Topic: UK National Health Care

[BobbyR]

I have known people from Canada, UK and the Europe. They seem happy with their system. I have recently completed treatment for Prostate Cancer and I have nothing but good things to say about my Insurance Company. They payed out huge sums and my out of pocket was a few hundred dollars. I do however pay a large premium.

Many others have not had good experiences with theirs, for the same condition. All I can say is that it is spotty, and may be spotty in other Countries also.

The US is much more complex than people imagine, we have a large population, and complex private medical system. To transition this large population and medical infrastructure another model will not be easy. The current Bill is quite poor and should be scrapped. I was a supporter, now I have deep doubts.

This can be done, but it will take time and much more thought than went into this bill. The special interests will have to be excluded before real progress can be made.

[traveler]

The USA is a Capitalistic country.  If people don't wnat that....why not immigrate to a socialist country?  Seems that would be alot easier that trying to convince everyone inside of the coasts that having every facet of your life controlled is great.

~Joe

[BobbyR]

The USA is a Capitalistic country.  If people don't wnat that....why not immigrate to a socialist country?  Seems that would be alot easier that trying to convince everyone inside of the coasts that having every facet of your life controlled is great.

~Joe

Yes we are Capitalistic society. We do support Schools, Police, Fire Services and the Military using public money. Perhaps if we think about Medical care as we do about those services it becomes less scary.

[Retro Rocket]

good to hear....but how expensive is everything there? 

Well its one of the holiday capitals of the world Joe so it can't be too bad. We have a smaller market so things like old bike parts are better sourced over seas but i wouldn't say that we are worse off because of dearer prices, we also earn more so it all balances out. I was recently talking to Kit {forum member} and from what she was saying our wages leave yours for dead so i suppose it all balances out in the end. And Joe, if you think your life is less controlled than ours you would be sadly mistaken The whole world is being controlled and we are just as "free" as you are and probably safer...

Mick

[traveler]

There is a difference.

Every firefighter, police officer, and military member exchanges their efforts in return for wages.  Healthcare has no returns....it's a giveaway program whose sole intention is to create and maintain a permanent voting block of people living on the dole.

for universal healthcare to work, you have to convince doctors that letting Obama decide how much moeny they get paid is ok.  You have to convince the owner of the hospitals that having the government take them over, make all the decisions, while they are taking the financial gamble is ok.

I think if people want Socialism, they should just get out!  There are plenty of Socialist countries that will take them.

I have zero patience for people sticking their hand out.  Go get a job.  Pay your own way.  Quit looking at me....quit trying to pass the hat around every time it's your turn to pay the bill.

~joe

[traveler]

good to hear....but how expensive is everything there?  

Well its one of the holiday capitals of the world Joe so it can't be too bad. We have a smaller market so things like old bike parts are better sourced over seas but i wouldn't say that we are worse off because of dearer prices, we also earn more so it all balances out. I was recently talking to Kit {forum member} and from what she was saying our wages leave yours for dead so i suppose it all balances out in the end. And Joe, if you think your life is less controlled than ours you would be sadly mistaken The whole world is being controlled and we are just as "free" as you are and probably safer...

Mick

Mick.....I have guns....they are loaded right now, and I have the legal right to defend my home.

Sorry, Mate.

Remember when seconds count, the cops are mere minutes away.

~Joe

[Retro Rocket]

Every firefighter, police officer, and military member exchanges their efforts in return for wages.  Healthcare has no returns....it's a giveaway program whose sole intention is to create and maintain a permanent voting block of people living ont he dole.

Sorry mate but there are even stories on this forum that tell of people being denied health care because they don't earn enough or have been discriminated against for being sick in the first place, doesn't happen here.
You need to separate the dole from your argument because that is just wrong, i know it does happen but thats not the reason for it.  Joe you probably need guns mate because your crime rate makes us look like angels,and most of yours is gun related.....Don't ever doubt my ability to defend my home Joe, i am an old fashioned "kill for my family" kinda guy.....

Mick

[BobbyR]

There is a difference.

Every firefighter, police officer, and military member exchanges their efforts in return for wages.  Healthcare has no returns....it's a giveaway program whose sole intention is to create and maintain a permanent voting block of people living on the dole.

for universal healthcare to work, you have to convince doctors that letting Obama decide how much moeny they get paid is ok.  You have to convince the owner of the hospitals that having the government take them over, make all the decisions, while they are taking the financial gamble is ok.

I think if people want Socialism, they should just get out!  There are plenty of Socialist countries that will take them.

I have zero patience for people sticking their hand out.  Go get a job.  Pay your own way.  Quit looking at me....quit trying to pass the hat around every time it's your turn to pay the bill.

~joe

Well Doctors, Nurses, Technicians exchange their efforts for wages, and the return is hopefully relief from suffering. In fact as I recall I got free medical care in the Army. Veterans get free medical care for non service connected conditions,
and many don't have jobs. Many do, but they go there so they don't have to pay. I don't go there since I don;t want to drain resources from those who really need care for their injuries.

[traveler]

When you are int eh military, you EARN all of those bennies

[BobbyR]

When you are int eh military, you EARN all of those bennies

Some do and some don't

[mgbgt89]

I have no idea how to fix how #$%*ed up our healthcare system is. All i know is, I try and use it as little as possible. I hope when i'm old and dieing, someone smarter than me will have it figured out. I honestly have no faith in that happening though. Way too many people are getting rich off of healthcare.

I fell off a roof a while back and really messed up my wrist. I could move it, so i didn't go to the hospital. I wrapped it up for a few weeks until the pain went away. It still bothers me sometimes but there is nothing i can do about it. I work my ass off, and don't have insurance. The last time i went to the hospital it cost me nearly 1500 dollars out of my pocket to get stitches. That is a MONTH of my pay. Had i known it would have been that much, I would have told the doctor to give me some antibiotics, bought a bottle of whiskey and stitched it up myself.

[traveler]

When you are int eh military, you EARN all of those bennies

Some do and some don't

I earn mine every damn time I go do a job nobody else wants to do.

~Joe

[DammitDan]

People who are against universal healthcare seem to believe they aren't paying for healthcare as it is now...

I pay a little more than 10% of my net income towards a high deductible personal healthcare policy.  I'm a perfectly healthy 27 year old male who doesn't smoke, doesn't drink and isn't overweight.  I have to pay $2500 out of pocket for any medical expenses I have up front, and anything over is paid 100% by my healthcare provider (and they constantly give me PLENTY of grief for it).  And I still pay more than $100 a month for major medical as a student with two part-time jobs.

I can't get a decent healthcare policy through my jobs because they simply don't offer them.  Just like millions upon millions of other Americans out there.

I'm sure the healthcare policy that YOU'RE paying for is proportionally just as expensive as mine (more likely more expensive proportionally).  The myth is that if we go to a universal system you would only be paying MORE than what you are paying now.  In reality, other countries (France, UK, Australia, Canada) have been able make a single-payer healthcare system work with employees paying between 5% and 12% of their net income in a healthcare tax.  And these systems work effectively, regardless of the individual horror stories you hear.  I can tell you some horror stories myself of our backwards healthcare system (like how I have consistently been forced 3 years in a row to argue with my health insurance company, who refuses to pay for my one free well-check visit that THEY provide in my policy, or how my grandfather nearly died in a hospital ICU hallway because they "forgot" about him.)

You are ALREADY paying as much in individual healthcare premiums as other countries' citizens are paying in universal healthcare taxes.  And yet the system you defend is the equivalent of consumer dog#$%*!

[traveler]

I have no idea how to fix how #$%*ed up our healthcare system is. All i know is, I try and use it as little as possible. I hope when i'm old and dieing, someone smarter than me will have it figured out. I honestly have no faith in that happening though. Way too many people are getting rich off of healthcare.

I fell off a roof a while back and really messed up my wrist. I could move it, so i didn't go to the hospital. I wrapped it up for a few weeks until the pain went away. It still bothers me sometimes but there is nothing i can do about it. I work my ass off, and don't have insurance. The last time i went to the hospital it cost me nearly 1500 dollars out of my pocket to get stitches. That is a MONTH of my pay. Had i known it would have been that much, I would have told the doctor to give me some antibiotics, bought a bottle of whiskey and stitched it up myself.

I have a few scars from just putting the bandaid on tight for awhile isntead of stitches.  The only difference is, I never saw it as somebody else's responsibility to pay for stitches.  I cleaned the darn thing up and changed the bandages regularly and kept them tight enough to let the skin fuse together.

In the future, people are jsut going to have to get used to taking care of  themselves like that.

One one FACT that keeps coming up that everyone ignores is....there isn't enough MONEY to do universal healthcare for 300 MILLION people!!!  

~Joe

[traveler]

People who are against universal healthcare seem to believe they aren't paying for healthcare as it is now...

I pay a little more than 10% of my net income towards a high deductible personal healthcare policy.  I'm a perfectly healthy 27 year old male who doesn't smoke, doesn't drink and isn't overweight.  I have to pay $2500 out of pocket for any medical expenses I have up front, and anything over is paid 100% by my healthcare provider (and they constantly give me PLENTY of grief for it).  And I still pay more than $100 a month for major medical as a student with two part-time jobs.

I can't get a decent healthcare policy through my jobs because they simply don't offer them.  Just like millions upon millions of other Americans out there.

I'm sure the healthcare policy that YOU'RE paying for is proportionally just as expensive as mine (more likely more expensive proportionally).  The myth is that if we go to a universal system you would only be paying MORE than what you are paying now.  In reality, other countries (France, UK, Australia, Canada) have been able make a single-payer healthcare system work with employees paying between 5% and 12% of their net income in a healthcare tax.  And these systems work effectively, regardless of the individual horror stories you hear.  I can tell you some horror stories myself of our backwards healthcare system (like how I have consistently been forced 3 years in a row to argue with my health insurance company, who refuses to pay for my one free well-check visit that THEY provide in my policy, or how my grandfather nearly died in a hospital ICU hallway because they "forgot" about him.)

You are ALREADY paying as much in individual healthcare premiums as other countries' citizens are paying in universal healthcare taxes.  And yet the system you defend is the equivalent of consumer dog#$%*!

Yeah, it is fk'd up...but "france, England and Canada"....don't have 300 million people, with a baby boomer generation retiring and 12million+ illegals sticking their hands in the pot of money....with less and less paying in.

Illegals don't pay in.  Retirees don't pay in.  less and less people are paying in.

So, whose gonna pay the bill?  YOU?  Dosen't sound like it, so I guess it's me then.  Well I'm saying "fk that!"

Don't like it?  Next time you see an illegal working somewhere...report him!  He is a drain on a system YOU are paying for!  He ain't supposed to be here anyway.  

~Joe

[traveler]

When you are int eh military, you EARN all of those bennies

Some do and some don't

I guess you forgot what it was like to have someone in your a$$ all the time telling you "get a haircut, go shave, clean your room, make your bunk, polish the floor...by the way we're working this weekend....oh, and you have 4 bunkmates and I don't give a crap if you like them or not, shut up and move!"

Yeah.....you made your sacrifices, don't kid yourself.

~Joe

[DammitDan]

First off, populations tend to grow at exponential rates.  Those aging baby boomers all already had their 2.5 children.  Those 2.5 children will have (or have had) 2.5 children of their own.  And the vast majority of these offspring are or will be productive members of society.  There are more taxpayers now than there have ever been.  And next year there will be even MORE taxpayers!

Besides, there's isn't a magic number that once the line is crossed the economy stops working.  Just because someone retires it doesn't mean that their job becomes a void and their children become vagrants who feed on the system.  Our government didn't collapse when it hit 100 million, or 200 million, or even 300 million.  Why?  Because the system is self sustaining.  This is why it won't collapse when we hit 400 million or even *gasp* 500 million.  Shifting money from insurance premiums over to healthcare taxes won't cause any paradigm shift or make our country disappear into a black hole.

As for reporting illegals?  Ya know I just went through this awesome exhibit at the Holocaust Museum in DC about the Nazis' systematic propaganda campaign of segregation and branding of Jews in Germany.  I can see so many parallels nowadays it's not even funny.

[traveler]

until one takes your job

I think if you go look at growth projection in the US you will see that the baby boomers have NOT increased our population at all.  In fact more and more people are NOT having kids.

BTW The Jews in Germany were German citizens.  The Illegals here are not.

What part of "illegal" do you NOT understand? 

I believe in us being a nation of laws.  Give a little here, give a little there, next thing you have lawlessness.  At what point do laws matter?  There will always be someone who says a law is wrong!  Every prison is full of guys that will tell you "I was framed!"

Nice try at trying to spin my point into racism though.  I'm not racist at all....I'd take a mexi girl to bed in a hearbeat!


~Joe

[hotpocket]

for what it's worth,  I've been undergoing physical therapy and tests for various sports injuries over the past two years.  the bills have accumulated into  the tens of thousands, i've paid roughly $1,500.

 this is all through the insurance from my work.  I make $15/ hr working on dumptrucks, nothing glamorous.
in my experience, the health care is good. you just have to work for it.

[seaweb11]

I have always been a staunch supporter of our Canadian Medical System. I've said this before,  $125.00 a month for a family of 3.
In my personal experience If you're bleeding you get sorted, if a bone is sticking out of your arm, you get sorted, if you need an operation you get one in a timely fashion.

On the other hand, my Mother was just telling me of a cousin of hers in Alberta.
Her husband needs $5000.00 worth of drugs to stay alive at home in a wheelchair?
He was a cop for 30 years, so has a pension and they have a house paid for and good savings, but WTF!!!     I actually said that to my Mom

I thought to myself at that moment, that I would never spend my families finances on that type of life

I never really thought that all my sh*t could be compromised that way living here in Canada

[demon78]

Ed you're full of #$%* and yelling like a teen ager who's trying to convince their betters that black is white. Traveller in earlier posts I explain that my wife had aggressive cancer and essentially was treated from diagnosis to treatment in no longer than about 2 weeks, maybe your gov's health care plan is #$%*ed up, I don't know, I do Know that Canada's is not that bad and as far as me being a socialist no one tells me what the hell do, twice, and as far as entering in to a debate about health care, piss on it, I've already done that.
Bill the demon.

[smileswithadimple]

Well the way I see it is, if the you are so proud of being capitalist/capitalistic country, can't you see that illegals are merely "capitalizing" on the opportunity the capitalists have provided them with?  Don't blame the illegals, its the employers who are hiring and paying them.  Ultimately they are undercutting, its just business, the illegals are willing to work for less, if your not, start looking...  Its actually ironic... Capitalism 

[City Boy]

Hi gang.I don't think Canada is a socialist country.I believe what we have is capitalism without the every man for himself and get out of my way if you can't cut it attitude! Of course,the undocumented resident issue south of the 49th is a problem that will only be fixed by a longer wall or a higher standard of living for Mexican citizens.   Rock On 

[dave500]

what retro said,in america you get nothing for nothing,thats whats so scary about it.

[mgbgt89]

I have no idea how to fix how #$%*ed up our healthcare system is. All i know is, I try and use it as little as possible. I hope when i'm old and dieing, someone smarter than me will have it figured out. I honestly have no faith in that happening though. Way too many people are getting rich off of healthcare.

I fell off a roof a while back and really messed up my wrist. I could move it, so i didn't go to the hospital. I wrapped it up for a few weeks until the pain went away. It still bothers me sometimes but there is nothing i can do about it. I work my ass off, and don't have insurance. The last time i went to the hospital it cost me nearly 1500 dollars out of my pocket to get stitches. That is a MONTH of my pay. Had i known it would have been that much, I would have told the doctor to give me some antibiotics, bought a bottle of whiskey and stitched it up myself.

I have a few scars from just putting the bandaid on tight for awhile isntead of stitches.  The only difference is, I never saw it as somebody else's responsibility to pay for stitches.  I cleaned the darn thing up and changed the bandages regularly and kept them tight enough to let the skin fuse together.

In the future, people are jsut going to have to get used to taking care of  themselves like that.

One one FACT that keeps coming up that everyone ignores is....there isn't enough MONEY to do universal healthcare for 300 MILLION people!!!  

~Joe

I never said it was someone elses resposiblity to pay for stitches, But 1500 dollars for a shot and 10 minutes of a doctors time is #$%*ing rediculous.

Like i said, I wont be going back to a doctor any time soon unless i've got bones sticking through my skin.

I have no hope for this country at all, too many people do want to get something for nothing. It seems to be a common attitude of americans that everything should be handed to them. In my opinion, If you don't work, you shouldn't get anything. It's the people like me that do work that end up getting screwed in the end.