Topic: Four Stroke engine with no valves.

[fuzzy2bucks]

Poish inventor's new engine.  Does it look like it would work?

http://www.new4stroke.com/

[scunny]

yes it will work. in the running mode shown the scavenging of exhaust gases needs some work. IMHO

[pidaster]

Wouldn't a second set of small pistons cause more drag than the valves?

[dave500]

too many moving parts.

[Sam Green Racing]

While I applaud thinking outside the box (it's what takes us forward) the one thing I can think of that is a minus with this motor is this.
Do a leak down test on a normal 4 stroke motor with valves. You pump up the pressure and slowly watch it drop. Where is the pressure going if you have perfect seating valves?
OK, it's getting past the rings, which are the weakest point in the compression cycle.
Depending on the shape of the head and piston, compression can be pushed up to the point where it is that high, the fuel will ignite its self as in a diesel engine.
Even in a deisel motor, If the rings are the weakest component in the compression cycle, why has this motor got three sets?

Sam

[dave500]

the old piston pump engine even in airplanes was only replaced by the jet,rolls royce just dropped them cold.im sure if anything better was going to work it would be running by now,how big would the head be on this motor?desmo is similar in ways,weve seen the wankle,and rotary valve engines,sleeve valves are old and in fact were good,and got better as carbon built up!sarich orbital and the "wobble plate" engine,i like two strokes,even ones with valves,im sure the government isnt hiding any secrets from us.itll work although its a clumbsy design and is only a different geared valve affair,with less variables,a cam can have flanks/ramps /opening and closing tailored more or less,this timing design is fixed to the offset of its crank pin and inherent angle parameters and cannot be adjusted,it took engine builders a few years to develop variable spark timing,now we are seeing variable valve timing and lift,i think this is where power and economy will come from in the piston engine.im with sam,its thinking outside the square.

[Feliks]

Poish inventor's new engine.  Does it look like it would work?

http://www.new4stroke.com/

The inventor congratulates all Poles to celebrate the invention of a new 4 stroke engine
                            Inventor.
             

[Sam Green Racing]

While I applaud thinking outside the box (it's what takes us forward) the one thing I can think of that is a minus with this motor is this.
Do a leak down test on a normal 4 stroke motor with valves. You pump up the pressure and slowly watch it drop. Where is the pressure going if you have perfect seating valves?
OK, it's getting past the rings, which are the weakest point in the compression cycle.
Depending on the shape of the head and piston, compression can be pushed up to the point where it is that high, the fuel will ignite its self as in a diesel engine.
Even in a deisel motor, If the rings are the weakest component in the compression cycle, why has this motor got three sets?

Sam

Hi Andrew, welcome to the world of SOHC4s, what's your take on what I said about the 3 weak points in the compression cycle as aposed to just one? I know you will probably have one

Sam.

[dave500]

dont swear at him ,he dosent like overhead cams of any type!even just the mention of a cam.

[dave500]

the upside down valve pistons can collect oil,the inherent vibrations aswell as the out of phase vibrations look to be a problem,rings on the (valve pistons) are exposed to open ports as in a piston ported two stroke so will have a shortened life in this respect,and will need to be "pegged" or located to prevent rotation, again resulting in more wear in these rings,any old car engine miss treated will do 100,000 reliably,those exposed rings wont go that distance,once slightly worn the intake one will seep into the top end,the exhaust one will gather carbon behind it and make it sit out of "square" so to speak,and also have blow by behind it into the top end.,what happens to top end blow by?besides collect in the piston buckets,normal poppet valves seal more or less the same hot or cold,these will have more of a temperature dependant equasion,i think its clever,but not an improvment.,i think itll never pass any EPA regs purely on the fact so many lubrication areas have top be kept tip top and the vacuum will draw oil down too much from the overheated exhaust piston.,the rings have already gone into the exhaust port carrying a little oil ,a ring could be used to control this,it already has too much power robbing as it is.,the frictional loss is just too great on this design,its a bit obvious.

[syth82]

J

Does it look like it would work?

No.

[Sam Green Racing]

Why do you say that synth82, there will always be doubters when someone comes along with a new idea that strays away from the norm.
Since this was posted early this morning, I've been checking out what others have had to say in net land and it's not all doom and gloom
One guy did have this to say which sorta fitted in with my thoughts.

I'm not sure what the point of this engine is really, he's made all the usual claims (less emmissions better fuel economy, cheaper etc.) but I cant see evidence to back any of them up. My major problems with it would be extra blow-by past the extra piston rings, oil ingress unless horizontal and the wierd shape of the combustion chamber. Getting good mixing would be very difficult in a diesel engine. There is a large wall area so bad thermodynamic losses and lots of crevices and corners to trap fuel in which is very bad for HC emissions.

Thumbs up to him for giving it crack though.

Sam.

PS, what have you done recently to set the world on fire.

[Feliks]

Thanks all for your warm words.
I do not quite know what to do? Maybe Call the fire department?  

Some of the combustion chamber. All of these principles, which are known to relate to traditional constructions.

Some of the combustion chamber. All of these principles, which are known to relate to traditional constructions. But even such a chamber as Riccardo Comet has a large surface area. In addition, of course, depends on whether it is petrol or diesel.
Suppose that it is petrol. So they can theoretically be formed detonation / but only in theory. In practice, this is not my chamber parts hotter than 300 degrees Celsius. Even the spark plug can be blocked Immediately after ignition, the suction piston.

All of these pistons cooled by oil spray can, as in Crecy.
Therefore, it will be possible, with complete absence of detonation , obtaining the compression ratio even 1:18, if it would be correct.

Or use of gasoline is not octan.
Wild very easy way of changing the compression ratio, maybe we can change it, even to a large extent depending on the needs.

I got in his prototype, due to mechanical forcing cargo. because I am too big turbulence did not allow a spark to the spark plug .
spark between the electrodes was not possible to entrust the creation of ionized needed spark to jump.

So great was the air velocity in this new "dymnamic" combustion chamber, which is probably more and more new laws may have.

Andrew

[syth82]

Let me clarify. It would not work well enough to make it worthwhile. Combustion chamber shape is unworkable. Efficiency would not be possible. It wont work because there's no reason for it to work, no one would ever build it because it wouldn't be worth the effort. Not to say people shouldn't try to innovate, but some innovations will never make it past paper.  Besides, it still has valves, they're just a different shape.

And to answer your last question, Sam: unfortunately, not a damn thing.

[BlindJoe]

Wankle did it better fifteen years earlier.

[Retro Rocket]

Did anyone even bother to read about it before commenting..?

http://www.new4stroke.com/

Some text scrolls down , lots of good info and YES it works.

Mick

[Retro Rocket]

Wankle did it better fifteen years earlier.

Try 50+ years earlier, the wankle has been around a lot longer that 15 years...Development was in the 1950's and first running prototype was running in 1957

Mick

[bill440cars]

Wankle did it better fifteen years earlier.

Try 50+ years earlier, the wankle has been around a lot longer that 15 years...Development was in the 1950's and first running prototype was running in 1957

Mick

   Mick, you beat me to it! I was going to say that I remember reading about the Wankel in either Mechanix Illustrated or Popular Mechanics magazine, back in the 1950's myself. 

[BlindJoe]

Wankle did it better fifteen years earlier.

Try 50+ years earlier, the wankle has been around a lot longer that 15 years...Development was in the 1950's and first running prototype was running in 1957

Mick

15 years before the engine we're discussing Sry, thought it was implied.

[bradweingartner]

Its interesting. The rings will be a weak point. Combustion chamber design is a weak point. But you have two things going for you. No valve in the way of the intake or exhaust charge. And an RPM ceiling unlimited by valvetrain.

I wonder how much energy is captured or dissipated by the valve pistons. Either of them are phased to be moving downward deep into the power stroke they may kill efficiency. However, it may be a wash because you're not constantly trying to fight against valve springs either.

[dave500]

vee twins vibrate enough,imagine having an upside down one with two different weight pistons.a ceramic sliding gate valve would be easier to work.

[Retro Rocket]

FFS guys, go read the site, it tells you there, it is more fuel efficient, has loads more torque, runs cooler and produces more power.

Go read......http://www.new4stroke.com/
Click "how it works" on the left hand side ..

Mick

[Raef]

pretty complicated stuff, it seems it would be difficult to get the timing and duration for the independant valving pistons correct, not to mention balancing would be effected by adjusting the duration between the two.


with that said I like the idea of opposing pistions it seem there would be a lot of benifit from the closing speed and the rate of compression build up.

What about using only a single piston for intake with a piston port for exhaust?

I really like the rotary valve, Smokey Yunica (spelling?) build a rotary head for a 2.5 chevy  in the early 60's i think, with great HP but it had seal problems

Hell what do I know, interesting reading and it's cool looking

Mark

[Feliks]

Just a few things which are not on the main page.
I guess that   http://new4stroke1.123guestbook.com/ because I'm the most frequent visitor.  7 pages pictures and animations.

Andrew

[simon#42]

interesting stuff andrew ,  how do you separate the oil used to lubricate the overhead crankshaft [ for want of a better description ] from the valves ?  do the inverted pistons fill with oil ?  if so does this lead to oil contamination in the inlet and exhaust ports ?  have you had trouble cooling the valves as frictional losses must be quite high ?  sorry for so many questions but if i wasn't interested i wouldn't bother to ask