Topic: More charging problems / chicken or egg?

[welnamark]

A little background first...i have a really clean 78 550k with around 18k miles.  The first indication of my charging issues started on my way home from a camping trip last weekend when i noticed the blinkers weren't working.  I immediately tried turning on the hi beams hoping it was an issue with the indicator panel.  As soon as the high beams were switched on the engine started to stutter.  I turned them off.  About a minute later...........bwaaaaaaahhhhhhh.  No spark and the engine dies.

The bike is put in a truck and driven 200 miles home after spending 180 dollars on a bike ramp.

I read the FAQ electrical thread here and checked out the battery.  It seems to have boiled over at some time since spring.  No electrolyte. I refill and charge the battery.  It charges quickly (a bad sign i know).

Full load test comes back O.K.

I check the output of the charging system.  Nothing. 12v at 1000, 4000, and 6000 rpm.

I perform resistance testing on the regulator leads. Resistance between I and F poles reads 0 ohms. Good.  Resistance between white regulator lead wire and ground comes back as infinite?? It's supposed to be between 4 and 8 ohms.

I check the five leads on the rectifier and get the follwing results:

forward bias to green:
y1:  infinite
y2:  infinite
y3:  infinite

reverse bias to green:
y1:  22 ohms
y2:  22ohms
y3:  22 ohms

forwared bias red/white:
y1:  22ohms
y2:  10 ohms
y3:  22 ohms

reverse bais red/white:
y1:  infinite
y2:  10 ohms
y3:  infiniter
So the rectifier's bad??

Questions:
Was the boiled battery caused by a faulty regulator?
I've read that bad batteies can cause current spikes that can take out rectifiers and regulators.  Should i replace the battery at this point?
What does the infinite resistance reading between white and brown regulator wires mean?  A bad field coil?
Oh, and i got an infinite reistance reading between the neg battery wire and black regulator wire.  What deos that mean?
Should i replace the rectifier and see what happens or ait untill i do further testing?
I am trying to get the alternator cover off to do field coil testing, but am dealing with some frozen screws at the moment.
I have a aerostich heated vest running off the battery for my girlfriend.  How likely is this related to my charging issues?
Lastly, after cleaning and reinstalling everything except the rectifier, there is a green wire that has nothing to connect too that you can see in the attached photo below the coil.   Where does that go?

Thanks for all the help.  I will get back with further info when i get the alternator cover off.
Mark

[TwoTired]

Rectifier has a bad diode.  Replace.

Test the alternator field resistance between white and Green wires (disconnected for Vreg).  S/B about 5 ohms.  If not, check connections to field.  If connections are good, the field coil is bad.

 If your battery has passed a full load test it is probably good.

I have a aerostich heated vest running off the battery for my girlfriend.  How likely is this related to my charging issues?

Probably related.  Do you know how much power the vest needs?

Don't worry about the green wire, it's for the models that use a three terminal winker relay.

Cheers,

[ekpent]

Thank God you chimed in Two Tired. As I read that your name came to mind--Need to sit down dizzy-

[welnamark]

Thanks TwoTired.  I will do field coil testing this evening.  I believe the aerostich vest draws about 3.3 amps.

Mark

[bryanj]

That draw will kill the battery(its same as an extra main beam bulb and over 25% of max generator output) as the charging only just copes with standard kit over 3,000 rpm with a very small amout left over to charge the battery

[TwoTired]

Brian J is right.

Alternator output is 150W @ 5000 RPM
Standard bike load is 120-130 Watts whenever the key switch is on.
The vest is an additional 42 watts.

When bike loads exceed alternator output, the battery depletes until expended and the coils don't get energy to spark.

The headlight draws about 50 Watts.  So, you could add a switch so that either the headlight OR the vest is powered.

This would allow you to see, or feel warm puppies, but not both.

Tough choice...

[welnamark]

Ha.  Thanks guys.  I guess my girlfriend will have to be cold.  I will get back with field coil tests this evening.  I guess with 32 year old electrical components failures aren't surprising expecially when making excessive demands!  Maybe it's time for a Goldwing.   The next thing you guy's will be telling me I'm asking the old cb to carry too much too!!   

[welnamark]

Results are in from the stator and field coil tests. 

REGULATOR:

The resistance between the neg. battery lead and the black regulator wire = 1 ohm (ideal is 0)

The resistance between the I and F poles of the regulator = 1 ohm (ideal = 0)

The resistance between the white regulator wire and ground = 7 ohm (range is 4 to 8 ohms)

The resistance between the white and green regulator wires (reg disconnected) = 4 ohms (range is 4 to 6 ohms)

STATOR:

The resistance between 1 and 2 yellow stator wires = 0 ohms

The resistance between 1 and 3 yellow stator wires = 1 ohm

The resistance between 3 and 2 yellow stator wires = 1 ohm


So........my understanding is that my field coil, stator, and regulator are O.K.  Is this accurate?  Is replacing the rectifier and testing my charging output a reasonable way to procede from here?  Does anyone have any experience with Oregon Motorcycle Parts?  (I'm considering buying a rectifier from them).  And finally, how am I going to keep my girlfriend warm?
 
Thanks,

Mark

[Spanner 1]

Re-test the stator readings ( yellow wires )....try hard to get a good clean connection to the meter, reading should, I believe, be less than 0.5 ohms ( 0.2ohms for a 750 ). A true reading of 0 ohms between 2 of the yellows = short circuit = 1/3 of the stator giving no output and did you test yellows to ground?  ( Must be no continuity ). Also when trying to read a very low resistance like the stator coil has, first touch the red and black probes of the meter together and note that number as you have to substract it from the tested reading, my meter usually displays 0.2ohms with probe-to-probe so a reading of 0.8 ohms would be an actual impedance of 0.6 ohms on the tested winding, seewhatimean.

[TwoTired]

Mark,
Are you certain of your meter accuracy/operation/technique?  If I take those reported readings as ballpark readings rather than precise, I expect a new rectifier will get things working again.

Have you considered shared body heat? 
Maybe insulated clothing?

To keep ME warm on 20-30 minute trips to work in 40F weather, I put a Vetter fairing on my 550.  With the added lowers, heated air from the engine was guided right on to my legs.  Pretty comfortable.  And the Vetter fixed most of the wind chill factor.

Cheers,

[KingCustomCycles.com]

"how am I going to keep my girlfriend warm?" dude, I can only suggest you reach around periodically and rub her inner thigh as you ride.  They focus a whole lot less on the cold that way. 
 

[welnamark]

Thanks for the comments gentlemen. 

We use the bike for camping trips here in Minnesota well into October and the temperatures fluctuate wildly.  We have good gear and lots of layers but temps sometimes get into the 40's.

TwoTired:  I actually have a Vetter installed on the bike now.  It certainly does cut the wind.  I'll have to look into installing some lowers.......

I'm just getting the hang of using a multimeter so my technique is questionable.  I have a relatively inexpensive analog meter.  It has a dial to 0 out resistance in the leads, which i have been doing.  The ohm settings only get down to a 1 ohm scale, so it's kinda hard to get accuracy down to more then one ohm.  So my readings are definitely ballpark.

I will order a rectifier, install, and retest.  Now that I've taken the alternator cover off (which i now realize i didn't need to do) the gasket is torn is several places.  I'm sure moisture in there would not be a good thing.  How important is it that i replace the gasket?

Thanks for the help everyone.

Mark

[TwoTired]

For a little over $10 you can have a digital meter shipped to your door.
http://www.google.com/products?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=rAq&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=harbor+freight+multimeter&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=01WaTIe9NpD0tgOprpHzBA&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQrQQwAA
If there is a Harbor Freight near you it will likely be cheaper.

I've nothing against analog meters.  They have their place.  But, the digital ones are usually more accurate at the low ohms measurements.

Cheers,

[welnamark]

TwoTired:  Thanks for the link.

Any thoughts about the alternator cover gasket?  There's a NOS gasket on ebay right now for 5.99 plus s/h.

[mystic_1]

Replace the gasket.

mystic_1

[Duanob]

, or feel warm puppies, but not both.

Tough choice...

Easy now TT they're not married yet!

[TwoTired]

, or feel warm puppies, but not both.

Tough choice...

Easy now TT they're not married yet!

I have it on good authority that you don't need to be married to pet puppies...  just permission.

[welnamark]

Update:

Voltage rectifier is in and charging system is back in business!!

Embarrassing things learned:

CB550 charging system is not designed to run heated vests even in the name of "warm puppies".
Voltage is measured in parallel and current in series.
The regulator cover can easily be put on backwards leading to incorrect wiring and ensuing frustrations.

Thanks for the help all.

Mark

[highrpms]

Lastly, after cleaning and reinstalling everything except the rectifier, there is a green wire that has nothing to connect too that you can see in the attached photo below the coil.   Where does that go?

Yes I have the same green wire. What is that to?
Thanks

[MoMo]

No where, it is on most older Honda bikes.  It is on my 400f, 550 and 750. Green is ground.

[welnamark]

Because i do not own a truck and still don't trust my charging system completely, i have been bringing a meter with on trips to occasionally check system output so i can unplug the headlight and turn around if necessary.

When I'm on the side of the road or in a parking lot i check system output voltage because it's easier (in parallel, don't have to disconnect battery cable etc.)

What i have found is that output is good with the headlight disconnected (12.6 - 13V at idle and between 14 and 15V at 5000 rpm).

With the headlight on the meter needle hardly moves from 12.6V regardless of rpm.

The clymer manual doesn't specify whether voltage is to be measured during "daytime" or "nightime" conditions. 

Should my voltage output be the same for headlight on or off with only amperage differing??

Please help me trust my bike again soon.  Winter is coming.........

[MoMo]

Every old Honda I have tested usually goes up to at least 14 volts with the headlight on, except the Cb360 which has about the most anemic charging system ever. stay warm, Larry

[TwoTired]

What i have found is that output is good with the headlight disconnected (12.6 - 13V at idle and between 14 and 15V at 5000 rpm).

With the headlight on the meter needle hardly moves from 12.6V regardless of rpm.

The clymer manual doesn't specify whether voltage is to be measured during "daytime" or "nightime" conditions. 

Should my voltage output be the same for headlight on or off with only amperage differing??

A voltmeter on the battery says more about the battery charge/drain status than it does the charging system output.  If you also know the system loads, then you can infer charging system capability.
At any given run condition, the charging system either supplies enough power to run all the loads on a bike or it doesn't.

Using 12.6 V for battery full condition, a higher than 12.6v reading means that the battery is stable at full charge.  A higher reading than 12.6V means that the charging system is not only running the bike loads, but also charging the battery.  The vregs job is make sure the battery doesn't exceed 14.5V as that is bad for the battery.  If the battery on a running bike drops below 12.6V, this means that it is draining, such as when the charging system is putting out less than what he the bike requires in system loads, and the battery is supplying the difference need by the bike loads.

The headlight significantly changes the the bike's total load on the charging system/battery.  Nether supplies a constant voltage or output power.  The alternator varies its output with RPM.  The depleting battery supplies diminished power as it drains.

Your first report indicates that your Vreg knows its job and does it fine when the headlight is off and the charging system can not only keep up but well overcome the bike's loading with the headlight off.

The second report that 12.6V is tops with the headlight on suggests that the bike loads 'only just' meet the charging system capacity with no reserve.  (This summation assumes that your report is NOT an instantaneous reading but one in which trends (using time) are considered, as a battery is not useful if it allows wild output voltage swings is short time periods with standard loads.)

Since you have a new regulator and rectifier, I would look at the Black wire voltage at the Regulator with the headlight on, and compare it to the actual battery voltage.

If you have a digital meter, place one probe on Battery POS and the other probe on Vreg black.  The reading would indicate the voltage lost between those two points.  If the Vreg  and alternator are deprived of full battery power, the alternator output will diminish below full rated output.  The alternator is rated at 150W @5000 RPM provided it has a 12V input to the field coil.  It will make less than rated power when fed less than 12V on the white wire input.

You mentioned you have a Vetter installed.  Does it have running lights?  What bulb numbers do they have?  Higher wattage lights steal more from the charging system and direct it away from the battery.  Same could be true for replacement rear running lights or Turn sigs.

Cheers,

[welnamark]

Twotired,  don't know if these results are useful, my battery is reading 11.8V with no load.  I have put it on the charger for the night, but here are the current results:

Headlight / Ignition ON:
Positive battery to Negative battery (11.2v)

Headlight / Ignition ON:
V Reg black wire (unplugged) to frame / ground (10.5V)

Headlight / Ignition OFF:
Positive battery to V Reg black wire (unplugged) (11.8V)  If i read your response right you indicated that i do this test with a digital meter.  I currently only have a analog.  Is this an issue?

If i have performed these tests correctly i will retest tomorrow after the battery has been charging for the night.

Thanks for the advice.

Mark

[welnamark]

Oh...
Yes, i have a Vetter installed. 

Rear signal bulbs are 12V 23W.

Front signal bulbs / running lights are 12V 23/8W.