Author Topic: What's the realistic MPG for CB550?  (Read 17679 times)

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Offline Raef

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Re: What's the realistic MPG for CB550?
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2010, 05:14:26 am »
I have a 76 550 f, I had a carb plug up on a trip last year and burnt a cyl so installed a 74 550 k motor I was building for a project.

I have just started putting some big miles on it and I have only been getting about 32 mpg. the motor had 13,000. we rebuild the topend having the head ported, the exhaust ports opened up to match the gaskets and intakes matched to the head, the valves and guides checked.  the carbs have done and the plugs all look the same, slightly black around the base going sandy brown the closer you get to the tip.  ?

I ride it pretty hard, I am currently checking on the riding styles and shift points. the bike runs really good and clean with no flat spots, no smoke and uses no oil that I can tell.

The MPG is not that big of a deal to me except 32mpg don't get me much range.


Mark

Offline Raef

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Re: What's the realistic MPG for CB550?
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2010, 05:43:49 am »
I wonder, how much of the wild deviation in reported MPG is caused by speed-o inaccuracies.

Offline JBMorse

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Re: What's the realistic MPG for CB550?
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2010, 06:05:54 am »
This summer I rode my CB500/4 out west and back.  It was fully loaded w/girlfriend and plenty of luggage (we camped the whole way).  Usually we avoided highways in favor of 50mph secondary roads.  The bike has a 4-2 exhaust and UNI 4055 air filter, otherwise completely stock engine and intake system.  Here are some mileage observations:
-Normal riding in the low country would get a consistent 40 mpg even if I occasionally flogged it.
-Running up and down the blue ridge parkway I still got an even 40mpg
-Further West, on bigger open highways, mileage suffered.  Maintaining 70mph (this was really working it with all that load) brought the mileage down to ~37 mpg
-The Rockies and Colorado Plateau, bike got around 33-35, sometimes dipping below.  It was breathing hard up there.
-Back home, near sea level, sans luggage but w/girlfriend, bike gets about 42-45 depending on what types of roads we're on (mostly stick to small roads)

As far as ethanol content, we went to gas stations with 10%, 15%, no % ethanol and I honestly did not detect a difference in mpg or the way the bike ran. 
1971 CB500K

Offline supersports400

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Re: What's the realistic MPG for CB550?
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2010, 07:33:24 am »
Hi,

For a calculation of the mpg (miles / gallon), means that there are two parameters to be measured, miles and gallons.


First the miles :

Miles is measured by the odometer, and is coupled to the speedometer. The speedometer is coupled to a cable, and with a few gears it's coupled to the wheel. The wheel can be seen as a gear and the opposite gear is the road itself.

It seems simple, but when using another tyre, your reduction ratio has changed, so does you measured speed, and so does your odometer. So I have determined that the distance measurement in itself is relative, and can hardly being compared to other bikes.

The best way to determine the distance is to measure it absolute, but a GPS is very practical too and accurate enough.



Then the gallons :

Let's assume that the petrol station is well calibrated, because if it isn't, one should measure the volume yourself.
Patrol is not only highly flammable, but also vaporizing quickly, especially the lighter molecules. The fast vaporizing molecules are also the highest energetic molecules, so it's important to use fresh gas for the test.

It is impossible to measure the volume of petrol by eye in one measurement in the gas tank.  You never know if the bike is in the same position (straight, angled etc). The best way to measure is to do it more often, and determine an average over let’s say 10 times filling you gas tank with at least more than 75 % of the gas tank volume. This will reduce the influence of mistakes. Make sure the gas is used by the engine, and not leaking out of bad tubes or petcocks.

If the above is done, then the calculation is precisely enough isn’t it ?

But the engine isn’t running on gas only, it runs on a mixture of air and gas. Let’s  exclude all the parameters of the carbs and engine itself, there’s still a factor of importance, and that the mass of the air.

The fuel / air ratio is a mass ratio. Since the mass of the gas can be seen as fixed, the  mass of the air is not. The mass of a gallon air differs with temperature and height, and with the amount of moisture. So the fuel mass ration is depending on temperature, height and moisture.

As one sees the engine as a mixture pump, the amount of mixture is determined by the pump efficiency and the rpm rate.

Let’s say that the pump efficiency is to be measured, then the rpm is an important factor to keep in mind while comparing measurements.

And hence using the choke, short distance riding, long distance riding, riding in winter,  summer, autumn, or spring, sea level or mountains.

But the pump efficiency  isn’t to be measured, it’s the amount of energy per stroke per cylinder that determines the output of the crank, and the rear wheel. There are four cylinders, so the efficiency of one cylinder can be destroyed by its neighbor (so it’s important to synchronize everything). Then there’s wind, internal friction (for example bearings), the oil you used the weight of the rider and many, many, more.

So before concluding anything on mpg, be aware that these factors are counting.

So, is it impossible to determine a good and reliable mpg  and compare these figures between  people with the same bikes ?

No, as long as these figures are interpreted correctly, and that means that differences in mpg between two equal bikes can be caused by many factors, and most of them are not related to combustion efficiency.

I'm a physics engineer, so I’m imperialized to see things in a simple way (can’t help it).

Jensen
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 07:35:48 am by jensen »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: What's the realistic MPG for CB550?
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2010, 09:06:38 am »
the plugs all look the same, slightly black around the base going sandy brown the closer you get to the tip. 
Light tan on the insulator and white near the tip is a better (and leaner) indication.  The base circle where the strap attaches should always be black on these air cooled motors.  Hopefully you are using D7 plugs. (Kinda important info for a fine tuning MPG query)  You could also post pics of your plug deposits.

I ride it pretty hard, I am currently checking on the riding styles and shift points. 
This has got to be a factor.  What do you suppose your MPG would be if you never got out of first gear, and ran at red line all the time?
BTW, your description sounds about the same as the way I drive these bikes.

The MPG is not that big of a deal to me except 32mpg don't get me much range.

I wouldn't be happy with 32 MPG either.
Rather surprises me that you failed to inform us about the air filter type/age and exhaust type/ age.  Both these are major factors in engine fuel usage/requirements, which the carbs have no way to automatically compensate.
It is also rather important to know how the carbs are set up/adjusted for the changes made to induction and exhaust.

Given we are blind to the actual configuration of your bike, and assuming your air filter breathes as new and you are disinclined to change the exhausts,  I would check (recheck) the fuel level level the float bowls.  If found to be just below the bowl gasket base, I would lower the fuel level a mm or two, and drive for effect.

But then, it is also possible you have the slide needle in the wrong position or other carb settings that allow the carbs to be sloppy, albeit generally pleasant for driving about.

Another question.  Do you routinely do a stationary warm up with choke on or do you start up and drive away for warm up on the go?
(You could run through a whole tank of gas in your driveway and not even get 1 MPG.)

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline Raef

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Re: What's the realistic MPG for CB550?
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2010, 09:54:26 am »
Hey TT

I never let the bike sit and warm up, start and go. For exhaust it has the stock 4 into 1 with a high flo Harley muffler replacing the stock one.

On the intake side in has the stock air box but only a screen and piece foam for a filter, th slo jets are 40 and the mains are drilled to 120 with the slide needles in the lowest position. The plugs are champion ra8hc, it has new points the timing and Valves have been set it has dyna coils and the hondaman box.

Before the reaction, the jet size finalized after several plug chops showing lean on top
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 09:57:02 am by raef »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: What's the realistic MPG for CB550?
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2010, 10:17:13 am »
I think you just answered your own question as to why the MPG is dismal.
I know this is going to sound harsh.  But, I'm just going to state how I see it, bluntly, as I have an appointment to get to.  Invoke hard skin, now.

Yes, you had to open up the main when you reduced back pressure.  Stock is#98, but 120 was way too much.  105, maybe 110 really should be all that's needed.  At any rate, drilled jets have a poor flow rate and the inlet and outlet ramps were destroyed during drilling.
You compensated for that by lowering the needles (What's the needle number?)  They should probably be clipped in the 4th position from the top.

The air filter flow is a big question mark.  I've no idea what kind of pressure drop it offers and  variable air flows.
Why not use a UNI NU-4055?  It's characteristics are fairly well known.

The pilot jet is probably too rich, but that is altered by the air bleed screw, which has an unknown setting.

With the big main and the big pilot jet, I think your low MPG is easily understood.  If you put it on a dyno, the fuel map would probably show a lean mid range throttle position and the idle and mid positions way rich. (My guess, anyway)

My stock F models get about 50 MPG.  I'm confident your changes have directly caused the poor MPG you presently get.

No offense meant.  That's just how I see it.

Cheers,






Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline crazypj

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Re: What's the realistic MPG for CB550?
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2010, 10:21:06 am »
My 74 Cb550 with stock exhaust and a Uni NU4055 air filter got 45 mpg or better.  And that's with a full Vetter Windjammer fairing on it.

The rest of my stock configured 550s get 45 or better, too.  I think the F models actually get better mileage.  But, I haven't actually measured it in a long while.



 I had my 77 CB550f down to 23mpg (sustained 90~110)
Best I ever got was 47mpg
 Doing 591cc kit, cam, K&N, and messing with carbs got me a regular 41mpg (and extra 20 mph top end  ;D)
 I did have Dunlop TT100 4.10x19 most of the time which being somewhat larger diameter than stock should have slowed speedo down a bit (on WM3 rim) and made figures more realistic?
 1978 F2 was a little better so Honda changed something?
 K3 with different carbs would get 55~60 mpg (but took a lot of warming up)

 As TT says, 120 is too rich, even a 110 is probably too big.
 I would start at 105~107.5 (if they are still available?) for a more or less stock motor, drop needle and raise float height 1mm.
 Stock pilot jet should be fine with air screw ~2 turns out
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 10:28:03 am by crazypj »
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Offline Raef

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Re: What's the realistic MPG for CB550?
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2010, 10:25:10 am »
TT said

"No offense meant.  That's just how I see it."

many asking opinions are just looking for an accomplice

Non taken, the jets were beveled and polished, i want to get it on a dyno
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 11:17:52 am by raef »

Offline Raef

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Re: What's the realistic MPG for CB550?
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2010, 11:32:06 am »
I've been messing with this for along time at this point it is the best running 550 I have ridden. It all started with wanting to run pods, I never did get any bottom end with the pods so the air box went back in I will lilly go with a k&n but up to this point it has been performance experiment. I am now very happy with the way it runs now for fine tune.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: What's the realistic MPG for CB550?
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2010, 01:09:20 pm »
The Cb550 never has any "bottom end".  The cam doesn't wake up the engine 'til you get above 3500-4000 RPM.  (Part of the reason for the 9200 red line.)

I wonder if you mean "throttle response".  Normally, the engine will wheeze if you make sudden throttle changes from idle and use more than 1/2 total throttle travel.  If you make the pilot circuit over rich, you can snap the throttle farther and get smooth throttle transition.  But, that has a tendency to soot up the plugs.  ...Unless you make the mid-range throttle position lean to get the plugs clean again.

One thing almost universally true.  If you modify the engine to make more power...and use it...it consumes more energy doing so.  Since the engine isn't but 20% efficient at converting the fuel energy to useful power, up-ing engine power has a disproportionate effect on energy consumption or MPG.

BTW, you do know that the stock pilots were #38s right?

I'm going to try and dredge up a drawing program (and learn to use it) to show why drilled jets can't function as well as made to size jets.
Here is a verbal description.

If you look at only one side of the jet tube, you see a rounded off mountain shape where the orifice is placed within it.
Drilling a jet is like putting a plateau on the mountain top.  The orifice becomes more like a tunnel than brief restriction.
In fluid dynamics, the tunnel behaves more like a stepped transition in as much as eddy currents than form due to each transition in tube/tunnel diameter.

A properly shaped jet has a shaped hump where the fluid can flow up and over the mountain without any need to pressure equalize in a tunnel placed in the path.

The complication is that the eddies formed during mismatched fluid diameter conduits vary with the speed traversing the transitions.
At some speeds, usually low, laminar flow can be maintained. When the speeds increase, eddies can form, and then diminish at even higher speeds.  The flow rate gets rather unpredictable as the eddies induce drag on the fluid flow which changes the speed for a given pressure differential across the jet tube as a whole.

I know...a drawing would be helpful.  ::)

Cheers,







Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline Raef

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Re: What's the realistic MPG for CB550?
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2010, 02:14:07 pm »
I understand what your saying, there is a hump in the middle and the fuel accelerates over the radius
I wonder if you mean "throttle response"

 you were correct in my pour use of words, i was typing on my phone, very pour throttle response from idol to mid range, stumbling all over itself.

I am just playing, and an education gets expensive and what is the point anyway  if you just buy everything.

it is just running so good ;D.....from idol to 9500 i'm goning to have to do somthing with the clutch, and buy the way short shifting and and slowing down did not help 32.5mpg

Got a foot ball game to go to, daughters first collage football game (she is not playing she is a  cheerleader)

I do appreciate your knowledge, input and Patience.

Mark

Offline Raef

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Re: What's the realistic MPG for CB550?
« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2010, 02:23:44 pm »
BTW, you do know that the stock pilots were #38s right?


022a's had #40's

I had factory 105's in it and the plugs burnt white pretty quickly.

Offline Kframe

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Re: What's the realistic MPG for CB550?
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2010, 03:28:54 pm »
Thanks for the continued replies, I'm learning a lot reading about the theory and mechanics of jetting.
:)
-K
2007 Triumph Bonneville T100, ARK'd, Pods, TOR's, Napoleon's, Innovate G5 Air/Fuel Gauge, Ignition Relocation by D9, Stebel Nautilus, Avon Roadriders
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Offline wardenerd

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Re: What's the realistic MPG for CB550?
« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2010, 03:44:07 pm »
my 77 f model gets about 33 in town but more like 50 on a trip at 60-65 MPH.  I horse mine around pretty good in town but its a hoot to ride.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: What's the realistic MPG for CB550?
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2010, 05:24:03 pm »
BTW, you do know that the stock pilots were #38s right?


022a's had #40's

I had factory 105's in it and the plugs burnt white pretty quickly.

 I believe you are mistaken.
I think a few of the early Cb550Ks may have used up the remaining stock of 40s left over from Cb500 627B carb production.  I have one set of 022a carbs that have #40.  But only one set.  All the others I've opened (10-20) had #38 pilot jets.  They were clearly meant to have #38 pilots.  And most certainly all the F models had that for the pilot circuit.
No production CB550 carbs had 105 mains.  The F model had #98 for that stock muffler type.  All the rest had #100s for the 4 into 4.  The PD carbs were of a different design, venturi shape, and had #90 mains.

The main jet dominates mixture with the throttle in the 3/4 to full position.  The midrange mix is dominated/adjusted with the slide needles.

See below, a page from a Honda publication about stock carb jets and settings.

Anyway, I think you now know why your MPG is so low.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Raef

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Re: What's the realistic MPG for CB550?
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2010, 06:02:52 pm »
Factory made as in not drilled by me, I have a set of 022a carbs on the bike now, when I disassembled them they had the 40's in them did they come that way ?

I have 2 sets of 627's both had 40's one had 100'mains and one had the 105's installed.

Who knows what you will find when you open a 40 year old package

http://www.sohc4.net/index.php?q=content/cb500550-carb-id-and-specs
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 08:03:31 pm by raef »

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: What's the realistic MPG for CB550?
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2010, 09:15:04 pm »
Raef,
You presume that someone who owned the bike previous did not change the jets with a rebuild kit. The K&L kits have the jets you mention in them and it would be easy to have it happen.

David
P.S. hope the football game went well
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline Raef

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Re: What's the realistic MPG for CB550?
« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2010, 06:17:35 am »
Raef,
You presume that someone who owned the bike previous did not change the jets with a rebuild kit. The K&L kits have the jets you mention in them and it would be easy to have it happen.

David
P.S. hope the football game went well
no, I restore stuff for a living, I would never presume that something is as it should be just because that's the way it is.

The bike we are talking about should have had 069 carbs on it but when I got it, almost 10 years ago. it had 627's on it and they were still on it when I dug it out of the back of the garage and started riding it in 08.

The bike currently has a 74 K motor from a project bike i was working on, I bought this bike in 96 rode it bone stock till 2002, the motor and carbs had some pretty extensive work done to the top end. but it still has the original set of carb which are 022a they had #40's in them and this chart (http://www.sohc4.net/index.php?q=content/cb500550-carb-id-and-specs) says that is correct.
 I am guilty of under typing, especially when I am using my phone to do it.

Game went great Ball state won, no injury's

Mark
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 07:16:06 am by raef »

Offline bender01

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Re: What's the realistic MPG for CB550?
« Reply #44 on: September 03, 2010, 09:31:49 am »
Mine 75 550k is stock, in tune,and runs awesome.Just turned 14,500 miles. I do warm it up a minute or so and I get 34-36 mpg. I travel 17 miles one way to work.  I weigh 200 with a backrest and a Backpack catching wind.Bearings are all balls. I dont baby it.. At least not in public.
75 550 K1
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So, the strategy is to lie to people you are asking for help?

I think I'll be busy going for a ride.

Good luck!
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Offline L.A. Nomad........

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Re: What's the realistic MPG for CB550?
« Reply #45 on: September 03, 2010, 10:02:03 am »
I've been riding my 1976 Cb550 to work for 3 year, 54miles round trip. Depending on the state of tune.. I average 30-something miles a gallon. I mostly ride freeway miles, heavy traffic always going home...

In the past I thought my round trip mileage was 44miles.. I just Googled it again!

I've gone through two different motors, the original motor reached 90,000 miles before I was swiped by a truck going to work. On a trip from L.A. to San Francisco, I averaged close to 90 miles a full tank, my bike has 4-4 stock exhausts and aftermarket UNI box replacement.

I'd pull over every 75 miles to refill, there would always be 1' 1/2  of fuel left in my tank.

Yeah, Cb550 are gas guzzlers compared to modern 2-wheelers!

L.A. Nomad


 
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: What's the realistic MPG for CB550?
« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2010, 10:34:26 am »
but it still has the original set of carb which are 022a they had #40's in them and this chart (http://www.sohc4.net/index.php?q=content/cb500550-carb-id-and-specs) says that is correct.

I'm the source of data for that chart.  The #40 data came from me.  I acquired a 74 CB550 in 1975.  It was totally stock but wrecked with 1500 miles on it.  It had 022a carbs and #40s as pilots.  The bike (or the carbs) were early production for the 550 model and it lives and was purchased at sea level.

I put #40 in the chart because my bike, which I believed to be original, had them.  Every other info source from Honda says they should have been #38.  And, every other CB550 carb set (beside the PD style) has had #38 in them. 

If you wish to believe that #40 is the correct pilot for your bike, well, you could suffer from worse delusions.

It is certainly not the >sole< reason for your bike's poor MPG, as it seems like the air bleed screw can compensate for some pilot jet size variance.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline buffalogt750

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Re: What's the realistic MPG for CB550?
« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2010, 11:08:29 am »
I commute often on my 1976 CB550K. 32 mile round trip, half city, half highway. Bike has a 650 cam, pods, Alphabet 4 into 1 header, Dyna 5 ohm coils with stock points, Accel plug wires with non resistor caps, DR7EA plugs, 115 main jets with all other carb settings stock. Engine has 18,000 miles on it. I weigh 200 pounds. I use 87 octane E10 gas and check MPG almost every time I fill up.  Always get from 40 to 42 MPG.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 01:18:01 pm by buffalogt750 »
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Offline sniper1

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Re: What's the realistic MPG for CB550?
« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2010, 11:47:01 am »
My '77 550 gets right at 50 mpg. It is all stock. That really surprised me when I did my first fillups at about 100 miles and took exactly 2 gallons.

Offline Raef

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Re: What's the realistic MPG for CB550?
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2010, 12:48:45 pm »
 I don't have any delusions about stock jet sizes, just miss informed I guess. It don't even matter what was stock as the motor is not stock, exhaust and air box are not stock.

if anything the plug chops and power curve are showing lean off of the idol curcit.

this pic is after about 1000 mile in current configuration

I know it's a crappy cell phone pic, but right now its whats available