Author Topic: How much worse are Front drum brakes?  (Read 10621 times)

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Offline Flying J

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How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« on: August 24, 2010, 09:12:11 PM »
Im building a vintage norton style cafe out of my cb550. I was toying with the idea of putting on a CB350 front wheel. i have never had a bike with a drum front brake. How much stopping power am i giving up? I think that a Drum would look real cool. Here is my photoshop mock up with and without the drum.


Offline Motoguy23

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2010, 11:55:32 PM »
Hey,

I actually did put a cb350 front wheel onto my CB500 and It does look awesome but you are giving up a lot of stopping power.  You have to be pretty fast with the down shifts and pretty good at controling the rear brake so it doesn't skid on you, which it will, if you have to stop fast.

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2010, 02:07:59 AM »
Its an interesting notion.

Considering how lame the front disk brake is on a CB550 and how strong the rear drum is on the same bike.  I cant see what you would lose.

Try it ...and let us know how it works.

I would change over like a shot for 20% improvement in front brake efficiency.  And it looks great as a bonus.

Offline Kevin400F

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2010, 03:49:46 AM »
I used an early CL450 drum on my track bike for a while.  It worked fine.

Offline schwebel

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2010, 04:00:17 AM »
I have a CL350 cafe with drums all around and it really isn't much worse than my CB500 front disc. I'd say I have about 85% of the braking power. It takes more effort of course,  but I actually like it. Also my 500 squeeks when it feels like it, I have never had a problem with drum brakes. Simple, straight forward design that is easy to troubleshoot. It lets you clean up the bars too. No master cylinder taking up a chunk of space.

Offline Flying J

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2010, 08:27:33 AM »
Ok, thanks for the response. Now for those who converted. Is the 350/450 wheel a direct swap or will it require some spacers to be made?

Offline Motoguy23

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2010, 08:59:54 AM »
You'll need spacers.  The forks are closer together on the 360.
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Offline Gordon

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2010, 09:33:23 AM »
Its an interesting notion.

Considering how lame the front disk brake is on a CB550 and how strong the rear drum is on the same bike.  I cant see what you would lose.


Apples to oranges.  The reason the rear drum brake feels stronger is because it only has to supply a fraction of the stopping power that the front is supplying.   

Offline ken736cc

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2010, 11:01:57 AM »
   
My old BMW daily rider has drum brakes. I made big improvements by changing the stock thin diameter cable with a thicker one. I also had the shoes re lined and the drum turned by Vintage Brakes.
 
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2010, 11:25:01 AM »
The reason why disks became more popular than drum brakes is because of heat dissipation.  Friction makes heat.  And the system better able to shed the heat is the big open air disk.

NASCAR used to have the big cars with drum brakes.  The drums would turn cherry red under heavy braking.  They would put air ducts on the cars to route air onto the drums.  They would also increase the width of the brake pad to 3-4 inches.  Further they would use a ceramic pad so the heat could go inward through them into and out of the brake shoe in that direction instead of only toward the outside of the drum.

Where you need superior cooling it is under heavy braking conditions.  Drum brake have both speed fade and heat fade.  The space between the pad and drum generates a gas expansion that acts like hydroplaning and keeps the pad from full friction contact with the drum surface area.  The result is that drum brakes stop working when you need them the most.

The front disk was put on the front of the SOHC4 because it performs better than a drum brake under heavy use conditions.

Unless you are making a vintage replica bike that originally had a drum up front, or are making a garage queen conversation bike that will NEVER see high speeds/repetitive braking cycles, or actual track conditions, then use at least a single disk brake up front.

If you want it to look like a real racer then use a bigger disk, dual disk, and/or calipers with multiple pistons in them.

It's a matter if you want looks or real real race function.

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Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2010, 01:13:47 PM »
Very much a matter of "perception". I think the retro look of the drum front brake is pretty cool. However YOU may find them lacking in performance.

I, on the other hand, would have no problem with it. I "grew up" on bikes with drums on both ends and they give me the stopping power I expect from them. My 78K was a whole new experiance for me....the first time I really clamped down on that disc I nearly did an endo! :o
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Offline kos

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2010, 03:16:04 PM »
Put on that drum brake and roll with it...just slow down a bit sooner!

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Offline Flying J

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2010, 03:36:55 PM »
Thanks  for the input guys. Lloyd thank you for the informed opinion as always. You hit the nail on the head. Do i want a conversation bike or a race replica? That leaves me torn and ill really have to think about the direction of this build. Initially I was thinking i would build a light weight and fast bike so i bought everything i need for a dual disk set up. But after i got going on the tank, seat and fairing, i was really drawing a lot of inspiration from the old nortons and tritons that usually have an alloy tank with a big fat front drum brake. I am trying to build a conversation bike, something original yet inspired by classic racers. I plan on beefing the motor up just because i can't do all looks without a little more performance. But to be honest this bike is really only going to go on short rides around town and if i take it to shows I doubt i will ride there. Im not going to ever race it and if i was i guess i would do the dual disk but would also do a bunch of other stuff different.

So now that we have all thought about it, lets call this a form over function bike. I can admit it. I want it to be a ridable eye-catching piece of art. So I will keep my eye out for a CB450 drum.
Thanks for all your help sorting this out.

Offline Kevin400F

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2010, 04:10:46 PM »
Harumph....... 

If you're racing, you might find you are faster if aren't on the brakes all the time!!

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2010, 04:37:32 PM »
Well, my experience is that drum brakes are crap compared to discs. I had a Suzuki GT750J with 4LS front drum (the one that all the brit bike racers now put on their old Norton, triumph and BSA "oil distributors") and compared to a CB750 single puck disc, they were rubbish. It's no wonder on the next GT750 model, the GT750K, Suzuki installed twin discs!

And yep, form over function is fine, but why try to emulate a classic british twin with a CB550/4? I'm sure it'll be the subject of many conversations, but most will start with "Why?" Only my opinion of course, and no offence intended, but if it was me, a nice CR replica with twin discs would give you the best of both worlds, form and function! Cheers, Terry. ;D
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Offline Bodi

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2010, 06:23:14 AM »
I've had a few bikes with drum brakes. For street riding I would consider a front drum OK on a 550 but you will want a decent sized unit, the 450 was somewhat lighter but the brake should be OK. The 350 front brake might be too small for a heavier and faster 550.
A properly set up 2LS drum will have close to the same braking ability as the stock 550 single disk. It will show more heat fade than a disk, but the 550 disk brake fades very badly with heat as well. A better disk brake would be vastly superior to either a drum or the stock brake.
The brake shoes will wear pretty quickly with spirited use. The wear can not be compared with what you're used to with your stock rear drum brakes: rears really do next to no braking, the front brake does 90%+ of the work if you are braking properly.
A drum brake takes more maintenance than a disk. It has to be cleaned out periodically to remove the shoe dust. The drum and shoe wear with use. The drum shell cast into the hub is fairly thin and can not be recut much, so for the long view you should get a good spare hub for future use. I had a CB77 front drum/hub machined once to get bad scoring out but afterward it was just at the safe service limit. New shoes must be ground to match their radius to the drum. With drum brakes rare now this service is almost impossible to find. In the 70's every corner garage had a shoe radiusing machine in working order and a mechanic able to use it. Nowadays both are essentially nonexistent. Truck brake shops regularly do the job but their machinery is way too big for a bike brake shoe. This means a hub with its shoes in good shape should work very well since the shoes will have fit properly from the factory and worn in perfectly through use, but when it needs new shoes you will have a problem getting it to work well.
But your brakes won't squeal or drag...

Offline Flying J

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2010, 09:14:44 AM »
Ok, Im still not sold on the drum set up. I still think they look super cool.

Does this make sense?
Lighten the bike up with all aluminum seat, tank, and wheels. Increase HP with porting, 650 cam, Big bore. Now decrease braking ability with a drum. When i look at it logically it doesn't follow. I guess you could always make the argument that because the bike is lighter now you dont need as much stopping power. ::) I think I will take my right fork leg and machine it down for the dual disk set up.

Offline gmonkey

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2010, 09:30:34 AM »
Dual drum setup for the front!  :P
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Offline L.A. Nomad........

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2010, 09:47:18 AM »
Find a front drum brake setup from a Suzuki T500, it will look way better and stop better!

The T500 has twin leading shoe brake, same as the Cb350, but it's bigger!

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Offline Deltarider

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2010, 09:55:42 AM »
Quote
How much worse are Front drum brakes?
In rain they're superior. I know somebody who swapped the disk of his daily used CB500T for a drum brake for this reason.
Actually you could compromise: Honda's CBX 550F 2 had a sophisticated and well ventilated disk brake that stayed dry in rain and had the looks of a drum brake. Look around for it.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 11:09:41 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline gmonkey

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2010, 11:03:55 AM »
What's the front brake on early vtr 250's?  It looks a bit like a drum brake but I thought it was some different type of disk.

Wouldn't work for the OP because the rim looks too modern.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 11:06:23 AM by gmonkey »
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2010, 05:32:24 PM »
Ok, Im still not sold on the drum set up. I still think they look super cool.

Does this make sense?
Lighten the bike up with all aluminum seat, tank, and wheels. Increase HP with porting, 650 cam, Big bore. Now decrease braking ability with a drum. When i look at it logically it doesn't follow. I guess you could always make the argument that because the bike is lighter now you dont need as much stopping power. ::) I think I will take my right fork leg and machine it down for the dual disk set up.

Mate, you're building some sort of a race replica, so why not get yourself some period racing disc brakes like Brembo's, Grimeca's etc? They p1ss all over drums and look super sexy to boot. Here's a mob that sells them for quite reasonable prices:  http://www.motocicliveloci.it/inglese/catalogue/forcelle_uk.htm  ;D
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Offline Flying J

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2010, 05:52:03 PM »
Terry, my wife says im not aloud to read post from you any more. Your a bad influance! :-\

Offline david 750f

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2010, 07:19:21 PM »
ffjmoore. This photo is me racing around Mosport (Canada) with huge drum brakes in the early 70's.... The best drum brakes don't work as well as bad disc brakes.... IMHO
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2010, 12:04:56 AM »
Terry, my wife says im not aloud to read post from you any more. Your a bad influance! :-\

Ha ha, who are you gonna listen to mate, chicks don't know anything about bikes, 'cepting how to wash em! (I'll wait for the fallout.........)  ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2010, 02:03:36 AM »
in just bikes terry about three years ago i spied a cb500 with a front drum,i rang him up and it was an early z900 rear hub!how heavy?

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2010, 02:09:06 AM »
in just bikes terry about three years ago i spied a cb500 with a front drum,i rang him up and it was an early z900 rear hub!how heavy?

That's weird Dave, Kwaka's are 36 spokers too, so he must have laced a rear hub to a front rim, or was it just a rear wheel on the front? It never ceases to amaze me what some folks will do to poor unsuspecting motorcycles! ::)
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Online dave500

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2010, 04:37:28 AM »
not sure exactly,but when i rang him i asked how come its got this brake and he almost screamed "its a better brake"at me,he wanted 3250(spray can one colour) for it,i was only interested in the brake,i mentioned it to the on site roadworthy guy who passed my bike and he said hed want to see an engineers report to pass it.(as if he would know if i hadnt told him?)

Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2010, 05:00:26 AM »
If you pit the best disc brakes against the best drum brakes then discs will win out every time. However, if you're building a race replica, don't discount the front drum option. While some use the Suzuki GT750 4LS front brake over here, the one to really get hold of is the old TZ Yamaha Fontana 4LS hub. It's enormous and when set up right it will stop you in race situations as good as any disc IN THE SAME RACE CLASS.

I ran a custom made cast iron disc, AP lockheed caliper and master cylinder on my CB450 racer and Dave Madsen-Mygdal would outbrake me any time he wanted on his CB450 with the Fontana hub. It's an awesome bit of kit and there are good modern reproductions available too from the likes of smith-kanrin etc. You'll have to dig deep though, Fontanas change hands for £1000-1500 depending on condition but you will have an awesome looking and working brake.
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Offline voxonda

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2010, 06:01:48 AM »
Had a Grimeca in my 750 once, though equipped with special liners I could not get use to them.


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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: How much worse are Front drum brakes?
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2010, 06:29:27 AM »
« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 06:33:42 AM by Terry in Australia »
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)