem lies in the flasher.  If you have a TRUE electronic flasher, you don't need anything else since these things have their own flasher circuit that essentially turns on and off a relay inside, which makes your lights flash.  They will have 3 (three) connections, positive (+) which gets connected to the incoming current supply in the circuit, the load connection which goes to the output side of the circuit which supplies the bulbs, and the green (-) ground wire.  These wires are easy to determine with the flasher disconnected from the wiring.  Turn on the bike and test all three of the wires for the presence of voltage.  If nothing, turn on either the left or right turn signal...it doesn't matter, and you should have voltage present at ONE of the wires.  This the INPUT connection to the flasher.  Attache the green wire (usually NOT used with the stocj flasher) to the NEGATIVE (-) connection.  The last wire, the LOAD is a no-brainer at this point.
Get yourself a REAL electronic flasher, and ditch the resistors. The ONLY reason you are getting the lights to blink with the resistors is that you're creating enough current to cause the cheapo flasher to operate....which is a CURRENT DEPENDANT flasher, NOT an electronic one.
Cheers,
Steve F

I am now actually thinking of dishing out $20.00 for an electronic flasher relay that is also supposed to work for an all LED blinker system.  I initially thought that by placing resistor(s) directly in-line with each indicator lights wiring it would clear up the problem, but I am starting to see that it isn’t that simple.  I may still try a resistor closer to a 3.5w bulb to see how it holds up but I’m leaning towards the flasher unit at this point.  And although somewhat frustrating at times, it’s been rewarding knowing that I am putting my motorcycle together and that I am understanding it a lot more (and in some cases a little more) each time I work on it.  I am also amazed to see the abundance of knowledge and help other members have offered me trying to straighten this out.

[Steve F]

After reading most of this post, not all, I'm scratching my head about WHY you're messing around with resistors!  The problem lies in the flasher.  If you have a TRUE electronic flasher, you don't need anything else since these things have their own flasher circuit that essentially turns on and off a relay inside, which makes your lights flash.  They will have 3 (three) connections, positive (+) which gets connected to the incoming current supply in the circuit, the load connection which goes to the output side of the circuit which supplies the bulbs, and the green (-) ground wire.  These wires are easy to determine with the flasher disconnected from the wiring.  Turn on the bike and test all three of the wires for the presence of voltage.  If nothing, turn on either the left or right turn signal...it doesn't matter, and you should have voltage present at ONE of the wires.  This the INPUT connection to the flasher.  Attache the green wire (usually NOT used with the stocj flasher) to the NEGATIVE (-) connection.  The last wire, the LOAD is a no-brainer at this point.
Get yourself a REAL electronic flasher, and ditch the resistors. The ONLY reason you are getting the lights to blink with the resistors is that you're creating enough current to cause the cheapo flasher to operate....which is a CURRENT DEPENDANT flasher, NOT an electronic one.
Cheers,
Steve F

I am now actually thinking of dishing out $20.00 for an electronic flasher relay that is also supposed to work for an all LED blinker system.  I initially thought that by placing resistor(s) directly in-line with each indicator lights wiring it would clear up the problem, but I am starting to see that it isn’t that simple.  I may still try a resistor closer to a 3.5w bulb to see how it holds up but I’m leaning towards the flasher unit at this point.  And although somewhat frustrating at times, it’s been rewarding knowing that I am putting my motorcycle together and that I am understanding it a lot more (and in some cases a little more) each time I work on it.  I am also amazed to see the abundance of knowledge and help other members have offered me trying to straighten this out.

Two things to remember here: placing a resistor inline in a circuit reduces the voltage to the LED's and may cause them to not function at all.  Second, the main purpose for having LED's (at least as far as I'm concerned) is to reduce the total current required and the drain on the bike's electrical system.  LED's are great for this purpose.  Placing resistors in the system to simulate a bulb defeats this and essentially, you still have the same current draw that you would with incandescent bulbs. 
Steve F

[nokrome]

After reading most of this post, not all, I'm scratching my head about WHY you're messing around with resistors!  The problem lies in the flasher.  If you have a TRUE electronic flasher, you don't need anything else since these things have their own flasher circuit that essentially turns on and off a relay inside, which makes your lights flash.  They will have 3 (three) connections, positive (+) which gets connected to the incoming current supply in the circuit, the load connection which goes to the output side of the circuit which supplies the bulbs, and the green (-) ground wire.  These wires are easy to determine with the flasher disconnected from the wiring.  Turn on the bike and test all three of the wires for the presence of voltage.  If nothing, turn on either the left or right turn signal...it doesn't matter, and you should have voltage present at ONE of the wires.  This the INPUT connection to the flasher.  Attache the green wire (usually NOT used with the stocj flasher) to the NEGATIVE (-) connection.  The last wire, the LOAD is a no-brainer at this point.
Get yourself a REAL electronic flasher, and ditch the resistors. The ONLY reason you are getting the lights to blink with the resistors is that you're creating enough current to cause the cheapo flasher to operate....which is a CURRENT DEPENDANT flasher, NOT an electronic one.
Cheers,
Steve F

 can you recommend a "true electronic flasher" ?
   i am having the same problem and have tried at least 3 or 4 different "electronic flashers" but always get the same result, the signals will come on but they wont flash
  I'm getting tired of using hand signals