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Author Topic: Ignition Problems  (Read 17843 times)

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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #150 on: December 23, 2011, 05:06:43 pm »
Indeed, it appears the part of our anatomy that faces the other side of the earth as we sit in our chairs, is what communicates across the planet's core.

Cmon Mark, i see no need for you to confirm that you speak out your arse..... You did poke the fire and now your unhappy with the way its all going..... Isn't it about time you got over your Dyna experience.?

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750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Markcb750

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Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #151 on: December 23, 2011, 05:43:07 pm »
Who is unhappy?  Not me.




Just found it amusing that someone who insists Dyna is great is scrounging for Dyna parts...but I admit I should have let my amusement pass unexpressed.

I will never let go of my Dyna service experience, and will always bring it up when appropriate.



« Last Edit: December 23, 2011, 05:45:25 pm by Markcb750 »

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #152 on: December 23, 2011, 05:57:52 pm »
OK, folks. How about we converse in a more civil manner, Jeez!  >:(
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Markcb750

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Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #153 on: December 23, 2011, 06:01:21 pm »
OK...

Offline somesuch

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Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #154 on: December 28, 2011, 12:40:45 pm »
Well, to follow up on what happened with Dyna.... it took them almost a month to return my burnt Dyna ignition back, I almost gave up on it! Add that to almost a month it took them to take a look at it. (if I did not call them, who knows if they were going to or not, despite of what they said when I got the RA number to send  it in) And I still did not get the answer from them as to the why they wanted to spend my shipping money to send them my burnt Dyna if they knew from the start that they were not going to replace it under warranty. We talked from the beginning about my low usage unit being out of warranty time wise, but I was led to believe that if I sent it in, they somehow might "take care" of it after they examine it. To my question later what scenario would result in them replacing my failed Dyna S under warranty, they could not come up with any...... than why waste my money and time!

Anyway, since there are so many failed Dyna ignitions out there, it may be a good idea to set up a way for people with burnt units to connect so they can repair their ignitions........ since most of the time it is just one of the pick-ups that fails. Owners who are wanting to repair their Dyna and as of now can't (Dyna will not sell you just one of the pick-ups) should be able to find other owners of Dyna who do not wish to repair theirs.......just need to match up the right pickup (cyl 1-4, or cyl 2-3)

I go first :)  available for the cost of shipping a "fresh" Dyna S ignition for the CB750 with failed 2-3 pick-up.

Probably should make a separate thread for that though.

--Nick

Have you still got it Nick? I'll take if for shipping and a few extra bucks to you for beer money. Cheers, Terry. ;D

Hi Terry,

sorry for a late reply, we are on vacation in Spain and I have not been checking in regularly. I gave my dead Dyna to a local guy who wanted it to try to repair his. I really think that with all the broken Dynas it would be helpful to have a Dyna trading thread....it would really help people like you that are looking for parts that Dynatek will not sell.

--Nick

Offline voxonda

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Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #155 on: January 02, 2012, 04:38:34 am »
Feel the need to respond. Have a failure with the Dyna "S" too. Otherwise had no problems with it, starts immidiately, runs very well until.............Had a demo run with my replica. During warm-up bike all went well, then the rider went the first laps and commented "bike runs great, all looking good" when he came in for me to do a check up. When demo started after 2 viscious laps, bike started to misfire until it completely came to a hold. Shiitttt............. after the finish picked up the bike and went back to the paddock. Put it on it's stand and decided to start it up to see what was wrong. Just one kick and bike ran great. What's that?????? Discussions about other probable causes, petrol, carb's. Decided that since bike ran that great we'll start in the second run to see what happens next. To make story short(er), same happened all over again, bike and rider Tonnie came to a hold. He waited for about 5 to 10 minutes and restarted and bike ran great again, for about a lap and a half. Same story all over.
Well decided to mount a self-generating ignition after that demo and keep the Dyna to see if it can be repaired.
At one point 'Two-tired' commented months ago that maybe Dyna is using other components than in previous years(????), heard later that maybe the later Dyna'S' probably are not US made anymore????Anyone? Still use the electronic devices, found that points gave problems higher up the revscale, like floating, could not fix that and gave up on points. (Ps. do not use mine on street, just tacks)

Rob
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 12:17:56 pm by voxonda »
Better sorry for failing then for the lack of trying.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #156 on: January 02, 2012, 10:30:07 am »
Anyone? Still use the electronic devices, found that points gave problems higher up the revscale, like floating, could not fix that and gave up on points.

Curious if you tried double springing the points?  Back in the day, that was used to get point systems to work beyond 11000 RPM.

It matters which coils you are using with points, too.  Points (actually the stock points cam), may not have enough dwell for Dyna spec coils at high RPM.  There is also a spark-gap-distance-tuning-to-match-the-ignition issue

See about "droop" here:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=29545.0

I do suspect that Dyna may have curtailed their in-line quality control process for the product in an effort to improve profitability.  It IS a typical "branding" technique for corporations.  Build (or buy) a brand that is associated with reliability and dependability.  Then streamline the manufacturing and sales process to maximize profit.  In a marketplace that has few alternative options, your product line will still survive. 

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline ofreen

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Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #157 on: January 02, 2012, 12:16:19 pm »
I do suspect that Dyna may have curtailed their in-line quality control process for the product in an effort to improve profitability.  It IS a typical "branding" technique for corporations.  Build (or buy) a brand that is associated with reliability and dependability.  Then streamline the manufacturing and sales process to maximize profit.  In a marketplace that has few alternative options, your product line will still survive. 

Sad, if true.  I have been one of the biggest defenders of the Dyna S on here.  Of course I bought mine in 1989 and it may well not be representative of the ones currently for sale.  Your comment about "branding" is right on, TT.  It is a shame about all the grand old names that have been sullied by putting them on cheap imported garbage.  It will be interesting to see if people will ever start demanding quality again instead of cheap disposable products.
Greg
'75 CB750F


“A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.”
― Mark Twain

Offline voxonda

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Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #158 on: January 02, 2012, 01:02:14 pm »
Despite the good "points" of Two-tired (LOL) I also am a believer in the electronic devices. And I second the demand for quality.
@ TT: We did use the oem coils back in the days of running stock ignition. Now use the Dyna coils with the Accel ignition with the magneto's at 120 degree instead of 180 degree, on my racer. On the Japauto replica use a self generating ignition.

Cheers, Rob
Better sorry for failing then for the lack of trying.

Offline kandrtech

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Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #159 on: January 06, 2012, 10:26:49 am »
I've followed this, and similar threads with great interest, since I will become an electronic ignition owner at some point in the future.  I typically don't have much to add, as I'm probably of the lesser experienced group here.

But - I am an Electrical Engineer at a nuclear power plant.  At our plant, we have experienced quite a few electronic device failures, and as an industry, we are all moving to requiring that all parts that are "burned in" before they are used in critical applications.  We're doing this because the fact is, the failure rate of electronic devices is initially high, then low, then high.  The curve is usually called a "bathtub curve" because of its shape.

Electronic devices will fail most often when new, and then, when very old.  The most-often debated question is how long is the initial high failure rate, measured in hours.  As an industry, the most-often used time measurement is 100 hours.  When an electronic device is energized/in use for at least the 100 hours, evidence supports the "general" conclusion that the device has "made it through" the initial high failure rate time interval, and will now provide a long service life.

One aspect of the rate of initial failures is, of course, the quality of the parts being used.  Generally, it is my observation that the quality of discrete devices has been dropping over time, as non-US sources provide more and more parts (i.e., transistors and resistors, etc.).  When the absolute best parts are desired, MIL-SPEC parts are required.

In the end, there is NO quality check that can detect all flaws, and from what we've learned, sometimes a good, long burn-in is the only way to assure a long, reliable service life.  Certainly, the sellers of these parts don't do that prior to the sale (unless we pay them extra, which we do).

I guess my overall point is that an initial period of unreliability is expected - there is no way around it.

However, intermittent device operation (when hot) absolutely points to either a bad design (I doubt it - it should be a mature design), parts of questionable quality (more likely), or poor quality assembly (also likely - depending on the method used - cold solder joints are an example).
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 10:28:53 am by kandrtech »
1978 CB750A (upgrading very, very slowly)

Past bikes - Honda: SL350, CX650C, CB900C, CB1000C, CM450A; Kawasaki: several 1972 750 H2's; Suzuki: TC90J.

Bikes I want: CX650ED, a mid-sized japanese V-twin with ABS.

Number of bikes my wife thinks I should own: 1.  I hope to disappoint her soon.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #160 on: January 06, 2012, 01:44:54 pm »
Kandrtech has only scratched the surface of silicon device reliability patterns.

In the 70s, when we introduced a new product design for sales, we would do a lengthy burn in to weed out the "infant mortality" components of the design.  If any board or component of the system failed during the 'Burn-in" tests, the machine's clock would reset to the beginning. So, it would demonstrate reliability before the customer received it.  This was part of production QA (quality assurance.)
Notes were made as to what failed and how often.  This gathering of data allowed problem areas to be scrutinized and either design alterations made or part vendors disqualified from the buyer list.   We primarily concerned ourselves with the leading edge of the "bathtub curve", as in the technology changing silicon valley environment of the 70s, product lines were superseded far sooner than individual part end of life issues.

Still, as the design and components improved the front wall of the bathtub got shorter in height, and the edge steeper, allowing the system burn-in to be reduced, from 2 days, to one day,  and so on, until eventually a 1 hour burn in was sufficient to weed out infant mortality of the electronic components.  (Some critical components were "pre-burned" in at a different in-house test station, and there was even a set up to run circuit boards or sub-assemblies in a "Hot-Box" at elevated temperatures.
The whole QA process was constantly under scrutiny.  Even vendors of components got involved, offering to pre-screen parts to specific parameters or QA test them to our specs at their facility before we even received them for insertion into our sub-assemblies.

As a buyer of electronic parts, that was about the limit of what we could do, beyond ensuring that our design in no way operated the specific component beyond or near it's rated maximum.  And, well below maximum was the clear design target whenever possible.  The less stress put on any component, the better its service life.

However, makers of silicon devices had their own issues and problems, with which to contend.
Silicon chips are grown rather than assembled.  That in itself is a process that requires clean room conditions.  Once discs are grown with sufficient purity, they are sliced into wafers.  They are then masked, doped, etched, more crystals grown, then masked and doped, etc.  Until a wafer collects all the materials needed to support the intended function.  Then the wafer is cleaved into tiny squares, glued into a plastic lead carrier where tiny wires are bonded to the chip surface and the lead carrier connections.  Then the "integrated circuit" is sealed up and sent to test.  This was a 70s process.
The "process" was described as a 10 mirco meter process, which refers to the line width technology of the era and refers to how small an area can be used on a chip to route signals or power.
 SEE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Comparison_semiconductor_process_nodes.svg

Notice how much smaller the chip making technology has gotten over the years?  2010 saw line making technology in chips as 22 NANO meters.
I believe I can safely say the there are NO manufacturers today still using the 10 mircometer process that was so prevalent in the 70s or 80s.

The reason for the part making process to change is not just for part density, but also for part speed.  You can't make a 70's era transistor using a new process, without changing it's operating parameters.  A smaller part has different heat transfer and conduction capability, as well as speed, during operation.  While you may be able to install a modern version of the old chip inside an old package, and it looks on the outside like an old component, at the very least SOME of the operating parameters of the new chip will be different from the old chip, as the process by which it was made is different than when the original part was made.

The point is, if for whatever reason, I wanted to make a brand - new 70s era electronic device, the internal parts would also have to come from the 70's (old stock) or I would have to do a redesign, using parts available today and account for the part parameters that exist for the current parts.

Back in the 70s, if we changed a part vendor/source for a component inside the system, it had to go through another cycle of determining it's infant mortality rate, before resuming the short production version in QA test.    Such tasks are expensive.  Production time costs money.  So, there is always high resistance to increasing test times or even performing a test at all, with management finding it highly desirable to build and ship immediately due to operating cost considerations.

Dyna has been around since the 70s, and certainly used parts from that era.  I'm reasonably certain some of those parts are NOT available today in exactly the same form as existed in the 70s.
Do they have a large pool of old stock?
Did they redesign the unit?
Did they re-qualify new replacement parts to take place of the old?
Did they do QA testing of components or units after making part substitutions?

Do they still deserve the Brand loyalty that was earned in the  70s an 80s?
You decide.

FWIW
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline kandrtech

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Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #161 on: January 06, 2012, 02:45:51 pm »
And TwoTired has similarly hit on some of what I was trying to say.

Today's engineering "seems" to seldom go beyond what the devices spec sheet says, and testing, or at least substantial testing as was historically done, is not the norm that it once was.

That, plus other world country parts will lead to lesser reliability.

Overall, it seems that our society is more concerned about consumption rather than retention.  Put another way, stuff is cheap enough to replace.  If it breaks, you just buy a new one.  Product longevity is no longer the goal of design/manufacturing.  Profit is.

So - in the end - the fact that the new Dyna's fail more often than the old is not surprising - at least to me.  From what I've read, it seems that everybody's version of the "truth" is correct.  Yes, we can, at times, all be right at the same time.  Some products are good, some are crap, and some are a mix.  Just don't expect the quality (i.e., performance/longevity) to necessarily be the same as it was 20 years ago - just based on the name or the brand.
1978 CB750A (upgrading very, very slowly)

Past bikes - Honda: SL350, CX650C, CB900C, CB1000C, CM450A; Kawasaki: several 1972 750 H2's; Suzuki: TC90J.

Bikes I want: CX650ED, a mid-sized japanese V-twin with ABS.

Number of bikes my wife thinks I should own: 1.  I hope to disappoint her soon.

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #162 on: January 06, 2012, 04:35:20 pm »
I think you are correct. I installed a Dyna that was fine and then it wasn't 3 years later. I am installing a PAMCO and will keep my fingers crossed.

My Company builds Trains which like Aircraft are under Federal regulation. Since the new Trains are rolling Computers we have started to have component failures in units from suppliers that were known for trouble free operation having units fail.

Having said all that, the new Trains using electronic controls rather than cam and relay controls are experiencing less down time. The average is now 1.5 to 2 million miles between breakdowns which is up from 180K.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

pamcopete

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Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #163 on: January 09, 2012, 06:24:34 pm »
What are we saying here? That Samsung TV's are unreliable? That Honda automobile computers are not trustworthy?
That Canon Cameras are junk?

Semiconductors have been manufactured "offshore" for as long as I have been in the electronics business. Components manufactured in other countries are just as good as anything made here. Semis are not manufactured "offshore" because of lower labor costs. They are manufactured offshore because most other countries other than the US recognize the value of having a semiconductor manufacturer in their country. Read this article:

http://www.manufacturingnews.com/news/10/0212/semiconductors.html

Testing completed final products was done in the '60's and '70's because the end product was very complex, with a lot of discrete components and a narrow thermal range of operation. That is not true in todays world. Discretes are less and more integration is the norm, along with a much broader range of operating temperature.

Take the PAMCO electronic ignition for example. It only has two active components, and yet it does the work of what would be dozens of components in an earlier period.

The Hall effect sensor that is in the PAMCO contains a voltage regulator, a Hall effect sensor, a temperature compensating circuit, a bipolar latch and a transistor open collector output, all in the form factor of a transistor from the '70's. This component is not manufactured in the US, but it was designed by a prominent US company that sells thousands of them every month. This component is spec ed to work at 302F. That is a temperature that most transistors from the '60's and '70's would not survive.

So, of course products from that era had to be tested extensively because the technology was in it's infancy. I think that the semiconductor world has progresses past that era.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 03:49:42 am by pamcopete »

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #164 on: January 09, 2012, 07:36:27 pm »
You are right Pete. My Company builds trains and and all the cam and relay controls are now sold state and they are holding up very well for millions of hard miles. The World will not turn backward for anyone.

I removed a failing Dyna and I just installed one of your units. I have high hopes. The unit looks good and she fired right up.  I would suggest you work on your instructions, it lacks a lot of detail. You can easily get it wrong.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 07:41:15 pm by BobbyR »
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #165 on: January 15, 2012, 09:11:04 am »
Am I alone in believing it's overvoltage to these later Dyna units causing shutdown and not 'overheating'. The bike being 'up to full temp. ( ridden some many miles, or hard/fast on the track) also corresponds with running with minimal battery charging load( had time to reach full charge ) and higher than 'normal' voltage to the ign. Stock reg. would very likely allow this without reacting to cut voltage.... my money's on that  :)
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If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #166 on: January 15, 2012, 10:18:23 am »
Am I alone in believing it's overvoltage to these later Dyna units causing shutdown and not 'overheating'. The bike being 'up to full temp. ( ridden some many miles, or hard/fast on the track) also corresponds with running with minimal battery charging load( had time to reach full charge ) and higher than 'normal' voltage to the ign. Stock reg. would very likely allow this without reacting to cut voltage.... my money's on that  :)
I would agree with you in some instances. In my case the Dyna had been run for over 8 hours in temps in excess of 100F on several occasions. Some of these were hard miles up steep mountain grades with no problem. My first failure was on a chilly day, and like the other posts about it failing and then cooling down. I found the same thing was happening.
The normal burn in process had long since passed. I would put my money on a supplier and or design change.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline eldar

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Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #167 on: January 17, 2012, 04:59:16 pm »
I see no poll selections but that's alright.
I have the S on my bike. I have had for what, 7 years, or something on that order. It has never skipped a beat. And I don't think I have adjusted it since installation.

I still have my points in my garage if I ever need them. I have had no issue with points, they work ok. The S was a nice addition. Easier starting, faster warm up, and maybe slightly better mileage. Some trips I have taken I averaged over 50mpg.

So, I can't report and bad issues with my S or with my points, other than having to constantly mess with them.

Up next will be a pamco whenever my S fails.

 

;
Honda