Author Topic: Reliability of bikes with Wiseco forged pistons and 836cc kit  (Read 5168 times)

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Offline zaskar

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Reliability of bikes with Wiseco forged pistons and 836cc kit
« on: August 22, 2010, 09:56:38 PM »
I am looking at a CB750 with Wiseco forged pistons and 836cc kit. Can anyone comment on whether these kits impact on the reliability of the bikes? Call me boring but I have always been one to keep things relatively standard and am concerned that the mods lead to unreliability in the long run.

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Reliability of bikes with Wiseco forged pistons and 836cc kit
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2010, 10:07:51 PM »
When yer done looking at it and actually have it, ask Q's.... nobody can deciede for ya... or maybe other folks can, dont know ???
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Reliability of bikes with Wiseco forged pistons and 836cc kit
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2010, 10:18:04 PM »
With 836 engines, it's often all about HOW they were built. I have seen many done well, with proper piston clearances (0.0010" to 0.0012") and they last a long time if the oil is changed often. If the clearance was too large (0.0020" or more to start), then the pistons run quite hot and cause issues and oil leaks in relatively fewer miles.

I've even seen some clearanced at 0.0040" to start, with corresponding disastrous results.  :(

Unfortunately, there's no telling what any given engine has unless it is torn down and actually measured.  :-\
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Reliability of bikes with Wiseco forged pistons and 836cc kit
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2010, 10:42:25 PM »
Like HM says, the Wiseco stuff is fine, the unknown quantity is the quality of the rebore required to install them. Obviously the seller won't be too happy with you stripping the engine down to check it, but a compression test would go a long way to reassuring you that all's well. Cheers, Terry. ;D
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Offline 754

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Re: Reliability of bikes with Wiseco forged pistons and 836cc kit
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2010, 11:06:51 PM »
 If  you can wear one out in a few seasons, you are doing something most of us are not doing...
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Offline zaskar

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Re: Reliability of bikes with Wiseco forged pistons and 836cc kit
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2010, 02:27:14 AM »
Thanks for the advice guys. So it sounds like it's a perfectly fine thing to do to your ride. Just needs to be done the right way.

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Reliability of bikes with Wiseco forged pistons and 836cc kit
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2010, 04:18:30 AM »
If  you can wear one out in a few seasons, you are doing something most of us are not doing...

Riding it? ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline zaskar

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Re: Reliability of bikes with Wiseco forged pistons and 836cc kit
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2010, 04:58:45 AM »
Well I bought it, getting it picked up in a week! so riding it soon  ;D

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Reliability of bikes with Wiseco forged pistons and 836cc kit
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2010, 05:00:39 AM »
Well done mate, have fun!  ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Reliability of bikes with Wiseco forged pistons and 836cc kit
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2010, 05:03:33 AM »
Enjoy the new ride - you'll not get any more problems with the 836 than standard % -wise, Wiseco's are good gear  ;)
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Offline Doctor_D

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Re: Reliability of bikes with Wiseco forged pistons and 836cc kit
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2010, 07:49:15 AM »
With 836 engines, it's often all about HOW they were built. I have seen many done well, with proper piston clearances (0.0010" to 0.0012") and they last a long time if the oil is changed often. If the clearance was too large (0.0020" or more to start), then the pistons run quite hot and cause issues and oil leaks in relatively fewer miles.

Now I'm curious, as I've always gone with .001/1" of bore for forged pistons in air-cooled motors. For instance, I run 0.003 clearance for my JE's in my Norton with a 73.67mm bore.

Why tighter clearances here? Have I been using the wrong rule-of-thumb all these years?
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Offline 754

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Re: Reliability of bikes with Wiseco forged pistons and 836cc kit
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2010, 08:15:29 AM »
Yes that used to be what many went by.I used to sell forged pistons.

 I think piston alloys changed allowing tighter clearances.

 But I have read on here to set them all up tight. I think on older type pistons, I would have a hard time setting them at less clearance, moreso, of it was not going to have a long run-in
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It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Jim F

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Re: Reliability of bikes with Wiseco forged pistons and 836cc kit
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2010, 12:38:05 PM »
Well when I built my engine 15 years ago with the Wiseco 836 kit,
I did all the machine work my self.............
honed the cylinders to +.001 over size to each piston (.0005 total clearance)
This was 15 years ago, not a lot of miles, with no problems
The cranking pressure was 178 to 180 PSI per cylinder a couple of years ago

still pulls like a freight train even with my big rear end on it

good luck

Jim
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Reliability of bikes with Wiseco forged pistons and 836cc kit
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2010, 09:22:45 AM »
In the case of Honda's engines: Sochiro blazed a new path in motorcycle piston design, and became famous for it during the 1960s. It came from his experience with making piston rings for cars before he made bikes, I imagine...

All of these bikes use 0.0008" to 0.0012" clearance on the pistons, regardless of bore. The pistons he had ART make for him included a surface finish that is slightly porous to a depth of about 0.0004"/0.01mm, which holds oil readily and burnishes the skirts to a high sheen in about 500 miles (if the oil is good). This was a cheap method of something better that he did in Honda Racing. Starting in the 1990s sometime, this porous method was augmented with the alternate racing one: today's higher-quality pistons come with micro-grooved skirts of about 0.0002" depth. These function similarly to the porous surfaces, and also allow for bore-matching a little faster. Typical break-in time is about 150 miles on these. The pistons from Z1 Enterprises and Wiesco, among others, show this method. It appears to now be done with CNC machining: the racing pistons of the 1960s had it done by hand and it wasn't always so perfectly even... 

In my experience, the engines that perform best and last longest, running cooler and never using oil, are the ones that started out at 0.0008" clearance. I know of some roadracers who went tighter, at 0.0005", when the cams had more duration and overlap: since they don't see a lot of face loading at low RPM (due to the cams involved) they also don't warp from the pressures: those bikes had no trouble exceeding 14,000 RPM. [Successful] Four bikes used in drag racing, with 900cc and 1000cc pistons and shorter duration cams (for more launch torque) used up to 0.0015" clearances with gas-ported top rings to improve the sealing and heat ransfer into the pistons.

As these engines age and the skirt-to-bore clearance gets bigger, the pistons run hotter because the contact (through the oil) to the cylinders gets less effective. At first, this extra heat swells the piston a little more, making up the difference: after a while (typically at about 0.0020" or more) the pistons don't swell enough to transfer as much heat as they should, and they strat to get too hot. This causes the rings to expand too much, which wears them and the bore more, and their gaps soon grow. This lets oil by, which washes the sides of the pistons unevenly (carbon removal), and the pistons tilt: this action causes even less heat transfer and the system soon fails. This usually occurs at about 0.0030" of clearance or so.

Honda's manuals show 0.0032" as the maximum clearance they allow in this area, but what few folks seem to remember is that this means, "...with cleaned pistons and bores, and only this much clearance in one place of the bore". Since the bores always wear in an uneven oblong shape (as viewed from above or below) with the largest clearance toward the coolest portion of the hole, this is always one spot in a bore. For example, the front outside quadrant of the outer bores, and the middle of the two center ones (toward the camchain tunnel) always show the most gap in a carefully measured hole with lots of miles on it. Even at this clearance, honing and installing new rings gives just about 10,000 miles before oil becomes uncontrollable, and the performance is way down from normal to boot.  ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com