Author Topic: #4 carb blowing air out.  (Read 10790 times)

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Offline JohnPayne

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#4 carb blowing air out.
« on: July 12, 2010, 10:51:43 AM »
When I bought my bike the carb was off and I am trying to get everything running again. When I try to start the bike, the #4 carb is blowing air out, and when the bike somewhat starts, fuel starts to puff out of the intake section as well. Help me please.
1978 CB750F
1991 Harley Sportster XLH 883

Offline TwoTired

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2010, 11:21:07 AM »
Don't know what bike you have, but your description seems like an intake valve isn't fully closing.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline JohnPayne

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2010, 11:24:12 AM »
Yeah, sorry. 78 750F. The carbs have been sitting for a while, yesterday they were leaking fuel, but I read on here that some times fuel can make the gaskets expand, and it did. No more leaking, now it's just this issue.
1978 CB750F
1991 Harley Sportster XLH 883

Offline Old Scrambler

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2010, 11:32:44 AM »
I had a similar problem and found that a so-called shop mechanic had installed the camshaft a quarter turn wrong.......
Dennis in Wisconsin
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2010, 11:37:43 AM »
Should at least check valve tappet clearance.  If it persists, do a compression check.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline JohnPayne

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2010, 11:59:28 AM »
There is a pretty big gap on the valve tappet, maybe, 1/8in. How do I bring them down more?
1978 CB750F
1991 Harley Sportster XLH 883

Offline TwoTired

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2010, 12:25:22 PM »
You don't know how to adjust valves?  You have the shop manual?

A large gap either means badly out of adjustment or a valve stuck open.

If the adjustment was too tight it could mean the valve was being held open by the cam and the valve was leaking.

I think you need to do the compression test.  It's starting to sound like you have a bent or stuck intake valve.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline JohnPayne

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2010, 12:28:05 PM »
Yeah, I adjusted the throttle stop screw to drop them as much as possible, but it definitely stops dropping when they're about 1/8in to the body.
1978 CB750F
1991 Harley Sportster XLH 883

Offline Frankencake

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2010, 12:30:31 PM »
There is a pretty big gap on the valve tappet, maybe, 1/8in. How do I bring them down more?
Search the forum for valve adjustment.  Sounds like you should start there and adjust ALL of your valves.  Read carefully how to do them and do it as shown.  If that doesn't fix your problem, then you will probably need a new valve or two.  I had a '77 F come through the shop with a bent valve.  Someone decided that they didn't like the suggested redline and made up their own.  The valve floated off the cam and the piston clocked it good.  
"Sure, if you don't want that bike in your backyard, I guess I'll take it."  "I'll probably just scrap it......"

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Offline Frankencake

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2010, 12:32:35 PM »
Yeah, I adjusted the throttle stop screw to drop them as much as possible, but it definitely stops dropping when they're about 1/8in to the body.

DOH!  We're talking and the valves inside the engine that let air in to the combustion chamber and exhaust out; not on the carburetor. 
"Sure, if you don't want that bike in your backyard, I guess I'll take it."  "I'll probably just scrap it......"

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2010, 12:35:48 PM »
Yeah, I adjusted the throttle stop screw to drop them as much as possible, but it definitely stops dropping when they're about 1/8in to the body.

Oops.  You seem to be writing about the slides in the carburetors.  I'm talking about the engine intake valves in the cylinder head.

The compression stroke in the engine will push air out the intake duct through the carbs if the intake valve doesn't shut properly.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline JohnPayne

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2010, 01:14:49 PM »
Ermm, sorry. I am a two day old CB owner.
1978 CB750F
1991 Harley Sportster XLH 883

Offline JohnPayne

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2010, 01:29:03 PM »
Oohhh man......incoming pictures..
1978 CB750F
1991 Harley Sportster XLH 883

Offline JohnPayne

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2010, 01:38:50 PM »
1978 CB750F
1991 Harley Sportster XLH 883

Offline JohnPayne

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2010, 01:40:18 PM »
1978 CB750F
1991 Harley Sportster XLH 883

Offline JohnPayne

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2010, 01:41:32 PM »
Does this mean I need to take off the valve cover and going searching for this thing inside?  :o
1978 CB750F
1991 Harley Sportster XLH 883

Offline TwoTired

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2010, 01:46:20 PM »
Does this mean I need to take off the valve cover and going searching for this thing inside?  :o

If you can't find the missing parts nearby through that opening...I'm afraid so.
And, for the 750 you need to remove the engine in order to remove the valve cover.

This still doesn't explain why air is moving out of the carb inlet, though.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Frankencake

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2010, 03:00:41 PM »
Does this mean I need to take off the valve cover and going searching for this thing inside?  :o
Ye won't be ridin t'day sonny. ;D   I wonder if the previous owner (AKA: PO) took the tappet adjuster out?  your motor must sound like hell with that missing. :o
Here's what you should do:  You should pull the motor, remove the head, and rebuild the top end.  New valves, new valve guides and new valve seals.  You ight be able to get away with out valve guides. 
Here's what you can do:  Pull the motor, remove the head, replace just the bad valves. 
Here's what you probably will do:  Look for a junk CB750f and take the motor out of that.  (that way you get to pull a motor twice.  Fun, fun, fun!)  They are out there and up for grabs. 
"Sure, if you don't want that bike in your backyard, I guess I'll take it."  "I'll probably just scrap it......"

Frankencake:  Brotherhood of the unemployed?  What's our secret handshake?

333:  Think "Shakeweight".

Offline JohnPayne

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2010, 03:04:12 PM »
Hahh, I like my options! :) I'll probably go with the should do. I was looking for a fun project bike....So, this will be quite the project. Like you said, I won't be riding today. well, the motor will start, it doesn't sound to bad. However, the #4 carb is still spitting gas/air out the wrong way.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 03:26:36 PM by JohnPayne »
1978 CB750F
1991 Harley Sportster XLH 883

Offline JohnPayne

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2010, 03:24:21 PM »
Could the tappet adjuster have fallen into the cylinder head and is jamming the intake valve, hence, air/fuel going to opposite direction out of the carb?
1978 CB750F
1991 Harley Sportster XLH 883

Offline wrenchmuch

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2010, 03:38:52 PM »
Its unlikely that the adjuster and lock nut could jam the valve open . More likely that the PO went too far past red line , bent a valve and the increased tappet clearance shook the adjuster loose . Try probing around the hole with a magnet to see if you can find the parts . I'm pretty sure a different motor or head rebuild is in your future though.
Keep taking pics . I keep meaning to post the a pic of an exhaust valve I found in my 750 k4 . PO had put on drag pipes but didn't re jet . Burned the valve away . It would still run . Great motors .
Mike
CB750K1
CB750K4

Offline JohnPayne

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2010, 03:50:36 PM »
Hah, yeah. I'll definitely document the process. I am excited to do some head work, not to get the motor out though. Then there is the urge to strip the bike and do a powder-coat. Hmmmm....This will be fun (have to keep telling myself that).
1978 CB750F
1991 Harley Sportster XLH 883

Offline TwoTired

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2010, 04:12:10 PM »
Could the tappet adjuster have fallen into the cylinder head and is jamming the intake valve, hence, air/fuel going to opposite direction out of the carb?
I see you are an optimist.  ;)

One of the "popular" nuances of the 77-78 CB750F model is it's propensity to wear out valve guides much earlier than the rest of the 750 line.  Some with as little as 25K miles.
These heads have bigger valves and to do that the valve geometry had to change along with domed pistons.

The valve angle placed a lot of side force on the guides and they wore out oblong.  The valve would then wobble at the stem end and the seat.  The seat would wear and ruin the valve seat and valve face, leaking compression.  The stem end would wear on the valve adjuster increasing clearance, and the hammering and wobble would mushroom the valve stem and the adjuster.  Wouldn't surprise me if the hammering and rotation didn't knock the tappet adjuster loose.

The valve spring compresses when the valve is opened by the camshaft.  Jamming an adjuster post in the spring might keep the valve closed.  I don't see how it would keep the valve from closing, but I haven't seen every failure there is to see.

If your engine has the dreaded valve guide issue.  It will almost certainly be cheaper to find another engine.  If you want to avoid the guide wear entirely, then get a K model engine or an F model prior to 77 and paint it black for a disguise.

Shop for all new valve guides, and valve seat grind, Either new valves or refaced at both end existing valves and lash cap to restore the proper valve height for proper seat pressure, all new adjusters, and a gasket kit.

For an estimate of cost for JUST the head work, contact Mreick, a forum member here.

One of my Cb750F models already had a 78 K model transplanted into it.  FYI.  I don't have much riding time on any of my 750s.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline JohnPayne

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2010, 04:21:06 PM »
What do you normally ride?
1978 CB750F
1991 Harley Sportster XLH 883

Offline TwoTired

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2010, 04:44:51 PM »
What do you normally ride?
I have 2 Cb550Fs in regular rotation along with the CB700SC.  I'm trying to add one of the CB750Fs, but it is being pretty stubborn with annoying pop up issues as a result of sitting, ignored for 25 years.  It runs ok now, but it is oiling my boot and still needs a lot of cosmetic stuff.  But hey, it was free and I have this problem that I have to fix things that are fundamentally good but others have abandoned. 

It's a curse.  A personal foible.  It wouldn't be so bad, I suppose.  But, these things seek me out unmercifully.

At least I stopped buying them. ::)
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2010, 06:47:20 PM »
I forgot you had that 700SC...... prolly the best bike Honda ever made ( closely followed by the 650 SC ! ).

Oh, and the blowing air issue... +1 with the bent intake valve not closing.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 06:49:28 PM by Spanner 1 »
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If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Offline JohnPayne

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2010, 06:54:44 PM »
Yeah, I would kill for a Nighthawk S. Pretty hard to find though. I think that bike was what got me into motorcycles.
1978 CB750F
1991 Harley Sportster XLH 883

Offline scottly

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2010, 07:03:09 PM »
John, is the offending valve on the front of the motor, above the exhaust pipe, or on the back of the motor, above the carburetor?
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Offline JohnPayne

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2010, 08:42:46 PM »
Back of the motor. #4 right next to the kick start.
1978 CB750F
1991 Harley Sportster XLH 883

Offline scottly

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2010, 09:07:30 PM »
Hmm, don't know. If the missing valve adjuster screw were on the front (exhaust valve), then the blowing out thru the carb could be caused by the exhaust valve not opening far enough to release the pressure in the cylinder before the intake opens. (had it happen on a Corvair once)
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline JohnPayne

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2010, 09:56:30 PM »
Yeah, exhaust side looks good. The spark plug looks perfect as well.
1978 CB750F
1991 Harley Sportster XLH 883

Offline Frankencake

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Re: #4 carb blowing air out.
« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2010, 06:59:23 AM »
Is it spitting air on every cycle?  Is it a steady stream of pressure coming out of that cylinder?  Is it a simple popping sometimes?  Show a picture of the spark plug from that cylinder?  I'd really like to see it.
"Sure, if you don't want that bike in your backyard, I guess I'll take it."  "I'll probably just scrap it......"

Frankencake:  Brotherhood of the unemployed?  What's our secret handshake?

333:  Think "Shakeweight".