Author Topic: Leaky head, just changed gaskets in the fall...where did I go wrong???  (Read 3225 times)

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Offline Lumbee

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...I"m pist.  I just changed my head/base gasket (and valve seals) in the fall.  Now its wetting my pants leg again.   >:(  The oil does not seem to be coming from the head, although I'm not sure on that.  Its hard to tell because we'r talking a 78F with the black motor.  I competely cleaned the bottom of the head/top of the cylinders, but no gasket sealer.  Is it a futal effort to have a non leaking head w/o sealer?  Is it possible the leak is coming from somewhere else.  I thought I read once someone said something about a seal around the plugs?  Any/all suggestions welcome...

...also re: my other post on taking a long trip.  The leaky oil shouldn't stop me from taking my 400mile trip this weekend, right?  I'm sure its not bad enough that I'm losing any appreciable amount of oil.
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Offline scondon

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    Hey Lumbee, if it's any consolation, I am on what seems like a never ending quest to build a "non-leaky" motor. The first attempt was just to replace all the gaskets, after meticulously cleaning all mating surfaces. That attempt worked for the first 800 miles before oil began weeping from all the old spots, just at a lesser rate than before. Next attempt was on a complete top-end rebuild, The head was decked and all "questionable" threads were helicoiled for torquing purposes. I read up on "torguing" techniques and gave it my best shot. That engine began weeping at the head after 1,500 miles or so. The latest engine has APE heavy duty cylinder studs, I've applied YAMAHBOND #4 to the 6 pucks under the came towers and to the head gasket around each of the 8 oil galleys. So far so good but only 500 miles on the engine.

     Clean off the engine with Simple Green and water, then go for a 20 mile ride. It should be easy to trace the source of your leak, even with the black motor. On my engines, the oil galleys were the most common offenders, followed by tach cable seal and tappet cover seals. The last two are easy to replace.

     I've taken several 600 mile trips with the leaky motors and had no problems, aside from oily trousers. I checked the oil every other gas stop to determine if I was losing any. In the heat of the Summer in Central California I had to add 1/2 quart by thye time I returned home.
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theunrulychef

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I'm sure you've probably seen this article  before, which was apparently written by Old Fart. The first part describes how to find the leak.  You clean it really well & spray the suspect areas with foot powder.   When run, the foot powder will show where the leaks is.  Who knows, you may get lucky & it's only the tach seal or something.

That is a real bummer though.  Did you make sure both the block & head surfaces were perfectly flat before putting it all back together / did you do any machining?

-Jay in Philly

Offline Lumbee

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...thanx unruly...havn't seen that article...I'll check it out...

...yep, cleaned both sides with a wire wheel on my drill...no machining though...
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WiredForStereo

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Don't let me put you off by talking about synthetic oil, but since I put 10w40 Amsoil motorcycle oil in my CB650, the oil weeps out the side of the head have stopped.  Before I put it in, I could see the head gasket get oily when running the engine as the oil seeped through.  After I put the Amsoil in, it was about a day and the leaking stopped, now the gasket looks almost normal.  And the bike runs great.

Offline CB750F2

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G/Day. I also have a 78 F2. I have no oil leaks coming from the motor but I did have an oil lieak on the RH front fork which resulted in oil blowing back on to the valve cover and into the fins of the head. The previous replies seem to have covered all of the other causes. Pat from Australia.
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Offline MRieck

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 I think Sean hit the nail on the head. First, you need flat surfaces. Heavy duty studs allow more clamping and less stretch. Some sealer around the areas he mentioned goes a long way. CFM or graphite head gaskets seal better also. I have a procedure for installing the studs which has worked very well on different engines.
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Offline TwoTired

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I have a procedure for installing the studs which has worked very well on different engines.

You're such a tease...
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

72cafe

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Yeah machining is key. At least it is on a Toyota engine-Hence my prev. post about tolerances of max. material to be taken off of the head and block, to which i received no reply.

what about the head gasket that comes with the Wiseco kit? I know it's graphite. anyone had one of these poop the bed on them?

Offline MRieck

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Yeah machining is key. At least it is on a Toyota engine-Hence my prev. post about tolerances of max. material to be taken off of the head and block, to which i received no reply.

what about the head gasket that comes with the Wiseco kit? I know it's graphite. anyone had one of these poop the bed on them?
Yes but it wasn't an oil leak problem.
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Leaky head, just changed gaskets in the fall...where did I go wrong???
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2006, 05:53:31 PM »
I have a procedure for installing the studs which has worked very well on different engines.

You're such a tease...
God no 2 Tired, I'm easy. ;)  ;D It involves red loctiting to the upper case with mocking the cylinder and head up.
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Offline scondon

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Re: Leaky head, just changed gaskets in the fall...where did I go wrong???
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2006, 06:04:04 PM »
what about the head gasket that comes with the Wiseco kit? I know it's graphite. anyone had one of these poop the bed on them?

    "poop the bed..." hahaha, I love it :D  My latest engine has the Wiseco 836 and Cometic gasket that comes with it. I used the stock cylinder studs, decked the head (.012"? Mike?), did not use any sealer compounds, and it started to weep after 1,500 miles. Hence the APE studs and YAMABOND #4 mentioned above. So far so good.

   I think the max combined amount to remove from cylinder and head is around .020", depending on which cam you intend to use. A slotted cam sprocket is suggested to bring your cam back to proper timing. I'm only quoting (.020") what I was told when putting my engine together and I don't trust my memory, nor should you :)  Cometic does sell base gaskets of varying thickness should you want to gain a smidge more valve clearance, in the event you remove too much material from head/cylinder.
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Leaky head, just changed gaskets in the fall...where did I go wrong???
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2006, 06:14:35 PM »
what about the head gasket that comes with the Wiseco kit? I know it's graphite. anyone had one of these poop the bed on them?

    "poop the bed..." hahaha, I love it :D  My latest engine has the Wiseco 836 and Cometic gasket that comes with it. I used the stock cylinder studs, decked the head (.012"? Mike?), did not use any sealer compounds, and it started to weep after 1,500 miles. Hence the APE studs and YAMABOND #4 mentioned above. So far so good.

   I think the max combined amount to remove from cylinder and head is around .020", depending on which cam you intend to use. A slotted cam sprocket is suggested to bring your cam back to proper timing. I'm only quoting (.020") what I was told when putting my engine together and I don't trust my memory, nor should you :)  Cometic does sell base gaskets of varying thickness should you want to gain a smidge more valve clearance, in the event you remove too much material from head/cylinder.
Around .012 Sean. The original shop had cleaned it up but it needed some more. Now the last head you got...... ;)  The slotted sprocket is a good idea no matter what you take off- it gives you the power to set your cam exactly where you want it. As to knowing where you want it...that's another matter all together. My head and cylinder have over .065 off total.
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Offline scondon

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Re: Leaky head, just changed gaskets in the fall...where did I go wrong???
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2006, 06:32:41 PM »
  Around .012 Sean. The original shop had cleaned it up but it needed some more. Now the last head you got...... ;) The slotted sprocket is a good idea no matter what you take off- it gives you the power to set your cam exactly where you want it. As to knowing where you want it...that's another matter all together. My head and cylinder have over .065 off total.

  Damn, .065. That's inches, right?  What does that add to your compression? Actually, don't answer that. Don't give me any more ideas  :D :D :D
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Offline ofreen

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Re: Leaky head, just changed gaskets in the fall...where did I go wrong???
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2006, 10:08:20 PM »
...yep, cleaned both sides with a wire wheel on my drill...

Hmmmm....
Greg
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Leaky head, just changed gaskets in the fall...where did I go wrong???
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2006, 10:55:37 AM »
...yep, cleaned both sides with a wire wheel on my drill...

Hmmmm....

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, too.  A steel wire wheel on cast iron- sure.  On a soft aluminum machined surface, it seems there would be some aluminum lost and there goes any precision smooth surface fit and fine scratches for oil to traverse.   :-\

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline MRieck

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Re: Leaky head, just changed gaskets in the fall...where did I go wrong???
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2006, 12:19:31 PM »
...yep, cleaned both sides with a wire wheel on my drill...

Hmmmm....

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, too.  A steel wire wheel on cast iron- sure.  On a soft aluminum machined surface, it seems there would be some aluminum lost and there goes any precision smooth surface fit and fine scratches for oil to traverse.   :-\

Cheers,
I missed that part. Definitely could be the cause. You'd really see if it was the problem once you start to mill it as the low spots would really stand out.
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Offline ofreen

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Re: Leaky head, just changed gaskets in the fall...where did I go wrong???
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2006, 12:28:40 PM »
There was a 750F head on Ebay a week or two ago that appeared to have been assaulted with a wire wheel.  A lot of sharp edges rounded off.
Greg
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supersport_CB400F

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Re: Leaky head, just changed gaskets in the fall...where did I go wrong???
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2006, 12:45:55 PM »
He’s gone for a long ride…..I hope he took plenty of oil with him  :o

Offline Lumbee

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Re: Leaky head, just changed gaskets in the fall...where did I go wrong???
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2006, 12:56:57 PM »
Quote
He’s gone for a long ride…..I hope he took plenty of oil with him 

...Just added 2 quarts to the oil bag   ::)  But as per my other post, it all seems to be coming from the oil pan, or somewhere other than the head...

Quote
...yep, cleaned both sides with a wire wheel on my drill...

...in my defense this is a pretty mild wheel, and I didn't hit the whole head just the areas that had sealer caked on.  Couldn't have taken much more than a thousands of an inch...that being said I don't enough experience to know if I took more off than I should...
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Offline scondon

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Re: Leaky head, just changed gaskets in the fall...where did I go wrong???
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2006, 06:42:10 PM »

...Just added 2 quarts to the oil bag ::) But as per my other post, it all seems to be coming from the oil pan, or somewhere other than the head...


   Yikes, that is a bit of oil for a 400 mile ride. If it's not leaking on your fins and your not blowing a trail of smoke then I'd check:

crankcase breather hose attached to oil reservoir

Oil filter housing sealing properly

oil pan cracked at drain plug or crush washer needs replacing

two part seal for wires leading from alternator

    These are all leaks I've had that ended up dripping from the oil pan
« Last Edit: March 04, 2006, 06:49:34 PM by scondon »
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nunnik6

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Re: Leaky head, just changed gaskets in the fall...where did I go wrong???
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2006, 07:39:49 PM »
Ive got the same problem, lumbee, but on an early '70 750... That and a nice surprise when I uncovered it a few weeks ago; found out that im leaking oil near the chain and down the kickstand. Got to get my '74 running before tearing my '70 apart... Good luck!

Offline Jay B

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Re: Leaky head, just changed gaskets in the fall...where did I go wrong???
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2006, 05:30:59 PM »
After a few hundred miles my 350f is starting to weep from the right front of the head, by the oil jet. I've never used any type of sealant on a head gasket before. Is there any made that's good for that?
Jay
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Williamsd

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Re: Leaky head, just changed gaskets in the fall...where did I go wrong???
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2006, 11:33:55 AM »
I had the oily pantleg problem.  After stripping down the engine I found evidence that the headgasket was leaking into the camchain passage.  This pressurized the crankcase and pushed the oil out the tappet covers.  To ensure that I got a clean and flat mating surface on the head I wet-sanded the surface with oil and a small block of hardwood.  It has been tight and dry for 5,000 miles.