Topic: Who knows anything about boats?

[lowflyingdutchman]

Yes.

Closed end goes down. Open end up. Pointy end forward and flat end in the back. when you push the rudder left, You'll go right. And vice versa. unless you have a steering wheel, then its just like a car. But without peddles. and in the water. So it's really nothing like a car.

Sorry. Was stronger than myself. Will go back to being quiet now.

[Spanner 1]

Thought 333 was being 'snarky' = calm down !!

[333]

Thought 333 was being 'snarky' = calm down !!

Really???  You ain't seen nothin' yet!

Seriously, safety is a sore spot for me.  I used to work at a bike dealer that also sold jetski's, so I like 'em.  In most boating circles, jetskis are looked upon as the scum of the earth.  And I go to great lengths to explain that it's not the machine, but the idiot (without the training) that's on the machine that should be shunned.  It scares me that someone can go out and get a vehicle that can kill, and use it without any kind of training.


But here's snarky for ya.

Yes.

Closed end goes down. Open end up. Pointy end forward and flat end in the back. when you push the rudder left, You'll go right. And vice versa. unless you have a steering wheel, then its just like a car. But without peddles. and in the water. So it's really nothing like a car.

Sorry. Was stronger than myself. Will go back to being quiet now.

What if you have two pointy ends?

[GammaFlat]

What if you have two pointy ends?

I think then you have more options.

[Bodi]

From what I recall a boat is a hole in the water you fill with money.

[kirkn]

boat - Break Out Another Thousand

[pdxPope]

Paul,

I grew up boating on the Columbia & Willamette in boats just like the ones you are looking at. I have a couple of thoughts if you are interested...

I would stay with a fiberglass hull. (welded aluminum is waaaaaay out of your price range, I don't trust riveted aluminum and wood is just too much maintenance.) Don't get anything smaller than 16' and, really 18' is just about perfect. Boats get a LOT smaller when they are off the trailer and in the water! A 'V' hull will ride a little softer, but a trihull will be more stable.

The Willamette is narrow but deep and on the weekends gets pretty crowded and tends to be choppy.
The Columbia is much wider, but (outside of the shipping lanes) can vary from 4' to more than 90' deep and in the early evening (5:00ish) tends to get a North/South wind that blows up and can also get choppy. The Columbia is one of the most treacherous rivers in the world. The current changes from 2knots to 5knots throughout the course of the year. The sandy bottom is CONTINUALLY changing and new sandbars pop up all the time. It is also a working commercial waterway, so you are going to have to contend with tanker ships, cargo ships and a constant flow of barges.

Outboard motors are simple 2 stroke, water cooled, 2, 3 or 4cyl engines. Nothing mysterious there. But you are correct in your assessment of inboards- they are the same as their automotive counterparts (except for the cooling system which is also pretty simple), so propulsion is really a matter of taste. Outboards will get you up on a plane faster, but don't idle very well. Inboards get better gas mileage but take up more space. If you do go with an outboard stay with OMC (Johnson or Evinrude) or Mercury. Everything else is crap. (oh boy, here it comes....) If you want to fish (trolling rig) you will also need to get a smaller trolling or kicker motor (3-15hp depending on the displacement of the boat)

Make sure whatever you get has a title. All boats over 10' and/or with a bigger motor than 10hp have to be registered. For that you will need a title. Getting a lost title for a boat is the same as getting one for a motorcycle. PITA. You will also need to get your boaters license. As previously stated, you can get it online. (I would also agree to either take some classes, or go out a couple of times with someone who knows what they are doing first. Remember, 6 or 7 people die every year in those two rivers.) You will also need some 'stuff' to make the boat Coast Guard legal: Life jackets for everyone on board; a horn of some kind (handheld air horn is ok) and a throwable (something that floats with a rope tied to it).
Also remember to check out the trailer: lights, tires, overall condition, etc... And practice maneuvering it before you take the boat out your first time. Launching and loading are trickier than you might think. Do yourself a favor, spend a couple of hours @ Chinook Landing or the 42nd st ramp on a nice Saturday and just watch the chaos.

If I was looking I would be very interested in this: http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/boa/1870722526.html
Plus he's been trying to sell it for a couple of weeks and may be flexible on the price. I have no association to it or the seller.

Sorry this was so long winded.

After all the help you've given us over the years, I would be remiss if I didn't offer to reciprocate: I'd be happy to take you out on our boat (17' trihull w/ a 75hp outboard) so you can get an idea of what's what. Or if you have a boat in mind, I'd be happy to come with you and take a look and give you my impressions or give you a couple of suggestions of what to look for.

-JP

[paulages]

Wow, JP, that is fantastic information and I will gladly take you up on your offer(s).  I'll PM you after work about it. Thanks!!!

Paul

[Retro Rocket]

Wow, JP, that is fantastic information and I will gladly take you up on your offer(s).  I'll PM you after work about it. Thanks!!!

Paul

If you add my post to cover where to look for water damage it just about covers everything.
I dispute that inboards are better on fuel, maybe better than old 2 stroke motors but newer ones and 4 stroke outboards are much more economical.

Mick

[pdxPope]

Paul: No problem. Happy to help.

Retro: I agree with you, but in the price range Paul is looking at I don't think a newer 2 stroke or 4 stroke are really in the cards.


-JP

[333]

Wow, JP.  You state openly that all other outboards are crap, which obviously includes Honda, in a Honda forum?  Yeah, you're right.  You'd better duck.

You clearly haven't used any of the major Japanese motors.  They all last as long, and perform as well as the domestics you mentioned.  Being a former parts guy, I can admit to having trouble getting older Yamaha parts, but past that, I got nothing else bad to say.

But then you maligned wood.  What did wood ever do to you?  It is a common misconception that wood is "just too much maintenance".  It's different maintenance.  The misconception stems from natural finish maintenance, which admittedly is more intense.  But wooden boat hulls that have a natural finish are rare.  And below the waterline requires a bottom paint.  But the bottom line is this.  Compared to wood, fiberglass is in it's infancy.  When the first fiberglass boat makes 100 years, give me a call.  Wood has already made that benchmark.

[Retro Rocket]

Paul: No problem. Happy to help.

Retro: I agree with you, but in the price range Paul is looking at I don't think a newer 2 stroke or 4 stroke are really in the cards.


-JP

Yeah, i know, just clarifying...

Power ratings are different now too  than in the past as most outboard power is now quoted at the prop whereas in the 70's and  80's {and earlier} power was rated at the crank meaning an older 50 HP motor had closer to 35-40 HP at the Propellor....

Mick

[mark]

.....  What did wood ever do to you?  ......

Do splinters count?

[Stev-o]

333-

You have to be kidding about a wood boat not needing a lot of maint! When was the last time you gave a fiberglass boat a bottom job? (I've had 6 fiberglass boats and have NEVER done it].

And fiberglass in it's "infancy"?!? The first ones were built in the late 30's, about 65 years ago. Hardly a infant!!
Not sure when you were at the last boat show [I go every year] but over 75% of boats sold are fiberglass and a very low percentage are wood.

I am not "knocking" wood boats [pun intended!] but in the real world, fiberglass is the way to go.

-Steve

[Retro Rocket]

Funny #$%*....   Wooden boats ARE the most labour intensive boats hands down and glass leaves it for dead in every way and if i built a glass boat from scratch, hand laid it would last 100 years easily, easy to discredit something that has only been around for 70 years or so. Think about it 333, there are only so many types of wood suitable for boat making and this took millennium to get right and be understood completely so before you go bagging glass maybe you should learn a bit more about it.
Fibreglass is clearly the most popular and best medium for boat building there is. And remember that there are quite a few different types of glass construction and methods as well as different types of glass matt, which now include Kevlar and carbon fibre..

You clearly haven't used any of the major Japanese motors.  They all last as long, and perform as well as the domestics you mentioned.

Not all, Force are cheap #$%* { but getting better} and the earlier mercury engines up until recently, corroded like a #$%* and needed more maintenance the the OMC equivelants . Honda 4 stroke outboards are excellent and i doubt that he meant anything was wrong with them, i bet he just overlooked them.

Mick

[333]

I would not argue that fiberglass is clearly more popular.  But UV makes fiberglass brittle in time.  So unless you keep it in a enclosed garage, it will deteriorate.  In terms of maintenance, doesn't polishing count?  Fiberglass weathers, and the finish dulls.  It should be polished every year to keep it shiny.  Think of it in terms of the movie, Karate Kid.  When Pat Morita tells Ralph Macchio to "paint the fence" and "wax the car", just replace "fence" and "car" with "boat".  Ralph's character will tell you, it's all work.  Just different work.

Regarding history, yes fiberglass made it's appearance in the late 30s, but didn't become commonplace in boating until the late 50s.  They've been getting it right with wood for hundreds of years.  I've been on a couple of hundred year old boats.  You just can't say that about a fiberglass boat.  Not yet at least.  And IMHO, you probably won't ever be able to.

Let me make my position clear.  I'm not bashing fiberglass.  I just have a preference to wood.  When someone makes a disparaging remark regarding wood, I will come to it's defense.  And finally;

Do splinters count?

No.

[pdxPope]

My advice to Paul was to be taken within the constraints of what he was asking for: First boat, under $1000.

Within those parameters he is NOT going to find any motor newer than 1980 or a restored oak and mahogany lapstrake showpiece. Nor would I recommend something like that even if he did as a first boat.

What he IS going to find in the Portland Metropolitan area is a 14'-16' fiberglass closed bow runabout, made in about 1973 with a tired 40hp Johnson on the back. It will have a soft transom, some creative wiring, faded seats and a tire with a slow leak on the trailer. Because, around here, that's as common as fleas on a dog.

I'm not even going to get into the 'glass vs wood debate. But I will say that I have owned, restored or built 4 wooden boats (not counting dinghies, canoes or anything under 12') and I can assure you, I know what I'm talking about as far as the maintenance and upkeep of a wooden boat.

-JP

[seaweb11]

My advice to Paul was to be taken within the constraints of what he was asking for: First boat, under $1000.

Within those parameters he is NOT going to find any motor newer than 1980 or a restored oak and mahogany lapstrake showpiece. Nor would I recommend something like that even if he did as a first boat.

What he IS going to find in the Portland Metropolitan area is a 14'-16' fiberglass closed bow runabout, made in about 1973 with a tired 40hp Johnson on the back. It will have a soft transom, some creative wiring, faded seats and a tire with a slow leak on the trailer. Because, around here, that's as common as fleas on a dog.

I'm not even going to get into the 'glass vs wood debate. But I will say that I have owned, restored or built 4 wooden boats (not counting dinghies, canoes or anything under 12') and I can assure you, I know what I'm talking about as far as the maintenance and upkeep of a wooden boat.

-JP

+1

[Retro Rocket]

But UV makes fiberglass brittle in time.

I work with resins and apoxy's and for the last 10 years or more most of these products can now be bought with UV inhibitors, when my little boat is finished, UV will be the last of my problems because the sun will NEVER effect the integrity of the glass, older boats are different.

Mick

[333]

Never is an awfully long time, Mick.

[Retro Rocket]

It sure is but with the industrial epoxy paint i am using you would need a nuclear attack to get through the stuff....

Mick

[333]

And also, it doesn't make good business sense to make a product that lasts forever.

[Retro Rocket]

And also, it doesn't make good business sense to make a product that lasts forever.

Thats an absolute given these days even though we have the technology to do so..

Mick

[paulages]

ok, a few more i'd like opinions about...

first, this one is smaller and seems a little friendlier to a beach landing, which would be great for camping:

http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/boa/1865028395.html

this one looks like it might be worth checking out, but the ad is lacking in info:

http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/boa/1869200490.html

ok, stupid question... say i got a boat like the searay or the norris, how close can i safely get to shore if i was camping and wanting to boat into the site? obviously i would want to avoid large rocks, but assuming there is a sandy shore?

[pdxPope]

I like the 20-footer. More room, more freeboard (height of the sides above the waterline); you can take rougher seas. There is no substitute for size when you are on the water. Although for a first boat, I wouldn't recommend much bigger than 20'.

Either one would be fine to beach on a sandy shore.

However, remember that as waves and/or current go by it will rock the boat....

Sandy shore+steady rocking+fiberglass (or wood, sheesh!)= boat parked on low-speed belt sander.

A few hours, not a problem. But if you were going to camp overnight I would recommend either (a) anchoring it a little way off shore or (b) pull it up to the point that the boat doesn't move too much. You don't have to go too far out in the water to be safe. Knee deep should be OK.

-JP