Author Topic: Ignition Problems  (Read 17572 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Grnrngr

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,722
Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2010, 12:12:43 am »
I had to vote for both stock and electronic -no failure..back in the day, points were the only option, they never left me stranded because once I learned how to deal with them, well, they just work all the time. Sort of....but...once they have worn to the point where they do start failing, you get fewer and fewer miles between filings until you absolutely have to replace them, at which point you could say they did, in fact fail, and it is only natural that eventually, they all fail. add to  that, that I'm basically lazy, so I set 'em and forget 'em until they do start to sputter, then out comes the file. I have bought new tuneup kits for cars that had points that did not work right out of the box, Blue Streak brand to be specific, and normally that's what I bought because they used to be leaders in the market. I've used K-Mart tuneup kits that would go an easy three or four thousand miles with no problem. go figure. I've also had points that appeared to have plenty of contact material left, would run good after a filing but wouldn't go more than 50 miles before needing another filing. I used to enjoy tuning my 68 Dart with point ignition, but back in 78 I believe, replaced it with a Zenith after market electonic unit, and the difference in the way it ran was like night and day, it was so much more smooth running and quick to start. It was a little spendy at the time, but when you consider the cost of rotor, condenser, and points for a tuneup, it did eventually pay for itself since I never had to buy those again. I'm running a Dyna on my 750, since it had the coils when I bought the bike, I just decided not to even mess with points and bought the unit. Considering the cost of points for the Honda, it will pay itself off in even less time. I had about 2000 miles on it when I layed it down July '09 on the right side. the nut wore a hole thru the points cover and the shaft has a very slight bend. In spite of that, it starts easy, goes plenty fast, and in the 8000 or so miles I've put on it since the laydown, haven't had any ignition related issues. Points are cool, and I think everyone should learn how to deal with them, but, electronics allows me to indulge my "tired of messin with points" lifestyle, and it's been so long since I've done a points tuneup that it takes me at least three times as long now.
'72 CB750-K2 "PopCycle"
'73 CB750-K2 "Barney"
'77 CB750A   
'83 Virago 500 (red)
'83 Virago 500 (black)

"and so on and so on and scoobydoobydooby..oooooooshasha"  Sly Stone

Offline Ace

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 317
Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2010, 03:44:39 am »
Had 2 Dyna S fail on each bike F2 first then K1.  #2-3 fired intermittently on the F2 and then not at installed about 14 months.  Sent it to Dyna, no fault found and just outside warranty so they discounted the next unit for me.  That one is still going.

K1 a few months ago, #2-3 fired intermittently.  Long periods of not firing which increased as I limped home on 2 cylinders most of the way over 60 miles.  Started the bike next day and worked fine until it heated up.  Installed for 3 years.

Back to points and condensers for the K1, just have to find the HM ignition now.

1971 CB750 K1
1978 CB750 F2 Supersport - Sold
1981 CB900 Bol d'or - Sold
2006 CBR1100 XX Super Blackbird - Sold

Offline pidaster

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 183
Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2010, 06:12:00 am »
On the CB750, my stock failed. The bike sat up for 26 years and I'm just about to get it on the road. When I started it last week to tune the carbs, coil for 2 & 3 stopped firing. Having already done all tune-up including the points, I just upgraded to the Pamco electronic ignition with new coils.
My '82 CB450SC is stock but electronic, no failure.
My stock electronic on the '98 Kawasaki failed and replaced it with a Dyna S. No failures for the year or two that I had it after that.
'76 CB750K
'82 CB450SC
'06 Vulcan 900
'98 Kawasaki Police 1000
'73 CB350 twin

Markcb750

  • Guest
Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2010, 08:25:35 am »
Anybody new want to add their 2cents?

Offline Grnrngr

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,722
Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2010, 09:48:07 am »
only got one cent left...got a TCI type ignition on my Yamaha rather than a points replacement unit..never had an issue with it...
'72 CB750-K2 "PopCycle"
'73 CB750-K2 "Barney"
'77 CB750A   
'83 Virago 500 (red)
'83 Virago 500 (black)

"and so on and so on and scoobydoobydooby..oooooooshasha"  Sly Stone

Offline mjstone

  • I'm definitly not a
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 689
Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2010, 11:17:29 am »
I've had my cb500/4 up and running since the end of August.  I've had the 2-3 points break twice in that time.  The phenolic piece that rubs on the cam broke both times.  Both times I limped home on two cylinders, last time about 20 miles.  They both were Tec brand.

I was thinking very seriously about going with a Hondaman ignition, but if my points keep breaking like this maybe I should  go with a Pamco unit.

MJ
1972 CB500Four (Honda)
1973 CB500Four (Oliver)

Markcb750

  • Guest
Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2011, 04:41:47 am »
A little update on my discussions with the service department at Dyna.

I did not want to re-install the Dyna S without it having been repaired, due to the lack of motivation on my part I ran the remainder of the season on points with no problem.

I never did receive an answer email from the head of Dyna service about why the 2-3 switch was not replaced.  (I'll call him RG.)

I have now called 4 times attempting to talk to RG.

Call 1& 3; I talked to Very Loyal Employee (VLE) who felt his many years with no failure should convince me to invest another $70 in my 8 month failed Dyna S. VLE has no sense of humor, but has been trained really well in everything except passing messages to RG.   VLE thought that "maybe" the unit was tested at elevated temperature, but he was not sure it was in an oven.

Call 2: a really lousy music track is played interrupted by a message about how important I am to them every 15 seconds or so, apparently they not only think me too stupid to R&R two screws and two wires, they think I have the memory of a 4 month old puppy. They wore me out. I hung up. 

Call 4: After getting VLE to tell me three times he was trying to help me because he was on my side, in response to my sarcasm, I convinced him RG was who I needed to talk to, and could he please communicate to RG that I wanted to talk to him.


Two days pass

I get a call from RG. He listens well.   I ask if the testing is done in a 130deg test stand. He tries to reassure me that the unit was checked at an elevated temperature because “these transistors get hot just working”…  I get a similar story about how reliable the Dyna S is. (8 years in his Suzuki.)  I explained I knew the Dyna S had a history of reliability, that was why I bought it, that telling me his story was not helping me to understand why I should invest 50% more in my unit to acquire this reliability.

I must admit, because RG is a good listener I was much less sarcastic.  I explained energy dissipation of  solid state devices, that if it reached 120 degrees in a 70 degree lab, it would reach about 180 degrees in the 130 degree area under a Honda 750 points cover. 

RG said OK, he had not considered that (more or less) and he would send UPS to pick up my unit!  They collected it on Monday.


Time will tell I guess, but I am optimistic RG will do the right thing and replace the 2-3 switch on my unit.

Offline Nikkisixx

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 828
Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2011, 05:22:25 am »
Looking at your informal poll, you have a sample size of 44.  Assuming a normal distribution and all that goes with it, your findings are statistically significant (32 is the magic number for a normal distribution).  My coffee hasn't kicked in yet, but I'd confidently say there is not significant failure rate in the stock points (not enough to warrant the replacement of the system).   
It is a proven fact that modifying a SOHC Honda in any way will bring on the apocalypse.

Offline Nikkisixx

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 828
Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2011, 05:33:55 am »
20% of respondants with aftermarket electronic ignition report a failure! 
(compared to 11.4% of respondants with stock ignition reporting a failure)

I'd point out the stock system does deteriorate over time as opposed to the "bullet proof" aftermarket system.  Again, coffee not engaged yet, but I'd describe those findings as significant (using CHI Square distribution).
It is a proven fact that modifying a SOHC Honda in any way will bring on the apocalypse.

Markcb750

  • Guest
Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2011, 06:16:07 am »
And here I thought the answer was 42.  ::)


Hi John, are you properly prepared for the ice storm tomorrow?


Offline Nikkisixx

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 828
Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2011, 07:30:31 am »
And here I thought the answer was 42.  ::)


Hi John, are you properly prepared for the ice storm tomorrow?



42 if the infinite improbability drive is engaged.  As for my preparedness, I have a towel handy.   ;D
It is a proven fact that modifying a SOHC Honda in any way will bring on the apocalypse.

Markcb750

  • Guest
Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2011, 02:05:23 pm »
Well I wore Dyna out, they admitted they cannot duplicate the operating conditions the unit is subjected to so they are going to refund my money.


Looks like I will be maintaining points...

pamcopete

  • Guest
Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2011, 03:55:02 pm »
markcb750,

Mark, you are just up the road from me. I'll ride up there next week and install my PAMCO system on your bike. No charge. If you like it, keep it. If you don't, just return it. All I ask is if it works for you, just report back here with your results.

If you are not familiar with my system, take a look at my web site www.cb750ignition.com

The active components in my system are rated to 302F and were originally developed to work in the Yamaha XS650, located in the cam shaft housing on the head of the engine where temperatures get to 220F on a hot day. Same PC board is used in the CB750 model.

The system comes with a one year warranty.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 04:05:08 pm by pamcopete »

Offline somesuch

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 288
Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2011, 08:20:49 am »
Interested in what resulted from that. Any follow up?

--Nick

pamcopete

  • Guest
Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2011, 04:48:22 am »
Interested in what resulted from that. Any follow up?

--Nick

No takers!

Offline z1100r

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2011, 06:13:31 am »

  Over the 35 years of owning the bikes (460,500, and 550's) I've had just about every type of ignition going MarteK, Piranha (2 off), Boyer, Dyna. They all just packed up, actually just stopped working for no reason, all of them in the same circumstances more or less. This was -  finish a race or come back from a ride, park the bike for a couple of hours, return  to start it and its dead. I gave up with all them years ago - whilst I was still racing in fact - and put the points back on. The points never ever let me down....not even limp home....they just worked all the time and appeared as good as any of the electronics - i couldn't tell the difference..!! Would not entertain an aftyermarket one ever again.

Markcb750

  • Guest
Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2011, 07:22:02 am »

  Over the 35 years of owning the bikes (460,500, and 550's) I've had just about every type of ignition going MarteK, Piranha (2 off), Boyer, Dyna. They all just packed up, actually just stopped working for no reason, all of them in the same circumstances more or less. This was -  finish a race or come back from a ride, park the bike for a couple of hours, return  to start it and its dead. I gave up with all them years ago - whilst I was still racing in fact - and put the points back on. The points never ever let me down....not even limp home....they just worked all the time and appeared as good as any of the electronics - i couldn't tell the difference..!! Would not entertain an aftyermarket one ever again.

Good information, thanks for participation.

Did you ever try to work with the suppliers?

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,326
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2011, 03:58:24 pm »
Quote
Good information, thanks for participation.

Mark, why would that be good information, how do you know this guy didn't have them set up properly, to have all aftermarket ignitions fail would lead me to believe the installation was dodgey. Thats not good info at all and an extreme case at best, seems you are only interested in failure because it suits your cause. I have only ever had one failure with electronic ignition and it was on a GSX550esd, they were commonly known to destroy CDI boxes, put one of an RD Yamaha on and all was good. I have had points fail as well, twice actually, once i was in the middle of no where but had riding mates with me, and being 1980 i was able to get points in the nearest town {about 100 miles away} and the second time they just came apart, i was at home this time. I have never had an aftermarket ignition failure and still have a 1970's dyna that works fine.....Is this good info as well.... ::) Your obsession with failure of electronic ignitions borders on the ridiculous....All modern bikes have electronic ignitions, if they were that unreliable we would still all be in the dark ages using points.

Mick
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline Skunk Stripe

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 817
Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #43 on: March 01, 2011, 04:13:09 pm »
So what happens these days when points fail? Oh yeah, you wait a week to get them, thats right. NO ONE stocks points anymore. Oh I suppose napa might have them but you can't count on that.
z1000, any racers these days use points? Thought not. Why? Electronic is reliable and works better and more consistently.

Markcb750

  • Guest
Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2011, 04:16:48 pm »
Quote
Good information, thanks for participation.

Mark, why would that be good information, how do you know this guy didn't have them set up properly, to have all aftermarket ignitions fail would lead me to believe the installation was dodgey. Thats not good info at all and an extreme case at best, seems you are only interested in failure because it suits your cause. I have only ever had one failure with electronic ignition and it was on a GSX550esd, they were commonly known to destroy CDI boxes, put one of an RD Yamaha on and all was good. I have had points fail as well, twice actually, once i was in the middle of no where but had riding mates with me, and being 1980 i was able to get points in the nearest town {about 100 miles away} and the second time they just came apart, i was at home this time. I have never had an aftermarket ignition failure and still have a 1970's dyna that works fine.....Is this good info as well.... ::) Your obsession with failure of electronic ignitions borders on the ridiculous....All modern bikes have electronic ignitions, if they were that unreliable we would still all be in the dark ages using points.

Mick

Mick, good information, thanks for participating....

Did you ask yourself why I asked if he worked with the suppliers before you went off on your rant?
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 04:20:51 pm by Markcb750 »

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,326
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #45 on: March 01, 2011, 05:01:23 pm »
No and my "rant" was directed at your completely negative attitude towards electronic ignitions and the fact that every time the subject comes up you are in there saying the same thing, i am not the first or last to make comment on this. We all know that you had a crap experience, stop trying to make it out that all electronic ignitions are crap, because thats what it looks like. I think your problem with the supplier was because you were convinced it was heat related which i very much doubt, race conditions would be a lot harsher on the ignition if heat was the problem and these units have been raced for roughly 40 years, you also stated that you were "sarcastic" so i am not surprised at the way in which this was handled. Basically you contacted an ignition specialist and proceeded to tell them why their ignition was failing with no credible evidence to prove it at all. It was probably a faulty ignition from the start but the way you went about it was not in your best interest. I still stand by what i said that the info from the last guy is useless, why did they fail, to have a high failure rate makes me think it may have more to do with his fitting of the ignitions, remember he had failures with ALL the after market ignitions he had. Don't read just what you want to see Mark, You are heavily biased toward failure and seem to not want to hear anything else.... I had "experts" come in and tell me all sorts of crap when i was working in bike shops, especially in spare parts, most common theme was , "someone told me" blah blah blah.....If it help your cause, i will never use points again, i love the set and forget beauty of the electronic ignitions....Also, i have only used electronic ignitions on modified bikes, never on a standard one....
If you are going to being using points from now on, why is still going on...? Just seems completely pointless to me..... Pardon the pun..... ;D

Mick
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 20,522
Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #46 on: March 01, 2011, 05:28:17 pm »
Are we assuming that Dyna uses the same spec parts in today's production that were available 20 years ago?

Today's electronic parts are not made with the same process used 20 years ago.  The art and process of growing silicon, doping, trimming, stacking the layers, etc., has evolved during that time.  Unless, you find genuine old stock, modern parts are different.  Usually better.  But, in some cases an old design can't work properly (or the same) with "new process" parts.  In this regard, saying electronic ignition is a bit like saying motorcycle.  It's not a specification or a definitive description.  Just a generalization, like saying gas or oil or chocolate.  To lump the Dyna in with other similar but way different ignition systems is like saying all Argentinians are the same because they share a similar base description.

Are all radios/tvs equally reliable/capable/dependable?  They are electronic, aren't they?  If your radio fails, does that mean the Dyna will?  

Points generally work even if they are bad.  Sure, smash them with a hammer and they don't.  But, neither will a Dyna.  If points look anything like points, they can still give basic function during the lead time of ordering replacements.  If the Dyna packs up... "it's dead Jim" until the new one arrives.

Creation recipes for materials/components have changed over time.  A product or a brand of product, as well as individual model, needs to be evaluated on same class basis.  The broad brush of "electronic" painted to all ignition systems having put that in their product description, does not make them equal in performance or capability.  With that type of association, a 70's pinto is the same as a 2010 Ferrari because they are both automobiles.

If you like "modern electronic ignition systems", go ahead and graft a modern one into the SOHC4.  But, saying the Dyna is the same thing is pure folly and ignores myriad details of implemantation and in cases basic modes of operation.  The Dyna-s was just an early design step toward "modern" from the 70's.  (And, a poorly implemented one at that, despite their very good marketing savvy.)  Yes, it "works" in the same way a rock can be used as a planishing hammer, and almost as crudely.

Cheers,


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Thinking:  It's like reading with your own mind

Markcb750

  • Guest
Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #47 on: March 01, 2011, 05:28:41 pm »
Well Mick...Bull

You are making assumptions, I have evidence, I worked on the unit, you never even trouble shot one because every one you ever installed was perfect.  ::)

Mick I have this thread here and I posted on one other thread, I retracted the negative connotation attached to that thread.  I do not post negative comments every chance I get, there are several others here, including a 10,000 plus poster who does, but I do not.  I think you have me blended with some other cranky old guy(s).

You're damn right i am negative about Dyna, I have many hours diagnosing and tinkering with my bike because something that is supposed to be reliable was not, and then instead of a good experience getting it repaired I got BS from Dyna and an incomplete diagnosis. There were several options available to them and they chose to bail.  


I have never made a single negative comment about any other SS ignition system, what ever you think you read, it was not me.

I did ask Pete at Pamco several questions about heat testing, and I offered to let him take pictures on my bike because I have it cleaned up a lot better then the CB he was using for pictures, someone thought my comment about a fur coat on an old whore was inappropriate, but that is just my sense of humor, some like it some don't.  You understand that in the offer to use my bike was acceptance of his solid state product?

You're making a issue where none exists.

Mark

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,326
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #48 on: March 01, 2011, 05:47:10 pm »
Quote
I have never made a single negative comment about any other SS ignition system, what ever you think you read, it was not me.

Reread Mark, i was quoting z1100r.

Its kinda funny that you think i am making it an issue, thats what i have said about this subject all along, i am just pointing out you negative input, crappy poll and no scientific based truths....thats all...Use points and forget about electronic ignitions.....end of subject.

Mick
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Markcb750

  • Guest
Re: Ignition Problems
« Reply #49 on: March 01, 2011, 06:16:03 pm »
Quote
We all know that you had a crap experience, stop trying to make it out that all electronic ignitions are crap, because thats what it looks like

Must be I don't understand this, funny.


It is not a crappy poll, it is a perfectly good poll.


The issue is not closed, and i hope more people will add their experience to the DATA.

« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 06:24:25 pm by Markcb750 »

 

;