Topic: aluminum rods these any good?

[bwaller]

S65 chaincase in the background Bill?

[Bill/BentON Racing]

Good eye,S90 from the Phillipines!Same as ours except for enclosed chain. ;)Bill

[a700guy]

I'll have to keep an eye on that auction, as i'm thinking of selling my MTC rods.  

 I just looked for the MTC rods you were talking about and all i could find is the cheap japanese rods.   

relisted cheaper
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MTC-Alumium-Rods-Honda-CB750-K-F-69-78-CB-750-CR-750-/230524015766?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35ac4d5496

aluminum still isn't spelled right, but it is getting closer

[BLUE71TURBO]

 You know what's funny is i emailed the seller and told him that his add had it spelled wrong and told him about us members here at SOHC4.NET              But in his description he spelled it right.   

[Sam Green Racing]

So I saw two main concerns for aluminum rods, corrosion and stretching.

If one isn't screaming an engine to 11000+ rpm stretching shoudn't be an issue, but I cannot figure out what the other concern for aluminium in STREET use is, does anyone know?

Let's put this thread to bed. what do you expect from your motor, is it a street or race motor?
You knew the answer to your origional question because you gave the answer in your first post.
Please tell us what you want to know.

Sam.

No answer was the reply.

Sam

[a700guy]

No i really just didn't feel like getting beat down by all the jiga-dollar builders anymore.

At first when I posted I assumed they were not of any use at all, cheap rods labeled "NOS", then came the revelation that Ken and the gang at APE used to use them...ding ding, ok so they are well made aluminum rods then, just not as fancy as yosh or golden was how I intereperated that.

Since some of us can't really afford 500-1000 just on the "latest" good rods, the rods individuals now sell, but used to sell the others mind you, I wanted to know how they performed, durabilty, etc...

I wanted to know what were the valid reasons one would not use them in street motor, as compared to yosh or GR which should have the same roughy fatigue cycle and such..or not, this was part of my curiosity.

I am building a street motor, not a cafe racer, street racer, or any other kind of racer...that was pretty much what I also asked, how they would like that enviroment, whats the downside???

If I were building a racer I would start with pretty much any newer era 600+ motor because they can all far exceed what your going to get out of this naturally aspirated.

You seemed to be getting annoyed with the thread so I "let it drop" save for the conversation between blue and I.

I know you guys really don't care alot for anything non billion dollar cafe racer and the "length" of some of those threads with little to no actual tech info proves it, no one gets annoyed with how far it stretches.

You guys are cool and I dig what you like, but there is alot more of us that aren't into that and we don't run around acting annoyed about all your racer stuff. Last I checked this was a sohc honda forum, not just a racer forum. High performance is high performance, track or not.

I asked another probably rather simple question about my head that no one at all even bothered to reply to except a guy who has no idea what the hell I am even talking about.

Where I come from it mean " we don't really care about you and your cheap motor"

So, I digress and I dropped further pursuit.

[a700guy]

Just to give you guys a little backgound about me, I have worked out of the Factory KTM Semi, I have built national pro mx and supercross engines, the engines we built used trick parts like, superlight cosworth pistons and coated wristpins, changed every 3 hours of run time, Ti h beam rods running a trimetal bearing verses roller bearings, there is no plastigauge there, its all measuring very, very closely, I know very well how to port 2 stroke cylinders and 4 stroke heads, in and for those applications. I know A keihin FCR like that back of my hand, I know Ti valves and 5 angle valve jobs.

I however don't like to come on to other peoples websites "hen house" and beat on my chest about what I know, I'm a quiet guy, respectful of the "experts" on other websites. Maybe if I had people would be more willing to talk with me.

 I got tired of missing every BD and other memorable moment of my childrens lives, I downsized and keep to myself, hoping once in while if I ask a little advice, people will treat me with the same respect I treat people with on websites where I am the "expert".

I am more than smart enough to know there is nothing simular to a 65hp single cylinder 450cc motocross engine and a hmmm 55 hp stock is it?? 750cc vintage street bike engine.

We never used aluminum rods..ever, because they cannot live through a moto of 15,000 rpm and still be small enough to fit one of these engines.

[Sam Green Racing]

Please don't get upset, your thread seemed to be going round in circles and I was having a hard time trying to figure where you were trying to get with your questions since you sounded to know what you were talking about in the first place.
There is no eliteisum on here and everyone is welcome be it novice or expert but it is my job to sift through the post and determine if it has been posted in the right section.
Quite often we get post that are border line and I let them run for a while before moving them to the tech forum sohc4/bikes.
Yours was not border line and I let it continue but like I said, it seemed to be going round in circles with you replying to some advice but not others, perhaps you didn't get the answer you were  looking for but at times, the writen word don't come out like we would ask if speaking to someone, or perhaps it's me that is thick and can't grasp what you were saying.
OK, so the bottom line is, you want a street motor (maybe hopped up) and you want to know which rods you need but you ain't got money for Carillos, don't let it worry you, most of us are like that including myself, OK, mine has them in it but it took a long time saving and I got them for next to nothing.
In Big Jay you have a guy that has been making tuning parts for these bikes since day one and suplies parts to the quickest and fastest two drag bikes on the planet as well as the outright world land speed record holding bike. 2 B continued.

[Sam Green Racing]

You posted while I was typing, will you let me continue, I have a fault with long post.

Sam.

[Sam Green Racing]

As I have now read the post that you posted while I was typing, you will note that at the begining I noted that you knew what you were talking about.

Continuing, you have Mark from M3, probably with the best track record with the CR750 bikes.
Mike Rieck, a  cylinder head porting specialist and SOHC4 engine builder who uses components from the above two people.
I'm sure these three people will agree with me that a motor built for the street with upward of 100bhp needs no more than stock rods.
It's not power that kills rods, it's revs, these motors don't need anything special in the rod department as long as they are kept to where they were designed to run, but I guess you know all that.
What was it you wanted to know again

No dissrespect meant.

Sam.

[Bill/BentON Racing]

Yeah,don't get upset.We welcome all and I know first hand Sam no elitist,the bike w/Carrillo's as he stated still a tight budget bike.We appreciate your knowledge and hope you continue to share.Sam meant well.So stay around and welcome. Bill

[Sam Green Racing]

Hey Billy, my computer is like the one in your workshop/den, it jumps off screen when the box is full and you can't see a F what you are typing, must get a mouse, I think it has to do with the touch pad being to touchie.

Sam.

[a700guy]

Yea, I'm sorry...maybe we got of on the wrong foot.

I am building a motor with an rc 315 cam and 12-1 compression, 836cc.

The reason I asked is because I know that the stock rod bolts are the weak link, I have found some other post/ and suggestions from members that suggest that I could use various aftermarket bolts and have the rods modified to accept them, I was factoring in the price of the bolts and machine work verses just buying these brand new also. I am assuming(there is that word again) that they have better than stock bolts, ready to go. I'n not saying it won't seen an occasional high rpm run through the gears, it's just not what I'm building it for.

The stock rods were heavily neglected, surface rust and the small ends are black from cooking under the dome, I think from very poor jetting, this has me a little concerned about the metalurgy of them.

On the build list, which is what I trying to balance

gaskets, seals, main and rod bearings, all tranny bearings, clutch plate set from ape, crank balance and lighten from ape, case and head studs, timing chain and tensioner/slider parts, stainless valves, springs, ti retainers, primary chains/tensioner, electronic ignition conversion, new modern rings for the 836 pistons. I am a die hard believer in blueprint/balance type details.

Thats not even counting the chassis, which is a bare frame as almost everything on it was just too rusted to reuse, thats a whole new money pit. It is a hard tail chopper, not really suitable for racing, but I would like it to be very quick should I have occasion to need it to be. 98% of the time it will just reliable cruise around town and hopefully be a blast to ride, with a nice tough sounding engine.

[MRieck]

Just to give you guys a little backgound about me, I have worked out of the Factory KTM Semi, I have built national pro mx and supercross engines, the engines we built used trick parts like, superlight cosworth pistons and coated wristpins, changed every 3 hours of run time, Ti h beam rods running a trimetal bearing verses roller bearings, there is no plastigauge there, its all measuring very, very closely, I know very well how to port 2 stroke cylinders and 4 stroke heads, in and for those applications. I know A keihin FCR like that back of my hand, I know Ti valves and 5 angle valve jobs.

I however don't like to come on to other peoples websites "hen house" and beat on my chest about what I know, I'm a quiet guy, respectful of the "experts" on other websites. Maybe if I had people would be more willing to talk with me.

 I got tired of missing every BD and other memorable moment of my childrens lives, I downsized and keep to myself, hoping once in while if I ask a little advice, people will treat me with the same respect I treat people with on websites where I am the "expert".

I am more than smart enough to know there is nothing simular to a 65hp single cylinder 450cc motocross engine and a hmmm 55 hp stock is it?? 750cc vintage street bike engine.

We never used aluminum rods..ever, because they cannot live through a moto of 15,000 rpm and still be small enough to fit one of these engines.

Of course....no disrespect intended and your engine savvy was apparent...at least to me and I know...to others. I'll apologize if you felt slighted but will honestly say there was no malice intended on Sam's part or any other board member. That being said....i wouldn't use aluminum rods for any "real" street project unless you can find an unused set of Falicons....everything else is to old and even then I'd watch the squish etc. Even then I'd count hours. I have used Jet Ti, Carrillo A and H beams, Falicon "Knife" and older 2 piece piece rods. Pistons from Cosworth (my personal favorite to this day especially in regard to the pins) to CP, Wiseco, Arias, Mahle, JE, Venolia and others I cannot remember.
 An 836 kit will live with balanced, polished and shotpeened rods using NEW late model F2 bolts and nuts. Modern 836 pistons weigh LESS (in general) than OEM 736cc pistons.
 My personal recommendation? Get Carrillo to make an "A" beam rod for the CB. It will weigh less than the "H" beam...be plenty strong...and...cost less.
  There you have it....the final solution.

[MRieck]

Yea, I'm sorry...maybe we got of on the wrong foot.

I am building a motor with an rc 315 cam and 12-1 compression, 836cc.

The reason I asked is because I know that the stock rod bolts are the weak link, I have found some other post/ and suggestions from members that suggest that I could use various aftermarket bolts and have the rods modified to accept them, I was factoring in the price of the bolts and machine work verses just buying these brand new also. I am assuming(there is that word again) that they have better than stock bolts, ready to go. I'n not saying it won't seen an occasional high rpm run through the gears, it's just not what I'm building it for.

The stock rods were heavily neglected, surface rust and the small ends are black from cooking under the dome, I think from very poor jetting, this has me a little concerned about the metalurgy of them.

On the build list, which is what I trying to balance

gaskets, seals, main and rod bearings, all tranny bearings, clutch plate set from ape, crank balance and lighten from ape, case and head studs, timing chain and tensioner/slider parts, stainless valves, springs, ti retainers, primary chains/tensioner, electronic ignition conversion, new modern rings for the 836 pistons. I am a die hard believer in blueprint/balance type details.

Thats not even counting the chassis, which is a bare frame as almost everything on it was just too rusted to reuse, thats a whole new money pit. It is a hard tail chopper, not really suitable for racing, but I would like it to be very quick should I have occasion to need it to be. 98% of the time it will just reliable cruise around town and hopefully be a blast to ride, with a nice tough sounding engine.

Can you afford a different cam?

[bwaller]

I was going to suggest the late F2 rod bolts but see Mike already mentioned this.

Bolt is 13213-KVO-000
Nut     13214-410-003

[a700guy]

Mike, not keen on that cam?

I need to look around and see who offers what here in the Fort Worth area for reconditioning the rods, peening, etc. So I should not be concerned about the cooking of the small ends? And I oh so hate a steel pin running in a steel rod bore, but then bushing adds more $$

The pistons are older, made by ART, but very little wear, definately heavier than the stock, I just recently moved and I can't find my grams scale, but its heavier. I may be able to lighten them close to stock, but usually I left that to the manufacturer, so I do not have alot of experiance just drilling/milling metal out of a piston and the consequences. It is a rc engineering setup from the old days, they even stamped the block rc eng where the displacement used to be.

[mick7504]

There's a wealth of information here on Axl's site as well.
http://www.satanicmechanic.org/conrods.shtml
Good luck with your build and welcome aboard.
Mick

[754]

Your cam is great for midrange, like a 4 should not even have.. not sure why anyone would dislike it( big + on a street motor..IMO..).. PLUS Mec has got 116hp  (with a 315) ..on the dyno in his 1000cc cb750..  come to think of it.. anyone on here getting more..

 If you do run something alse, I would be interested in that 315..

[a700guy]

I was going to suggest the late F2 rod bolts but see Mike already mentioned this.

Bolt is 13213-KVO-000
Nut     13214-410-003

I will look into these, thank you

[MRieck]

Your cam is great for midrange, like a 4 should not even have.. not sure why anyone would dislike it( big + on a street motor..IMO..).. PLUS Mec has got 116hp  (with a 315) ..on the dyno in his 1000cc cb750..  come to think of it.. anyone on here getting more..

 If you do run something alse, I would be interested in that 315..

I've always thought they had to much duration in regard to lift Frank and I think .012 is to much lash. You lose a lot of the lobe in regard to lift. I've always favored higher lift/shorter duration cams though the Harmon "F" grind was a very good cam IMO. It still didn't have all the duration and it had good lift. All that being said you need a good head for the high lift shorter duration cams.
  What kind of dyno did Mec use??? I'm curious. I've seen all sorts of #'s from different machines especially European based units.

[754]

 I only ran mine with stock size valves and unported head, and it really was fun to ride.

 The valve clearance is not as noisy as you may think.. The big lash clearance trims the duration down to close to one of the MegaCycles many on here are running..

[MRieck]

I only ran mine with stock size valves and unported head, and it really was fun to ride.

 The valve clearance is not as noisy as you may think.. The big lash clearance trims the duration down to close to one of the MegaCycles many on here are running..

Sure...it held everything open long enough to get some cylinder fill. You lose alot of lift with that lash.....that's my point.  For the most part cams come up short .005 to .010 lift on a billet (IME). Combine that with .012 lash and you've lost .5mm. I guess we all have our favorite cams.

[a700guy]

Since you brought it up, do you grind out the chamber to a full hemi?

I know that if you mess around trying to unshroud the valves in there with the stock flow ridges honda designed in you can really mess up combustion and induce detonation if you don't know what your doing. I do not have any experience with that type of chamber, thought maybe just removing it all would be best in my case, have some compression to spare.

My knowledge is limited to 4 and 5 valve chambers.

[754]

what I was trying to point out, the duration on the card, is quite long, but measured at .050 the duration is quite close to a megacycle.

FWIW, The RC cams, at least some.. were ground by Engle.. I think they were around a little while....

 I do wonder a bit about the big clearance, and suspect it is partly for lubrication..