Author Topic: UK National Health Care  (Read 10127 times)

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Offline w1sa

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Re: UK National Health Care
« Reply #50 on: July 16, 2010, 08:29:35 AM »

[/quote]

I never said it was someone elses resposiblity to pay for stitches, But 1500 dollars for a shot and 10 minutes of a doctors time is #$%*ing rediculous.

Like i said, I wont be going back to a doctor any time soon unless i've got bones sticking through my skin.
....................................................................................
[/quote]

Ten years ago, while holidaying down the coast, my son received a deep cut to the side of his calf muscle....... It was a sunday morning. Called the emergency surgery number and was told to go to the doctor's office........... Doctor arrives ,opens surgery, administers pain killer and tetanus injections, cleans and stitches wound, completes paperwork and collects $110 cash........................ He then explains he couldn't just bill it all to the medi system, since it was out of regular surgery hours on a week-end, and besides that we had interrupted his weekly golf game.

So, I have to both agree and sympathise with your sentiments and frustration.

Offline tortelvis

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Re: UK National Health Care
« Reply #51 on: July 16, 2010, 09:10:37 AM »
Yes, when you look at the WHO healthcare rankings, it is very clear that they have political motives that extend beyond improving the quality of care provided by the health care systems.  I highly recommend that people have a look at both the rankings (Greece, Cyprus, Morocco, Dominica and Colombia are ranked higher than the United States, for example) and the criteria they used to create those rankings.  Use a very careful, critical eye, and decide for yourself whether WHO is a credible source.

It might be worth a little research, for example WHO (World Health Organization), to see how various nations rank in terms of their overall healthcare, as well as each countries percent of GDP expended on healthcare.

It's awful to see your country not come out on top of EVERYTHING EVERY TIME isn't it? BUT.. that does not mean that the criticism is unjustified. Don't want to set you off, just sayin...

Offline BobbyR

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Re: UK National Health Care
« Reply #52 on: July 16, 2010, 09:20:57 AM »
When you are int eh military, you EARN all of those bennies

Some do and some don't

I guess you forgot what it was like to have someone in your a$$ all the time telling you "get a haircut, go shave, clean your room, make your bunk, polish the floor...by the way we're working this weekend....oh, and you have 4 bunkmates and I don't give a crap if you like them or not, shut up and move!"

Yeah.....you made your sacrifices, don't kid yourself. ;) ;)

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Oh I remember very well. I was speaking on an itellectual level. A guy who spent his 2 years in Ft Dix NJ moving paper cannot be put in the same class as a grunt doing his tour in the sh1t. The paper pusher would be the first to claim benefits.

Why by vitrue of miltary service are you entitled to free medical care for non service connected conditions. It is like asking a former employer to carry you on their policy. So, every Veteran is entitled free Gov't healthcare for any condition for the rest of their life regardless of need. i would never suggest they do away with that, I was just following a train of thought.
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Re: UK National Health Care
« Reply #53 on: July 16, 2010, 12:00:28 PM »
Actually retirees and their dependants have to pay for health insurance, as well as dependants of a spouse on active duty.  The only one getting "Free" healthcare is the active duty service member.

If you don't offer benefits and good pay....no one will do this.  This is a hard life I live....and 90% plus come in for one hitch and move on.....

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Re: UK National Health Care
« Reply #54 on: July 16, 2010, 12:05:00 PM »


In reality, other countries (France, UK, Australia, Canada) have been able make a single-payer healthcare system work with employees paying between 5% and 12% of their net income in a healthcare tax.

I'm afraid I might have to correct you there. My National Insurance (from which is paid healthcare, unemployment and state pension) is deducted from my gross salary at source. My employer also has to contribute a certain percentage for me also.

Offline ryder60

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Re: UK National Health Care
« Reply #55 on: July 16, 2010, 12:33:16 PM »
I really wonder if the proponents of the American system understand anything of what they say.  First, it has been said that other countries that are ranked above the USA in health care have 'political motives'.  What are they?  I'm waiting to hear because I'm not sure what you are talking about.


There is apparently good health insurance.  The problem is that too many people don't have it and can't get it.  With the turn-down of the economy, how many millions just lost their coverage?  This does not mean that people don't get sick because they don't have coverage.  It means they stay sick until their only option is to go to the emergency room, which is a costly way to correct something that may have been treated months ago.  It also means many people become unable to work and go on social assistance or even that some people or family members resort to unlawful activity to generate income to cover health costs.  It means more defaults on loans of all types.

There are two things emerge from this.  The first is that you pay for their health care.  And you pay top dollar for it, more than any insurance company pays.  The second thing is that it is usually acute care applied too late for optimum outcomes.  If anyone has ever done maintenance on something why did you do it?  Because it is easiest and least expensive to maintain something in good shape rather than repair it when broken.  Has anyone ever heard the old saying that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure?

Under a single payer system costs are better controlled in countries around the world.  So you can understand a single payer system I'll try to illustrate how it works.  Just as an insurance company represents a pool of money paid in by policy holders out of which payments are made, a single payer does the same.  In the case of the USA ,right now, millions of people get heath care, often too little, too late, and the government pays their bill.  Only the government can't get the same rates the insurance company does because that wouldn't be the American Way.  The American Way is the way of corporate welfare.  In the allegedly free market, that isn't anywhere free, the government can't be allowed to compete with private corporations.  If a single payer system was adopted it would allow the government to negotiate prices for goods and services.  All citizens would be covered and after a period of maybe 5 years the health across the citizenry of the country would be better than it presently is.  Many who are or will not be working due to health reasons under the present system will be working, or back at work, and paying taxes.  There will be less defaulting on house, car and credit card loans, and a great number of other benefits to the country which you can identify and I don't need to list.

My experience tells me that the mantra of government not being able to do anything as good or better than private enterprise is a fable.  As the writer suggested above, a study of rankings of countries health care systems ought to convince anyone that the present system is a failure for everyone but the providers of the care and the insurance companies.  In short, it is a scheme where a few get rich and the many suffer.  It is a scheme where the individual is afraid to leave a job for something preferable because he will lose insurance.  It is the most expensive system in the western world and it is a system that continues to gobble up an increasing amount of the GDP.  It's a bloody fools game.

Now let me hear the wailing.  Yes lets blame it on the illegals: but aren't they working and paying taxes which they can't get back.  Lets just say if you want it get a job: do you see a surplus of jobs?  good paying jobs that provide the coverage?  In the final analysis some butt head is going to tell me he has a gun and someone is going to have to pry it out of his cold, dead fingers.  That can be done and you will have brought it upon yourself.  This whole issue needs to be thought through intelligently and talked through civilly.  An optimum result will require bipartisanship and honesty.  The present reform leaves too much to be desired and the blame for that cannot be laid at the feet of the folks that tried to achieve a better program.  It can and will be laid at the feet of the 'no' party and its obstructionism.

I'm always willing to discuss things rationally and civilly but have no desire tobe part of a tirade.




Offline demon78

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Re: UK National Health Care
« Reply #56 on: July 16, 2010, 04:20:32 PM »
Right on Ryder! I really have a hard time with so many intelligent people not getting it and if that's what happens in the American political system that the people are so brainwashed  by the forces of capitalism, free enterprise and America first, thank god I'm a Canadian and I do apologize to all my American neighbors I'm not trying to be anti American I just twitch about your system being exported here and being held up as the thing to emulate. As an aside I'm now reasonably sure that our "conservative government" realizes that if they try and institute something like your system they will fall so far that the party would have to renamed the "Idiot Party" before any would vote for them again.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: UK National Health Care
« Reply #57 on: July 16, 2010, 05:35:14 PM »
I like most of what Ryder says. I have always thought that a National Insurance Fund would be the way to. Employers would pay into it, individuals would pay into it, and the Government would of course cover the poor as they do now anyway.

The current Obama bill is some sort of cobbled together accumulation of mismatched parts.

What I am seeing is the demise of the small Community Hospital, where you can get good primary care for ailments that require monitoring and treatment. They are being squeezed out by predatory insurance companies, and also medicare and medicaid which are Gov't programs.

I would look at the bills for my tests and treatments. A test that retailed for $1,200 was paid by the Insurance Company at $450. Now is this a $1,200 procedure or a $450 procedure? If the specialist would take $450, then the market rate is $450.

I have always been a bleeding heart Conservative, and big into free markets. I also feel that Medical care would fall under a public utility category rather than an Corporate business.

I wish I had THE answer, all I know is that we have to try. What we have now is not working.
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Offline dave500

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Re: UK National Health Care
« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2010, 12:59:41 AM »
micheal moore had a show on this,,like all the differences world wide.i got bitten by a dog a month or so ago,went to the local hospital and got cleaned up and a jab,no charge,,this was work related though so i dont know if anything was paid by my boss,no time off work or anything,i had the light truck parked in the carpark,straight back into it.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 01:03:34 AM by dave500 »

Offline simon#42

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Re: UK National Health Care
« Reply #59 on: July 17, 2010, 02:38:52 AM »
very interesting post ryder , i think bobby has touched on an important point though ,the difference in costs of treatment.
i suspect there are alot of people out there who are making alot of money out of the current system , the last thing they will want is change .  is the real argument against a government run health service a reduction in medical care or a reduction in profit ?

Offline wardenerd

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Re: UK National Health Care
« Reply #60 on: July 17, 2010, 04:20:17 AM »
The problem as I see it is that for some reason illness is not considered something we are responsible for.  Truth is if you have a sick child it is your responsibility to provide for them.  This includes mental and phtsical illness.  If you get cancer it is a personal problem not a government problem.
For many years I took jobs that had great benefits and lower pay.  My now retiring friends are not being treated fairly because they took jobs that paid more but had crappy or no benefits.  Now they have not saved for retirement or have insurance and they want me to pay for their poor preparation.  I drove a '72 carolla for 10 years to save for my retirement and I do not want to pay for their lack of planning.  If you can not afford children do not have them.  If you can not afford a sick child do not have children at all because if you have them they are your responsibility.

I get great medical care in the US now because it was on my list of things my family needed and was my responsibility.  I do not want to share now because I was not lucky or fortunate to have this. I worked for it and planned for it.  Ayn Rand was right when she said that you should never be embarrased for looking out for yourself and your family first.

Offline ryder60

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Re: UK National Health Care
« Reply #61 on: July 17, 2010, 11:22:49 AM »
The problem as I see it is that for some reason illness is not considered something we are responsible for.  Truth is if you have a sick child it is your responsibility to provide for them.  This includes mental and phtsical illness.  If you get cancer it is a personal problem not a government problem.
For many years I took jobs that had great benefits and lower pay.  My now retiring friends are not being treated fairly because they took jobs that paid more but had crappy or no benefits.  Now they have not saved for retirement or have insurance and they want me to pay for their poor preparation.  I drove a '72 carolla for 10 years to save for my retirement and I do not want to pay for their lack of planning.  If you can not afford children do not have them.  If you can not afford a sick child do not have children at all because if you have them they are your responsibility.

I get great medical care in the US now because it was on my list of things my family needed and was my responsibility.  I do not want to share now because I was not lucky or fortunate to have this. I worked for it and planned for it.  Ayn Rand was right when she said that you should never be embarrased for looking out for yourself and your family first.
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I don't think anyone disagrees with you.  We are all responsible for our health to the extent we have influence over it but many have limited control over genetic proclivities, exposure to communicable diseases, who or why someone turned left in front of them, etc.  I recently watched a documentary that pointed out that many regions of the country have shocking obesity problem which made a connection between the absence of supermarkets in the region and the unavailability of anything but refined, pre-packaged foods.  What I'm getting at is that health care is much larger than an issue about working and buying coverage. 

I'm not sure why you think government has no role in ensuring health care to its citizens.  What does a government have a role in then?  Why do we have police forces if so much crime is person to person?  Why does the government build roads or levees?  Why does a government regulate safety about aircraft or shipping?  Why does your government or mine not just let dead people lie on the street until family members come and clean up.  Heck we could even generate revenue by ticketing the families for their member littering or loitering?  What I'm getting at here is that there is such a thing as a social contract in countries in the civilized world.

What seems incongruous to me is that in the USA the contract seems to guarantee that the government cannot compete with private enterprise but must maintain and enforce such laws as let corporations beggar the young and old with impunity and bill the government after the individual has no money left.  In other countries, no less free and no less democratic, the social contract says the government governs at the pleasure of the people and the people want the best health care via the most rational and cost effective means.   This is done through a coordinated program where the government is empowered to negotiate the value of costs and services (isn't that capitalism at its best) and basic care is available to each and every citizen or resident.  Anyone who wishes to purchase their own private goods and services is free to do so with the government reimbursing them the amount that the service would have cost within the public system.

The reason the USA is different is because in no other country that I know of is a corporation an individual.  Your recent SCOTUS ruling has even gone so far as to say that the corporation is free to spend unlimited funds to support their candidate and the monies spent are not considered campaign funds of the candidate. 

Can you define Fascism?

Both you and I know many who have not been as responsible as we have been in raising and providing for our families.  Some of those folks never knew a caring family and don't/didn't do well when they had/have one of their own.  Some of those folks never saw or had the opportunity to learn good financial skills or prudence of thrift.  We can't do anything about that and I don't think we can punish their families by denying care to them and saying it was somebody else that was irresponsible.  What is past is past.  Lets live in the now, keep what's valuable from the past and build a better tomorrow.

In closing I have to say that Ayn Rand was a non-entity until the present neo-conservatives dug her up to support their domestic policies.  No one should be ashamed of looking out for their self or their family.  But is that where personal responsibility stops?

Thanks for you civil posts and I once lived in Fayetteville myself.  I hope to visit again.



Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: UK National Health Care
« Reply #62 on: July 17, 2010, 04:47:06 PM »
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i suspect there are alot of people out there who are making alot of money out of the current system

And therein we have the problem...

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Offline edbikerii

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Re: UK National Health Care
« Reply #63 on: July 25, 2010, 12:25:13 PM »
I agree with you.  Since you cannot dispute the facts that I posted directly from the Canadian government's web site, and you obviously don't want to even bother trying, then the best strategy for you is to ignore me, as my logic will ALWAYS kick your ass.

I think it best to totally disregard Ed's comments as the guy is that negative you will get a dispute even if your health care or political views even if they are 100% correct, you have no idea mate.

Poor examples again, you are hearing from people in 3 countries that have a public health care system that works and yes there are faults but i can guarantee you mate that our system makes yours seem like some sort of sick torture. Once again its all a #$%*ing conspiracy when someone starts quoting stats,come on Ed its all becoming a bit old, the tin foil hat goes on every time i see you respond to a thread. We also don't judge on preexisting conditions so that doesn't factor into coverage as well. You obviously have no idea about others systems mate so really your comments are just that, ill informed comments. Canada's system is similar to ours and most time related problems stem back to not enough hospitals or staff, not the refusal to treat. I lived 600 miles from Brisbane and when my illness started to get worse i rang the hospital, not my GP and explained what was happening, they told me to get to the hospital as soon as i could. I did just that and was admitted straight away and a series of tests were done and i was given an appointment with a specialist the next day. Too cut a long story short, i was in hospital for a couple of weeks short of a year and treated exceptionally well, actually i felt safer in hospital than staying with my friends in Brisbane. My specialist is no longer with the hospital but i have his number and can ring him any time for free advice, this guy saved my life and is also a great human being. I can not complain about any of my treatment or the way it all happened. If we ever end up with a system like the US i will leave the country. You guys have been raped by your system for so long it has just become normal and it also seems that you believe all the bull#$%* your politicians tell you instead of finding out for your selves. You all need to get over your fear of change but i suspect while you have people like ED feeding the masses with fear mongering and rubbish then its not going to get better any time soon......good luck..

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Offline edbikerii

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Re: UK National Health Care
« Reply #64 on: July 25, 2010, 12:26:27 PM »
+1 Problem is, the liberal democrats who control the education system, the welfare system and the tax system WANT to CREATE MORE LAZY BASTARDS so they can get their votes.

good to hear....but how expensive is everything there?  Taxes on businesses push prices up.  Somebody has to pay for it.  The cost of free healthcare, is everybody gets to pay more taxes to provide for those too damn lazy to work and pay their way....that's what this ends up being about......covering the lazy barstards.
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: UK National Health Care
« Reply #65 on: July 25, 2010, 12:29:29 PM »
Well, actually no.  I no longer support cops in suburban areas like mine getting paid over $100K in salary plus incredibly generous benefits and pensions.  Teachers who work 9 months of the year earning $70K plus benefits and pensions is ridiculous too, considering how miserable a job they are doing with our kids (in general).

Plus, the nearest I can tell the police and firemen arrive AFTER they are needed, and they fill out reports for the insurance companies. 

No, I don't think people are happy with the police, fire departments or the teachers anymore.

The USA is a Capitalistic country.  If people don't wnat that....why not immigrate to a socialist country?  Seems that would be alot easier that trying to convince everyone inside of the coasts that having every facet of your life controlled is great.

~Joe

Yes we are Capitalistic society. We do support Schools, Police, Fire Services and the Military using public money. Perhaps if we think about Medical care as we do about those services it becomes less scary.
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: UK National Health Care
« Reply #66 on: July 25, 2010, 12:33:36 PM »
So, let me just point out one thing:  You think the "health care companies" are getting away with stuff, and you think the GOVERNMENT WILL MAKE IT BETTER???????

Sorry, man.  That hust doesn't add up for me.

I dont mind paying for the current health care situation I really dont. But the things that these health care companies gets away with is sick. To them people like you and me are just numbers, I barley go to the doctor unless I am very sick. My friends step dad was diagnosed with a very treatable form of cancer, this was a long time ago, and yes he was treated, AFTER his first insurance company dropped him and he moved to a higher expense out of pocket insurance company. The whole point of insurance companies is that we should not have to worry about getting treatment or being buried in debt when we get sick, but with these current companies and laws, they literally get away with murder.


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Offline DammitDan

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Re: UK National Health Care
« Reply #67 on: July 25, 2010, 12:51:08 PM »
Well, actually no.  I no longer support cops in suburban areas like mine getting paid over $100K in salary plus incredibly generous benefits and pensions.  Teachers who work 9 months of the year earning $70K plus benefits and pensions is ridiculous too, considering how miserable a job they are doing with our kids (in general).

Plus, the nearest I can tell the police and firemen arrive AFTER they are needed, and they fill out reports for the insurance companies.  

No, I don't think people are happy with the police, fire departments or the teachers anymore.

Wow.  I'm guessing you've never been a teacher, or police officer, or fireman.

I'm sitting next to my sister right now (the one who "only works 9 months out of the year") and she's working on her syllabus and lesson plans for the upcoming year.  In one of her 3 months off!  I guess she's a workaholic who's making a whopping $36k a year.

Here's her normal routine:

1.5 hours per day to plan lessons and activities.  Plus about an hour per day for preparation.  Then 6.5 hours per day to teach.  Plus about 5 hours per week for grading.  Plus all other administrative tasks like filling out paperwork (who knows how much that ends up being).  So she works about 50-55 hours per week.  And this is for teachers who are already established and well-prepared.  New teachers can work 18 hours a day or more.

Teachers *actually* work 10 months out of the year (200 contracted days) with the children.  Only a school administrator can make $70k a year.  The most that a teacher can make in Rutherford county (a pretty good school system in TN) with a doctorate (PhD) and 25 years experience is ~ $60k.

Quit blaming the teachers and start blaming the politicians who make educational decisions of how teachers are "supposed" to do their jobs.  And blame the students who don't bother to bring a pencil to class!
« Last Edit: July 25, 2010, 12:53:15 PM by DammitDan »
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Offline ev0lve

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Re: UK National Health Care
« Reply #68 on: July 25, 2010, 01:27:13 PM »
The problem as I see it is that for some reason illness is not considered something we are responsible for.  Truth is if you have a sick child it is your responsibility to provide for them.  This includes mental and phtsical illness.  If you get cancer it is a personal problem not a government problem.
For many years I took jobs that had great benefits and lower pay.  My now retiring friends are not being treated fairly because they took jobs that paid more but had crappy or no benefits.  Now they have not saved for retirement or have insurance and they want me to pay for their poor preparation.  I drove a '72 carolla for 10 years to save for my retirement and I do not want to pay for their lack of planning.  If you can not afford children do not have them.  If you can not afford a sick child do not have children at all because if you have them they are your responsibility.

I get great medical care in the US now because it was on my list of things my family needed and was my responsibility.  I do not want to share now because I was not lucky or fortunate to have this. I worked for it and planned for it.  Ayn Rand was right when she said that you should never be embarrased for looking out for yourself and your family first.

How do you feel about euthanasia - I mean, for those who planned poorly?

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: UK National Health Care
« Reply #69 on: July 25, 2010, 04:31:11 PM »
Quote
Since you cannot dispute the facts that I posted directly from the Canadian government's web site, and you obviously don't want to even bother trying, then the best strategy for you is to ignore me, as my logic will ALWAYS kick your ass.

Compare your system to ours mate .....easy choice when you have one...you are just scaremongering.

Quote
+1 Problem is, the liberal democrats who control the education system, the welfare system and the tax system WANT to CREATE MORE LAZY BASTARDS so they can get their votes.

So you take away benifits for these people, and i agree that there are lazy people but there are also people that really need help, and you will have an even worse crime rate than you have now because people will do what ever they need to survive mate, your way will never work.

Quote
+1 Problem is, the liberal democrats

Do you guys need labels to make you feel good...?

Quote
If you get cancer it is a personal problem not a government problem

You think? , we have a prevalence of new cancers that are a direct result of what companies are doing to our food and our environment, who is responsible for that...?  I love the way you guys try and simplify things to suit you own agenda's,maybe you lot should have been politicians.... ::)


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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: UK National Health Care
« Reply #70 on: July 25, 2010, 07:28:50 PM »
The political discussions in the Open Forum are much better than the political discussions in the Political Forum.....  ;)
Oh sht, Keith Turk just signed in !
« Last Edit: July 25, 2010, 07:31:13 PM by Spanner 1 »
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: UK National Health Care
« Reply #71 on: July 25, 2010, 09:14:49 PM »
The political discussions in the Open Forum are much better than the political discussions in the Political Forum.....  ;)
Oh sht, Keith Turk just signed in !

 ;D ;D ;D ;D :o

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Offline DammitDan

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Re: UK National Health Care
« Reply #72 on: July 26, 2010, 07:47:53 AM »
Oh, and I forgot to mention that teachers only get paid for their contracted days.  They have to check a little box on their payment form to either get paid for the 10 month school year or to spread their paychecks out over a full 12 months.  :-\
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: UK National Health Care
« Reply #73 on: July 26, 2010, 08:09:14 AM »
Well, actually no.  I no longer support cops in suburban areas like mine getting paid over $100K in salary plus incredibly generous benefits and pensions.  Teachers who work 9 months of the year earning $70K plus benefits and pensions is ridiculous too, considering how miserable a job they are doing with our kids (in general).

Plus, the nearest I can tell the police and firemen arrive AFTER they are needed, and they fill out reports for the insurance companies.  

No, I don't think people are happy with the police, fire departments or the teachers anymore.

Wow.  I'm guessing you've never been a teacher, or police officer, or fireman.

I'm sitting next to my sister right now (the one who "only works 9 months out of the year") and she's working on her syllabus and lesson plans for the upcoming year.  In one of her 3 months off!  I guess she's a workaholic who's making a whopping $36k a year.

Here's her normal routine:

1.5 hours per day to plan lessons and activities.  Plus about an hour per day for preparation.  Then 6.5 hours per day to teach.  Plus about 5 hours per week for grading.  Plus all other administrative tasks like filling out paperwork (who knows how much that ends up being).  So she works about 50-55 hours per week.  And this is for teachers who are already established and well-prepared.  New teachers can work 18 hours a day or more.

Teachers *actually* work 10 months out of the year (200 contracted days) with the children.  Only a school administrator can make $70k a year.  The most that a teacher can make in Rutherford county (a pretty good school system in TN) with a doctorate (PhD) and 25 years experience is ~ $60k.

Quit blaming the teachers and start blaming the politicians who make educational decisions of how teachers are "supposed" to do their jobs.  And blame the students who don't bother to bring a pencil to class!
The pay scales show the inequity between Teacher salaries. In my School district and the surrounding the starting salaries begin where you 25 year tenured PhD is maxed out. A Shcool administrator is in the $150K range to begin.
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Offline DammitDan

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Re: UK National Health Care
« Reply #74 on: July 26, 2010, 08:47:56 AM »
And taking into account the fact that one could not come close to surviving on $7.25/hr (federal minimum wage) in New York state...  And yet I know plenty of people who are doing it right here in Clarksville, TN.  With a wife and a child, no less.

Hooray for living in the Poor South.  Just remember that there are red, white and blue-blooded Americans living down here, too.  We just do it at a more relaxed pace than everyone else  ;D
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