Author Topic: Help...still no spark...apathy looming on the horizons  (Read 2448 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

cbcoker

  • Guest
Help...still no spark...apathy looming on the horizons
« on: March 04, 2006, 11:42:41 PM »
my situations is as follows and I thank you in advance for any and all responses:
I have not now, nor never have had, spark on my 72 cb350f, with a 400f engine; i bought the bike used and non-running. I have done the following things to attempt to obtain spark-cleaned/adjusted points, replaced battery, checked fuse (ok), checked kill switch (functional) and since I broke two spark plug wires I replaced the coils. I also have new plugs I have yet to install. They are NGK DR8E, which are what are installed in the bike and called for in the stores reference manuel, though my Clymer suggests NGK D8ESL's.

facts:
-Continuity from batt to ignition switch
-continuity from kill switch to coils when switch is in the "on" position
-continuity between red and blue wires @ ignition switch when switch is in position 1
-continuity between brown and brown/white @ ignition switch when in position 1
-continuity between red and brown @ ignition switch when in position 2
-12.61 @ battery
-11.79 @ kill switch
-11.67 @ coils
-11.6 @ points

Potential culprits:
-I replaced the coils with ones off of an old Honda, which my father said came off of a running bike. The new coils have a resistance of 2.3 ohms whereas the old ones have a resistance of 4.3. Could this be a factor on a points ignition system.
-I get voltage at the points whether they are open or not when I place my ohm meter on each side of the points. I can't seem to get a voltage reading by only placing one of the ohm meter testers at the points and grounding the other out at the engine, though that just might be my own ignorance and not the cause of the problem. Something wrong here?
-maybe bad condenser(s). I need to check those still. Won't any condenser work? I thought I heard that a condenser is a condenser is a condenser, but could be wrong.
-Voltage too low early on in the system. Shouldn't I have more than 11.79 @ the kill switch. I could have too much resistance early on which is why I am not getting any spark.
-Bad ground somewhere. I don't think this is a problem but know that older bikes are fickle about having a good ground. So far they all look decent.
-The plugs I have, since they are DR8E and not D8ESL as my Clymer manuel suggests, could be outside of a range that the ignition could coaxs into sparking.

Any help is greatly appreciated. I am new to working on older bikes and eager to at least hear the sweet bellow sang by these four into four exhaust pipes. Any, any advise suggeestions, theories will be checked out because I simply am running low on ideas...thanks

Offline mrblasty

  • Expertly
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,336
  • I can bunny hop my 750 #$%*es
Re: Help...still no spark...apathy looming on the horizons
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2006, 01:33:14 AM »
I went round and round with a 350 twin, it had one bad condenser, the timing was off and the battery read a little above 12 volts and would drain quickly trying to start the bike with the starter.  I was charging the battery with a home based battery charger that just wasn't doing the job so I had it charged at the battery shop which did the trick, the bike runs like a champ.
Good luck.
I farted and made my son cry.
1973 Honda CB 750
1975 GL 1000
1975 Yamaha XS650 The Swamp Donkey

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,802
Re: Help...still no spark...apathy looming on the horizons
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2006, 01:48:40 AM »
-I get voltage at the points whether they are open or not when I place my ohm meter on each side of the points. I can't seem to get a voltage reading by only placing one of the ohm meter testers at the points and grounding the other out at the engine, though that just might be my own ignorance and not the cause of the problem. Something wrong here?


Definately.  The points are suposed to ground the coils.  Points should have voltage across them only when open.  It is important where you place your test leads.  Where exactly are you probing?

Either your points aren't making good contact (surface oxidation) or you don't have the engine connected to the battery minus terminal.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

theunrulychef

  • Guest
Re: Help...still no spark...apathy looming on the horizons
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2006, 06:18:18 AM »
I second what TT said. Something with such a total system failure makes me think "bad ground / connection" if the power source & fuses have been cleared. 

Since this bike is 34 years old, it's probably time to go over every electrical connection on the bike & either replace the bullet connectors with blades, or solder every connection you can.  At least go over all of the bullets w/ some emery & dialectic grease.  Don't forget to check the ground wire for good solid connection - you want shiny connections.  While you're doing your inspection, watch out for any frayed or damaged insulation, especially around bends.  You can have a short pretty easy with wiring that old.

It might take a whole afternoon, but you'll be glad you did it once you get the bike going.  It might very well also solve your electrical problem, or shed some light on the answer.

Good luck,
Jay in Philly

bhassell

  • Guest
Re: Help...still no spark...apathy looming on the horizons
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2006, 06:53:39 AM »
This may be stating the obvious to some, but if you have a decent OHM meter, take measurements from the negative terminal of the battery to the engine case.  You should have no more than about 2 to 3 ohms of resistance.  If not, then repeat again using the negative terminal of the battery to the exact point where the ground wire is connected to the engine. If you don't have 2 to 3 ohms there press on...
You could have one of 2 possible problems...
1. just a plain old bad, dirty connection fixable with a bit of elbow grease and wire brush.   
2. Your Negative terminal wire "may" have been exposed to battery acid at some time and wicked up enough that corrosion is living underneath the insulation where you cannot see it.  It may be wise to fashion a replacement at least temporarily even if is not pretty. 

The Electrical system of any bike car etc. often times has multiple deliveries of Voltage (separate circuits) but relies on chassis for a solid common ground.  Fix that and you are likely to see your stated voltage drops improve at your previous voltage check points as well...Best of luck, but I believe you are very near solving your mystery!
« Last Edit: March 05, 2006, 06:57:30 AM by bhassell »

cbcoker

  • Guest
Re: Help...still no spark...apathy looming on the horizons
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2006, 11:33:56 AM »
thanks for all of your help. I needed that little bit of encouragement to keep on keep'in on. I'll keep you all updated to see which solved the problem and then I'll owe that man a beer. I'll post some pictures whenever its running. again thanks

cbcoker

  • Guest
Re: Help...still no spark...apathy looming on the horizons
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2006, 11:39:25 AM »
hey two tired, I am placing the ohm meter on each side of the points. I am not sure of their names but on each piece that holds a point. One is stationary, and is adjustable, while the other is dynamic and rides along that cam lobe, moving accordingly. sorry, i don't know how to explain it any better.

Offline Jay B

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 763
Re: Help...still no spark...apathy looming on the horizons
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2006, 12:24:04 PM »
I'll step in here, It sounds like this is where your trouble lies. I'm assuming you are measuring voltage across the point contacts, right? Anyway, with the points open you should get roughly 12 volts between the contacts. With the points closed you shouldn't get a reading, as voltage should be grounded out. If you are getting a reading with the points closed, then they aren't making proper contact. Maybe they aren't clean enough, or maybe there's a little grit from your emory cloth or something holding them apart. Doesn't take much.
Jay
'77 CB550K
'74 CB350F cafe
2001 Road King
'73 CB175

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,802
Re: Help...still no spark...apathy looming on the horizons
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2006, 02:23:42 PM »
hey two tired, I am placing the ohm meter on each side of the points. I am not sure of their names but on each piece that holds a point. One is stationary, and is adjustable, while the other is dynamic and rides along that cam lobe, moving accordingly. sorry, i don't know how to explain it any better.

Oookaaay...  Terminology.  The points have stationary and moving contact ... points (heh heh).

An ohm meter measures resistance.  Disconnect the battery and turn off ignitio switch while making these measurements.
- Points open = infinate
- points closed =very very near zero.
- Check for engine grounding resistance between the stationary point contact and battery minus terminal wire =  very near zero

A multimeter can be set to read voltage.  Jay B's explanation is good if my earlier post wasn't clear enough.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

cbcoker

  • Guest
Re: Help...still no spark...apathy looming on the horizons
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2006, 09:39:30 PM »
I have spark...!Thanks to everyone that replied. It turns out that my points were never fully closing and that was the reason for no spark. Though weak, I now have spark on all cyclinders. I plan on putting th gas tank on tommorrow and trying to see if she'll run...what can cause a weak spark though? I'm not sure if she'll start but she's got compression, some spark and hopefully some gas so I'll have to see...thanks

Offline cben750f0

  • nothin draws attention like a classic bike!!
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,612
  • '75 CB750F0 Gladstone NQLD OZ
Re: Help...still no spark...apathy looming on the horizons
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2006, 10:01:41 PM »
mate am looking forward to it... nothin like a plan comin together

 ;D peace
you are never to old, to act like a kid... be safe
funny thing,chasing someone down hill on a bike 30 years older than theirs..
he said \\\\\\\'it was like watching a 250kg unguided weapon getting stuck up you bum\\\\\\\ http://www.bikepics.com/members/trixtrem/

Offline cadler

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 177
Re: Help...still no spark...apathy looming on the horizons
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2006, 12:28:06 PM »
This happened to me with a new set of points.
I installed them and got no spark. Even though they were new they were sitting on the shelf for 30+ years and had white oxidation were the points make there connection to ground.
It was easy to clean them and were fine. We were scratching our heads for awhile on that one.

Make sure you have continuity through your points to ground.