Author Topic: '76 CB550K wants to creep in 1st with Clutch lever pulled in (Read 4659 times)

Nortstudio · « **on:** October 24, 2010, 01:07:25 PM »

Bike: 1976 CB550K

Very new, please excuse basic question. Did some searching, but wasn't sure what to call this, so no luck.

I have noticed that when cold, right after start up, even when I pull the clutch lever in, once I hit into 1st gear, it stalls. A little warmer, and it doesn't stall, but it wants to creep forward in 1st, even though the clutch is still pulled. It seems to only happen when it's cold (and the warming up period). After that, it's fine.

So I am wondering if this is a product of bad clutch adjustment (or wrong play in lever), or is it that the oil is needing to get worked around a little bit, and it's a "normal" thing.

Thanks in advance.

Scott

HalfTon · « **Reply #1 on:** October 24, 2010, 04:47:24 PM »

Sounds like it needs an adjustment. In the service manual it talks about how to adjust the cable. I'd check that out first

Nortstudio · « **Reply #2 on:** October 24, 2010, 04:55:59 PM »

I did find and read that part of the manual, but I wanted to check in here first. Because the thing that seems strange (and made me hold off from diving in with the cable) is that it doesn't continue after it's warm.

I'm afraid to mess up the way it works warm to fix the way it works cold. Know what I mean?

Spanner 1 · « **Reply #3 on:** October 24, 2010, 05:55:28 PM »

I would work on the 'cold' adjustment of the clutch for sure.... re-do the adjustments at the clutch actuator and the cable both ends.... b.t.w... what oil are you using ?

Nortstudio · « **Reply #4 on:** October 24, 2010, 06:08:48 PM »

I seller said the oil is 10w-40 Dino. I confirmed it with him last night by phone. I know it's suggested to replace once you get the bike from a stranger - but the seller was cool, and lived across the street from a Honda dealer/shop. I actually met the mechanic, and checked the oil myself, it looks clean.

I have read the dino vs. synthetic debates, but that it helps a bit with clutch seems to be "agreed" upon.

I will be checking the clutch adjustments tomw if the weather holds. Any tips you think are missing from the Honda manual?

Nortstudio · « **Reply #5 on:** October 25, 2010, 07:57:11 AM »

Scratch that! In searching for Clutch Adjustment, i came across a post by 'Hondaman' stating:

Quote

Don't use synthetics, or you might lose your clutch.

I'm just going to bail on the synthetic vs. dino oil debate altogether, and stick with what's been used in this particular bike. Dino it is for me...

Now, just focusing on the clutch adjustment.

TwoTired · « **Reply #6 on:** October 25, 2010, 09:00:05 AM »

You know you have a clutch drag situation.
So, first step is to properly adjust the mechanism, so you can ensure full disengagement (as well as full engagement).

Be aware that warped clutch plates can also cause clutch drag, as well as "tired" or worn out oil.

The oil chosen will have an "additive package" blended with it, whether synthetic, mineral, or organic. It's the additive package that helps or hinders the clutch. The clutch doesn't care much about the base oil used.

I've used Honda HP-4 (synthetic blend) in my CB550's for many years without negative impact on the clutch. It sure makes the shifter/shifting nice.

Cheers,

Nortstudio · « **Reply #7 on:** October 25, 2010, 09:09:06 AM »

Thanks TT, I read your post on oil a while back. The clutch benefits that people spoke about, regarding synthetic blend (plus additive package), made me interested. But it was hard to figure where the debate ended...

I am going to be doing an adjustment to the clutch, and see how that works out first. Then the oil choice decision, then the warped clutch check, if all else fails. I'm making sure not to jump ahead of myself, so as to confuse what's working and what's not.

The only thing that is a tad confusing to me (because I've never done it before) in the Workshop manual, is when it discusses the first step: "loosen the clutch adjuster lock nut and turn the adjuster to align marks on the actuating arm and engine side cover."

So, when I adjust the screw down at the bottom, the arm will move? Should the cable adjustments be loosened before I do this? I'm thinking not, it definitely doesn't say that in the manual.

Thanks for all your help.

L.A. Nomad........ · « **Reply #8 on:** October 25, 2010, 09:50:26 AM »

I had the creep with clutch lever pulled in, it made a screech like noise too and non smooth take off from stop. I adjusted and re-adjusted my clutch, with no results.

It ended up being the routing of my clutch cable. Also remember to use zip ties or the metal straps to prevent the cable housing from moving.

L.A. Nomad....

TwoTired · « **Reply #9 on:** October 25, 2010, 10:53:12 AM »

Quote from: Nortstudio on October 25, 2010, 09:09:06 AM

Thanks TT, I read your post on oil a while back. The clutch benefits that people spoke about, regarding synthetic blend (plus additive package), made me interested. But it was hard to figure where the debate ended...

The debate "ended" with brand loyalty winning out over any technical merit. (Not that any of the brands offer any technical information.)
At least for diagnostic purposes, you might consider doing what the manufacturer recommends, I.E. Honda oil, on the assumption they may actually know what is best for their machines. Once you get the clutch working as it should, then experiment with whatever oil brands tickle your fancy.

Quote from: Nortstudio on October 25, 2010, 09:09:06 AM

The only thing that is a tad confusing to me (because I've never done it before) in the Workshop manual, is when it discusses the first step: "loosen the clutch adjuster lock nut and turn the adjuster to align marks on the actuating arm and engine side cover."

Yes, I agree the manual isn't crystal clear about that part of the adjustment.
On the clutch cover is a screw adjuster and lock down nut.
The lever on the clutch cover actuates a cam that presses on the clutch release.
The screw adjuster positions the entire cam near the actuator mechanism.
When the marks align, the cam should be *just* free of the clutch actuator. (So, the clutch is allowed to be fully engaged when released)
The cam itself is of an over-center design meaning as the pressure from the clutch springs get heavier, the cam provides less movement, thereby creating an increased mechanical advantage. In other words the more the clutch lever travels, the easier it should be to move the lever.

The clutch cover adjustments should be done first, and the cable length and bar level position should be done afterwards.

The final arrangement should leave the lever with little free play when the clutch is fully engaged (lever let out). And the last 1/3 of the bar level travel while applying clutch should be easier than the mid point lever position.

This is a lot easier to show in person than describe in text.

In effect, I loosen the clutch cover lock nut, position the case lever align marks, then turn the cover screw so that the internal cam is pressed against the actuator, then back off just enough so that no pressure or resistance is felt on the adjust screw, then lock the nut for the adjuster position. Then adjust the cable length to position the bar lever where I need it.

That the best I can do for description, I think.

Good luck!

Nortstudio · « **Reply #10 on:** October 25, 2010, 11:39:01 AM »

Thanks so much TT. I think that description should work just fine. In looking at the case, the dots are almost perfectly aligned. But I will make it perfect, and go from there.

OneWheelDrive · « **Reply #11 on:** March 03, 2011, 01:30:41 AM »

Ok all, I'm having the same issue with my '74 550k, but after replacing the clutch cable with OEM, and adjusting as per the manual, I still can't get the clutch to fully disengage. This is evidenced by the rear wheel spinning while in 1st when on the center stand with the lever fully pulled. I started messing with the clutch cable/lever/actuator when I started having trouble finding neutral when at a stop and a hard clunking when shifting into 1st. This trouble then turned into an impossibility accompanied by stalling when shifting into 1st and/or creeping with the lever fully pulled.

I'm familiar with how the cam pushes the clutch lifter rod and disengages the clutch, but I'm not sure why when the cam is fully actuated why the clutch wouldn't be disengaged. I've even gone so far as to over tighten the clutch cable to allow me to pull the actuator as far as it will go with the same result. What would I need to replace/repair in order to fix the problem? I'm going to pull the cover and change the oil tomorrow and see if anything looks out of whack, but anything to loook for would be helpful. Thanks!

fastbroshi · « **Reply #12 on:** March 03, 2011, 02:18:30 AM »

I think the instructions for adjusting the clutch may be off if you adjust your clutch with worn clutch disks (marks may not align?). You did have all of your cables loose before you went about adjusting? Keep in mind that little stud needs to be adjusted to where it just makes contact, then you tighten the lock nut. You wouldn't tighten it like you would a regular screw. Then tighten your clutch-end fitting, then the handlebar fitting to fine tune.

Duanob · « **Reply #13 on:** March 03, 2011, 08:52:25 AM »

Quote from: OneWheelDrive on March 03, 2011, 01:30:41 AM

This is evidenced by the rear wheel spinning while in 1st when on the center stand with the lever fully pulled.

I thought that was normal. As long as you can stop the wheel by hand. If it still wants to rotate with your hand on it then you got problems.

OneWheelDrive · « **Reply #14 on:** March 03, 2011, 09:14:57 AM »

Quote from: Duanob on March 03, 2011, 08:52:25 AM

Quote from: OneWheelDrive on March 03, 2011, 01:30:41 AM
This is evidenced by the rear wheel spinning while in 1st when on the center stand with the lever fully pulled.

I thought that was normal. As long as you can stop the wheel by hand. If it still wants to rotate with your hand on it then you got problems.

I gots problems

OneWheelDrive · « **Reply #15 on:** March 03, 2011, 09:39:56 AM »

Quote from: fastbroshi on March 03, 2011, 02:18:30 AM

I think the instructions for adjusting the clutch may be off if you adjust your clutch with worn clutch disks (marks may not align?). You did have all of your cables loose before you went about adjusting? Keep in mind that little stud needs to be adjusted to where it just makes contact, then you tighten the lock nut. You wouldn't tighten it like you would a regular screw. Then tighten your clutch-end fitting, then the handlebar fitting to fine tune.

Like I said, followed the adjustment directions to a T. Totally slackened the cable, aligned hash marks on actuator, turned adjuster screw (counterclockwise) till it made contact, tightened lock nut, tighten clutch end fitting, then handlebar adjuster till there is about 1/2 inch of play in the lever. Lever action feels perfect, more resistance in the first 1/4 pull, then progressively easier. But I'm still not entirely disengaging the clutch!

Nortstudio · « **Reply #16 on:** March 03, 2011, 09:51:12 AM »

Make sure when you move the screw to make contact, after contact, back it off a little bit before you tighten nut.

OneWheelDrive · « **Reply #17 on:** March 03, 2011, 11:25:04 AM »

The more I think about it, the more I think my lifter mechanism may be bent/broken. We'll see tonight when I dig into it.

Nortstudio · « **Reply #18 on:** March 03, 2011, 12:17:48 PM »

I'm pretty positive that this would be mechanically a jinx. Right after responding to your post, I decided I had messed with the bike enough for today - time for a ride.

Fire her up, check te clutch handle tension and SNAP! Broke the clutch cable.

I had been planning on replacing it soon, had one waiting to go. Figured now was a good time

My issue is I can't wrap my mind around the correct settings on clutch end and handle end of cable to get the damn thing feeling and acting right. No idea what "right" is with the clutch end of the cable, despite people trying to explain it to me ad nauseum. If I set the handle side to make the clutch work correctly (1/2" of play and all that) it doesn't want to snap back out when released fully. It sorta hangs there limp.

If I get THAT problem to go away, then the clutch is only functioning on the last 1/2" of the throw (all the way away from me sitting on bike).

This clutch business is very frustrating indeed!

Good luck tonight.

OneWheelDrive · « **Reply #19 on:** March 03, 2011, 12:26:23 PM »

Ouch, that's no good.

The frustrating thing for me is that I'm not having problems with the adjustment. It feels perfect, and adjusts perfectly to spec, but does not perform correctly. That's what makes me think it's a lifter issue, not the cable/adjustment.

Nortstudio · « **Reply #20 on:** March 03, 2011, 12:56:48 PM »

Any tricks with the adjustments? I'm out on a ride now - and holy #$%* the difference a new cable makes. It's not as bad as thought it would be, but I'd love to get it right.

OneWheelDrive · « **Reply #21 on:** March 03, 2011, 01:53:29 PM »

Well, I can tell you how I do it, but take it with a grain of salt as I'm still having issues.

I remove all tension in the cable by loosening the adjuster at the case all the way. I don't like to loosen all the way at the lever adjuster, I set that one right in the middle so if need be I can loosen or tighten as necessary. Then I loosen the lock nut and adjust the lifter arm, re-tighten the main adjuster till I can move the lever with my pinky (how I define "free play") about an inch. Then I fine-tune the free play with the lever adjuster till it's about 1/2 inch. That SHOULD be all there is to it.

Nortstudio · « **Reply #22 on:** March 03, 2011, 01:57:59 PM »

When you say "retighten the main adjuster" you are talking about the adjustment of the cable on the clutch end?

I think that's my weak spot. I'm not sure where that's supposed to be?

You make it so you can lift the arm UP and inch???

Man, I'm ready for this to be done

Thanks for the posts.

fastbroshi · « **Reply #23 on:** March 03, 2011, 08:27:41 PM »

I know you said you did everything by the book, but it's possible you might have the slotted adjuster opposite of where it should be. It happens. I haven't checked that section of the manual in a while. Are you using a Clymer's?
Case in point: I was helping a board member with his clutch. He was having the same symptoms as you on his 350F. We adjusted per the manual, making sure to follow directional instructions as they pertained to the slotted adjuster and locknut for the clutch. Something just wasn't right. Lo and behold, the adjuster had to be turned opposite of what the manual said. Even the crappy pictures w/ arrows showing the direction to turn the adjuster were wrong.

OneWheelDrive · « **Reply #24 on:** March 03, 2011, 11:30:00 PM »

So, I opened up the clutch cover, inspected the lifter arm, even compared it to a donor motor I have and everything looked pretty much good. I changed the oil and filter. Reassembled and adjusted again as per the manual, and lo and behold, it's functioning correctly. This time I was very careful about where to set the lock nut and exactly how much "free play" there was. It still clunks a bit into first, but a normal clunk, not a slam like before, and neutral is now obtainable when at a stop. Nort, I hope you get everything figured out, but I think as long as the cable is new and you adjust the clutch end carefully you should be good to go!

dave500 · « **Reply #25 on:** March 04, 2011, 01:26:50 AM »

if its an old cable it might have stretched after a million gear changes?and not quite give the stroke it needs,now its snapped it might be why?see what its like with the new cable,you might drop the clutch cover,dissemble/inspect and reassemble the clutch and it might come good?the thrust washer at the basket might be worn?expands with heat and takes up slack maybe?,with total cable slack the notches on the case and arm should line up as you lift the arm by hand into the declutch position,try adjusting it one way then the other as you watch the marks come close and apart,stop and lock the nut when you think its on the dot,have the handle bar end about two or three threads out,then take up slack at the bottom end of the cable,work the lever from time to time to settle the cable as you do it,see how it is and adjust further at the handle bar end if needed,the adjusters at each end of the cable do the same job,the handle bar end needs no tools though and is used for on the go adjustments,you should be able to pull the outer say half a millimeter from the adjuster at the handle bar end,a dragging clutch is a real pain,is the cable routed correctly?

Nortstudio · « **Reply #26 on:** March 04, 2011, 03:58:57 AM »

I'm going back to it later today. Glad you got it close. That's about where I am. Been that way since before winter. Just never felt like it was perfect.

Thus new cable makes a world of difference though.

Anyway OneWheel, can you clarify for me where you are going for the 1" play? What should be happening withe the lifter arm?

Thanks

OneWheelDrive · « **Reply #27 on:** March 05, 2011, 10:45:00 PM »

Sorry for the late reply. So the 1/2 inch of play should be at the end of the clutch lever. I define "free play" as being as far as you can pull the lever with just your pinky. The actuator arm will lift just a bit (1/4" or so?), then at the 1/2" mark (at the lever) should start feeling tension as the lever inside presses the clutch lifter pin.

If you have more or less free play than you need, adjust with the nut on the clutch lever end.

dave500 · « **Reply #28 on:** March 05, 2011, 11:18:28 PM »

i pull the free play at the cable outer from the adjuster nut at the handle bar end,if the cable has slack of about half a millimeter its good,bugger trying to measure at the end of the lever.

Nortstudio · « **Reply #29 on:** March 06, 2011, 04:15:36 AM »

My big (hopefully last!) frustration has been, no matter how many times I go back and forth, adjusting on either end, my clutch action is only in the last bit of "throw" of the lever.

Especially on stop and go streets like we have here, it would be nice to be moving a little earlier when I'm letting out the clutch handle. At this point, if there is a bunch of traffic pressure, I feel like I am almost going to pop wheelie.

Thanks for the responses.

bollingball · « **Reply #30 on:** March 06, 2011, 05:58:02 AM »

Nort you did notice you said (1") of free and OneWheel said (1/2") of free play did you? I am a 750 guy so mine is not the same but my gut is telling me it is your adjustment procedure that may be the problem.

Nortstudio · « **Reply #31 on:** March 06, 2011, 06:25:24 AM »

I'm all ears for tips on adjustment (specifics I mean).

I have been trying to follow the directions on this post (and many others), and for some reason my brain melts with this particular issue. It's starting to worry me

I don't think I have ever gotten to a place where I could worry about the 1/2" or 1". I think the 1" referred to the arm, but at this point I could be totally wrong.

I guess my specific question would be: If I now have the arm lined up to the dot on the case, and the cable feels good (in terms of ease of pull resistance, and (man!!!) so much smoother because of the new cable and fresh lube, how do I get the clutch to engage/disengage more in the middle of the throw?

Is it simply fiddling with the adjusters on both ends until it get s correct? If so, any tips on which way i should be turning the adjustment bolts to achieve this? ie less or more handle threads showing? Nut on the case side toward the ground or toward the sky? Sorry to be so thick with this. I really can't believe this has taken me so long to get this right. For Pete's sake, I did my first ever full tune-up in less time!

fastbroshi · « **Reply #32 on:** March 06, 2011, 06:35:16 AM »

I know mine's adjusted correctly. The adjustment nuts on the cable itself down by the case are on top of the bracket. The threaded part of my cable doesn't protrude at all from the bottom of this bracket. Brand new cable. Like I said before, the manual COULD be incorrect on the direction you should turn the slotted adjustment stud, depending on which one you're using.

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Author Topic: '76 CB550K wants to creep in 1st with Clutch lever pulled in (Read 4659 times)

bollingball