Topic: Harley vs Honda (or other Jap bike)

[MikeJW]

Not trying to resurrect this debate just to incite a riot. Personally, I don't give a dam what anyone else rides.
I was reading a book of motorcycle stories the other night and came across ann article by Ralph 'Sonny' Barger that I found interesting. He says he was working on motorcycles before he was in his teens. According to him, Hell's Angels started riding Harleys because they didn't have much choice. In 1957, it was either ride a HD or settle for a Triumph or BSA.
He said, "in terms of pure workmanship, personally I don't like Harleys. I ride them because I am in the Club and that's the image, but if I could I would seriously consider riding a Honda ST1100 or a BMW."
Then, he goes on to say, "We really missed the boat not switching over to the Japanese models when they began building bigger bikes." In the early sixties, Honda only had tiny bikes but later, when they started coming out with 900, 1100 and 1200 and even those big 1500cc bikes, man, that's some machining Harley can't touch. Kawasaki and some of the Japnese sports bikes have better brakes and more horsepower and handle easier.
He doesn't hesitate to disparage HD for some of their other well-publicized problems: oil leaks, hard and uncomfortable ride, lack of top end. Without actually expressing it in words, he gives the impression that Harley-Davidson didn't address any of these problems because they were selling so many bikes they saw no need to raise their standards. If Sonny doesn't particularly like HD, he is also sure they didn't like him or his gang friends either. He says if a member tried to go into a dealership to buy a part, they would usually refuse to sell to them and they would have to send one of their "girlfriends" in to buy the needed part.
I found it an interesting article and especially liked the part where they would cut the heavy chrome legs off old dinette tables (probably only the older guys will understand that reference) to make their original 'ape-hanger' bars.
Again, I don't have a dog in this fight and don't care one way or the other. I'm just quoting one of the better known Harley-Davidson riders in the US...whose opinion ought to count for something.

[boatsdickson]

Yeah man, aint that cool. I bought Sonnys book 'Hells Angel' a few years back and remember readin that. Didnt expect the hondas praise to come from him. 

[switchum]

  I like all bikes, but I can not deny that some of Harley riders' attitude toward me has not been kind and nice. I remember the episode from South Park...Also HD's attitude toward customers and its quality control. Those are the reasons I would prefer Honda to Harley.

 As for Sonny,  although he has some criminal records and famous as a biker gang, he has been riding over 5 decades-exception of the four years in federal prison for conspiring to blow up the clubhouse of a rival MC in KY- and he claims that still puts at least 5000 miles on his bike every year and he is still alive, surviving (I meant as a rider, not as a gang member) so there should be a lot we can learn from him as a fellow motorcycle enthusiast. Here is some of his quotes from the book called "Let's Ride -Sonny Barger's guide to motorcycling- How to ride the right way for life."

"…I recommend adopting attitude that every single person on the road is a sociopathic serial killer who has just escaped from an asylum for the criminally insane. This might seem a little pessimistic, but you’ll live longer if you assume everyone else on the road is a homicidal moron whose sole purpose is to kill you."

"It might not be the same as spending a lifetime in some Buddhist monastery, but the concentration required while riding a motorcycle is a form of focused meditation that makes all the petty distractions of day-to-day life melt away. It might seem morbid to concentrate on potential danger with such intense focus, but it clears my head. When I’m finished riding, I feel relaxed and recharged, so morbid or not, I consider it a beneficial activity."

[dhall57]

When I was growing up in the 70's The best bike to buy was a Honda SOHC. IF you wanted a bike that leaked oil like the Exxon Valdez and stayed broke down all the time you bought a Harley. I wouldn't of had a Harley back then if someone gave it to me. But than around 1984 Harley came  out with the 80ci Evo engine witch was light years ahead of anything else Harley had before it. Reliable and oil tight. I know because my 97 Wide Glide has 30000 miles and not one problem.

[JBMorse]

Well I am no fan of Harleys and certainly am a fan of SOHC4s, but I wanted to mention that I have never experienced the Harley riders bashing me or my ride.  Not even on my x-country trip during which we met all kinds of harley riders, from the dentists to some real dirty bastards!  
In fact, we were often stopped and questioned about the bike and the trip and the harley people were always very nice and interested in the bike.  In fact in Appalachia, we met a whole gang of redneck harley riders from Texas who all belonged to a harley club.  They were all interested in our trip and praised us for doing it.  One of them called me a badass or something like that!  


I think the quote Mike posted about using old table legs to make ape-hangers is right on!  That sounds pretty badass.
Oh, and while I am certainly no fan of baggers, I have to admit that after reading this month's comparison in cycle world, if I were in the market for a bagger I would probably get the harley.  They're heavy and slow for sure, but they seem to be the best at what they do.  Of course, I'd have to experience some kind of brain trauma to choose one over my CB500!

[Stev-o]

For some reason, never cared for Harley, and have owned Suzukis [2], Kawasaki, Yamaha and of course Hondas [3].

My thoughts of Harley: low tech, high vibration, slow and too loud!

[Magpie]

And that's why they sell so many of them. Never had an issue with Harley riders on my Hondas, a 750 or our Goldwing. The Harley passengers often look longingly at the passenger seat on the 'Wing though. I like the new baggers but wouldn't give up the Goldwing for one-yet.
Cliff.

[Lenny55]

Apparently, Barger only rides Victorys now. I was skimming through his "Let's Ride" book, and as mentioned above, he really didn't have anything good to say about HD other than they were made in the states.  Says the Victory is far superior to anything HD makes, and since it's not a foreign make, he's a big advocate.

[tramp]

harleys have thier place
going strait down the road or slow twisty roads harley's are pretty good
if you like to ride hard, get off the harley
although the xr1200 may be different

[Duanob]

""…I recommend adopting attitude that every single person on the road is a sociopathic serial killer who has just escaped from an asylum for the criminally insane. This might seem a little pessimistic, but you’ll live longer if you assume everyone else on the road is a homicidal moron whose sole purpose is to kill you.""

I've always ridden with that attitude even when I was 19-20 and wreckless. Everyone is out to get you whether they know it or not. Great advice Sonny, I'll take it!

[Bob Wessner]

"Just because you aren't paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't after you."

- Kurt Cobain
 

[Blueridgerunner]

Actually, I ride with the Patriot Guard as well as the CMA (I call it 100 Harleys and 1 old Honda  ). To date, I've never had anyone make any negative comment. In fact, the most heard comment is "Yep, used to have me one of those"
When I hint about a bigger, newer bike, the wife's answer is that I'm lucky to have what I've got!! Not sure if she means her or the bike (She'd be right in either case).

[cb650PK]

Yea, nothing more fun then being stuck behind 25 Harleys, barley doing speed limit . Apparently you cant go anywhere alone if you have Harley. Least fun bike I ever rode was Fat Boy. Why would anyone buy Harley when there is so many better choices. Most people on Harleys did not want a motorcycle, they wanted a Harley.

[Stev-o]

Most people on Harleys did not want a motorcycle, they wanted a Harley.

It has become a status symbol for the white collar group, which is sad.

[Terry in Australia]

Harley's are great bikes, I've only ever owned one (an iron head sporty) but I'd have another one in a heartbeat. My Triumph Rocket III is the best of both worlds though, it's a nice comfy cruiser like a Harley fatboy, but is quicker than many sportsbikes, handles well and has excellent brakes.

I've had a few Harley owners ask me if the Rocket's are as good as they've heard, as they're thinking about buying one, and I tell them, "they're just like your Harley mate, only a whole lot faster". 

I love my Honda's, but there's room in my garage for some US iron, too. I've always had a soft spot for the Hell's Angels ever since two of them saved me from a major arse-kicking when I was 18, riding my first CB750. It's refreshing to know that Sonny Barger is a thinking man's biker. Cheers, Terry.  

[elsinore401]

Funny, I just sold my 01 Superglide last week. and bought my really nice 750 k2 for one third the money. I didn't sell the glide to get the honda, just coincidence. I work at MMI, a huge motorcycle school and I am around the 4 japanese manufacturers as well as harley all the time. There a 2 kinds of riders "Motorcycle people" and "Harley people". Motorcycle people can like Harleys, but Harley people don't know much about motorcycles. I have a 4000 mile XR1000 which I consider the baddest Harley ever and most HD guys don't even know what it is. Any well sorted SOHC 750 or Norton or let alone a Z1 will outperform a new HD for daily use. That's why my Dyna is gone.

[Terry in Australia]

There a 2 kinds of riders "Motorcycle people" and "Harley people". Motorcycle people can like Harleys, but Harley people don't know much about motorcycles.

I agree mate, but from my experience there are plenty of "Honda people" too........... 

[medic09]

I agree mate, but from my experience there are plenty of "Honda people" too........... 

Very true, Terrence; but the 'Honda people' have a bit more rational support for their position (even if it, too, is close-minded).  Hondas have been pretty well-made and reliable for almost as long as they've been on the American market.  And the parts prices were usually a whole lot more reasonable than Harley parts.  And they've had a real impact on the engineering of motorcycles (might be doing it again with that double clutch tranny on the new VFR) at some time or another.

Of course, the Cub is still the bike-to-beat in much of the world.   

(Now, if you want to talk about blind loyalty, try old Triumph owners...  )

[Retro Rocket]

(Now, if you want to talk about blind loyalty, try old Triumph owners...  Grin)

You can blame "Lucas the prince of darkness" for the blind part....

Mick

[Terry in Australia]

That's true, I think when John Bloor rebirthed the brand, he stayed away from Joe Lucas, in favor of Harry Hitachi, or maybe David Denso....... 

[Retro Rocket]

That's true, I think when John Bloor rebirthed the brand, he stayed away from Joe Lucas, in favor of Harry Hitachi, or maybe David Denso....... 

Sounds like that was a good move.......although i am a bit sus about their first names.....

Mick.

[dave500]

so is robert bosch "bob bosch"?got to have almost the best auto electrical stuff around.

[Terry in Australia]

so is robert bosch "bob bosch"?got to have almost the best auto electrical stuff around.

That's it Dave, to be honest I don't know who does the electrickery for modern Triumph's, (nothing's broken yet, so I haven't had to look) but Bob may well have had a hand in it!

[Grnrngr]

When I was growing up in the 70's The best bike to buy was a Honda SOHC.

Guess it depends on where you grew up..I was a kid in the SF bay area in the early to mid 60s and there were lots of harleys, there were lots of them and they were relatively cheap. I love 'em. my moms first boyfriend had an Indian. Nothing sounds like them old v-twins, and I mean the old ones. Doubt I'll ever get one because what I really want is an old knucklehead or flattie, and they are prohibitively expensive, not to mention rare, now. newer ones kinda sound the same but.....then when we moved to Sacramento in the late 60s, in my crowd anyway, it was screamin two strokes. Hondas were OK, but 4 strokers in general, were notoriously slow, Harleys had funk appeal and the "made in America" thing a little later, best was you could get a great deal in the auctions right down the street at the highway patrol academy. as far as leaky goes, wasn't much difference between HD, trumpets and beezers, which were THE choice for choppers, but I was in a different crowd, dirt bikes and street racers, nothing could touch the two stroke twins and triples. Knew a few folks that had Honda 305s and 350s and we ran away from them like they were mopeds, heck even a Yammie 175 enduro would give a Honda 350 a run for it's money. But...I'd rather be ridin than drivin and I rode a friends Honda 350 on a couple occasions, it just didn't give me the same thrill. Didn't realize until recently that the 750 Hondas WERE actually capable of the same sort of speeds, maybe even better, than the rest of the 750s on the market then, but I'm still in awe of the H2 Kawasaki, just don't see them anymore. Downfall of the two strokes...early burnout (and now, so environmentally incorrect..) Wasn't until I got my xs650 in '81 that I actually developed a fondness for four strokers, I Love my Honda 750, and it's plenty fast, just don't have that burning desire to get the front wheel off the ground at every light anymore. Knew a few 1 percenters back then and never got any crap from the ones I knew, they were all about "don't matter what you ride, as long as it's got 2 wheels, hell a ten speed's better than a car", just didn't get many waves back from the ones I didn't know. most of the ones I knew started out on mini bikes, whizzers and honda 50s. Of course that WAS back in the day, and I'm sure many of the sport bikes on the road now could blow off an H2 anytime, I just still hear that screamin WFO sound in the back of my mind sometimes, and every harley I hear takes me back in time a little....

[Terry in Australia]

Well said mate, and it's good to know that my early memories of motorcycling are similar to yours. While I was in total awe of the CB750 and then the Z1 when they were first released, many of the old Japanese four stroke twins were absolute slugs in comparison to Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki two strokes, they were wicked.

There were plenty of US and Brit bikes in my home town, not to mention a few BMW's as well, and I often wonder where they are now, I knew two brothers who between them had 4 Vincents, an Ariel square 4 and a couple of Matchless 500's, I'd love to get my hands on them now!

[KeithTurk]

I've owned most of them over the years.... and I have to admit a true fondness for the sound of a well tuned 2 stroke... ( 2/3 cylinder 350 up junk  ).....  Had an A7 350 Kawasaki as a kid... Loved that bike... but it was never much more then a toy compared to the RD's and H1's that would spank it's butt.....

I've ridden these 550's till the cows come home and there is simply nothing as smooth...  just a wonderful thing... as long as Power and speed aren't your gig... and they are Dirt Cheap....  which adds this incredible appeal to me....  The CB 750's are a lot like my Z1...  they are simply a Heavy bike in comparison to the 550's... and I just don't find them as much fun for the dollar....  Having just got the Z1 running well.... I can tell you I was truly surprised that it's as powerful as my Buell Ulysses ( hi perf. sportster motor ).... and while it's heavy.... it's sporty... I can see why folks fell in love with the 900 Kawasaki.... Still not as fun as the CB550's....

Harley's are Heavy and the breed is perpetuated by a large quantity of Rub's that look like Pirates on a Half shell....  Check your brain at the leather shop's door and get your vest with Ass'less chaps here!!!!...  Arrrrrr Mateeeey

[Bob Wessner]

Ha, have to tell you I got a kick out of "pirates on a half-shell." 

[dave500]

Well said mate, and it's good to know that my early memories of motorcycling are similar to yours. While I was in total awe of the CB750 and then the Z1 when they were first released, many of the old Japanese four stroke twins were absolute slugs in comparison to Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki two strokes, they were wicked.

There were plenty of US and Brit bikes in my home town, not to mention a few BMW's as well, and I often wonder where they are now, I knew two brothers who between them had 4 Vincents, an Ariel square 4 and a couple of Matchless 500's, I'd love to get my hands on them now!

i was in total awe aswell terry by those behemoths,the "kwaka 9" and the "seven fifty four",but i was mesmorised by dirt bikes,mini bikes and the likes of dt 60 and sl70,my older sister had a boy friend with a 450 dohc,he rode it from adelaide to melbourne when we moved,i thought that was a massive effort in the day,harleys just wernt in the equation then,too dear and jap stuff was the tough look in australia,and fast,i think australia took up new technology way back then,we never saw harleys around.

[Terry in Australia]

Yeah mate, those were the days, my mate Davey has still got his Blue CB750K2 that he bought new in 1972 and racked up over 100,000 miles without ever taking the head off, before retiring it in 1985 for his ex-Milwaulkie Police Department Harley Electra Glide, which he still rides today.

I was raised in a farming community when farmers were making enormous amounts of money, so every farm boy of age had a CB750, (my mate Malcy Waller bought a K1 at 15 years of age, I bought it from him when I was 20) or a Z1, a H2, GT750 Suzy, Ducati 900SS, or a Shovelhead Harley.

I lost 13 friends in motorcycle crashes over 5 or 6 years, and my Dad told me that my mum couldn't relax until I got home after a ride, and funnily enough she's still like that now, even though I've been riding motorcycles regularly for the last 41 years.........