Author Topic: Four Stroke engine with no valves.  (Read 9597 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 17,048
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: Four Stroke engine with no valves.
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2010, 04:19:40 AM »
its still just another cumbersome design on an already proven one,developing a variable lobe on existing cam designs is still the holy grail.,its so obvious the balance and weight will suffer on this one,to call hydraulic lifters complicated and expensive to manufacture is false,they cost $10 bucks each!and last for ever.every valve type has been tried on the piston pump engine and im afraid the only one worth any merit is still the poppet valve,it has short comings sure,have you ridden an R1 lately?

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,279
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: Four Stroke engine with no valves.
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2010, 06:01:00 AM »
its still just another cumbersome design on an already proven one,developing a variable lobe on existing cam designs is still the holy grail.,its so obvious the balance and weight will suffer on this one,to call hydraulic lifters complicated and expensive to manufacture is false,they cost $10 bucks each!and last for ever.every valve type has been tried on the piston pump engine and im afraid the only one worth any merit is still the poppet valve,it has short comings sure,have you ridden an R1 lately?

Did you read what they say about it ?  It is more efficient than valves and cams, with less moving parts and the block can be made in 1 piece with no separate head...Lots of advantages over a "Normal" engine. Good on them for thinking out side the box....
Oh and the balance doesn't suffer at all, the second crank travels at half the speed of the bottom crank, actually, it is that smooth it revs faster than a normalengine and needs to be rev limited to stop it from continuing to rev.....Doesn't sound like its unbalanced to me.....


Mick
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline Raef

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,317
Re: Four Stroke engine with no valves.
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2010, 07:46:11 AM »
its still just another cumbersome design on an already proven one,developing a variable lobe on existing cam designs is still the holy grail.,its so obvious the balance and weight will suffer on this one,to call hydraulic lifters complicated and expensive to manufacture is false,they cost $10 bucks each!and last for ever.every valve type has been tried on the piston pump engine and im afraid the only one worth any merit is still the poppet valve,it has short comings sure,have you ridden an R1 lately?

Did you read what they say about it ?  It is more efficient than valves and cams, with less moving parts and the block can be made in 1 piece with no separate head...Lots of advantages over a "Normal" engine. Good on them for thinking out side the box....
Oh and the balance doesn't suffer at all, the second crank travels at half the speed of the bottom crank, actually, it is that smooth it revs faster than a normalengine and needs to be rev limited to stop it from continuing to rev.....Doesn't sound like its unbalanced to me.....


Mick
When was talking of the balancing, I was just talking about working out the top end. you really don't have many issues balancing a cam when you move the lobes around or increase the lift, very little rorating mass to deal with. this on the other hand, would have to balanced just like a normal crank and piston set and till you got the duration in between valving pistons worked out, it seem you would have to re do the whole top end. I guess I would see it better if I knew how the valve and inginition time was set.

I read the flash stuff on the site is there more else where?

Offline Feliks

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 53
Re: Four Stroke engine with no valves.
« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2010, 01:00:01 PM »
Excuse me, do not write off everyone from the participants of this forum.
First, because it's hard for me but hundereds write in English, despite the help of machine translation.

But I see a real interest in this subject, and that is why I give a few links to other furum is where you can find much more information than on my site. (I recommend a dowload section).
http://www.uphillracers.com/showthread.php/interesting-google-searches-2944.html
http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59280
http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=537088
http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=77748&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Regards Andrew ;D



« Last Edit: October 30, 2010, 01:01:45 PM by Feliks »

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,279
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: Four Stroke engine with no valves.
« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2010, 03:14:08 PM »
its still just another cumbersome design on an already proven one,developing a variable lobe on existing cam designs is still the holy grail.,its so obvious the balance and weight will suffer on this one,to call hydraulic lifters complicated and expensive to manufacture is false,they cost $10 bucks each!and last for ever.every valve type has been tried on the piston pump engine and im afraid the only one worth any merit is still the poppet valve,it has short comings sure,have you ridden an R1 lately?

Did you read what they say about it ?  It is more efficient than valves and cams, with less moving parts and the block can be made in 1 piece with no separate head...Lots of advantages over a "Normal" engine. Good on them for thinking out side the box....
Oh and the balance doesn't suffer at all, the second crank travels at half the speed of the bottom crank, actually, it is that smooth it revs faster than a normalengine and needs to be rev limited to stop it from continuing to rev.....Doesn't sound like its unbalanced to me.....


Mick
When was talking of the balancing, I was just talking about working out the top end. you really don't have many issues balancing a cam when you move the lobes around or increase the lift, very little rorating mass to deal with. this on the other hand, would have to balanced just like a normal crank and piston set and till you got the duration in between valving pistons worked out, it seem you would have to re do the whole top end. I guess I would see it better if I knew how the valve and inginition time was set.

I read the flash stuff on the site is there more else where?

Why would balancing the crank {top} be any harder than building an entire top end...? it is much simpler with out all the rockers, springs valves, and everything else in there......plus the head, this design doesn't even need a head.....much more simple design.

Thanks for the links Andrew

Mick
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline Raef

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,317
Re: Four Stroke engine with no valves.
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2010, 03:23:25 PM »
I'm just thinking about moving the relationship of the 2 connecting rods to each other to get the timing and duration correct.

I am still watching the red and blue and trying to wrap my head around it all.

Offline Feliks

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 53
Re: Four Stroke engine with no valves.
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2010, 04:09:11 PM »
I'm just thinking about moving the relationship of the 2 connecting rods to each other to get the timing and duration correct.

I am still watching the red and blue and trying to wrap my head around it all.

Indeed, this is a great deal. I think that after half a year, "placing himself in the head" of all that poverty can think of the new prototype, and even that is still many unknowns. But it will no longer adequate distance to this structure and a big determination to continue to work on it.

Because it is already easy for you to see a lot of advantages and few shortcomings.
Because I can not design the engine to all branches of engineering ...

Regards Andrew ;D

Offline Raef

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,317
Re: Four Stroke engine with no valves.
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2010, 05:24:31 PM »
Feliks

I have only the utmost respect for a person that can take an original design and see it work and doing so in large part on there own, even if only on a stand.

Mark

Offline Feliks

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 53
Re: Four Stroke engine with no valves.
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2010, 06:12:21 AM »
Feliks

I have only the utmost respect for a person that can take an original design and see it work and doing so in large part on there own, even if only on a stand.

Mark

Many Thanks  , Mark.

It is true so original design are most important.

But I know it only people who know why it is so important.

But unfortunately not all over the World so it is  ;)

Regards Andrew ;D

Offline Feliks

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 53
Re: Four Stroke engine with no valves.
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2011, 08:03:17 PM »
New animations half rotate engine:











And in scale 1:1  350 ccm intake volume:


http://www.new4stroke.com/halfrotatedxf.dxf    Save file

Regards Andrew ;D

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 17,048
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: Four Stroke engine with no valves.
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2011, 08:26:16 PM »
i still dont understand what this is about,is it to save weight or reduce friction?or just another idea,i think the old piston engine is tried and true.

Offline cruzin69

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Four Stroke engine with no valves.
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2011, 02:32:18 AM »
The Ralph Sarich Orbital engine was quite sophisticated but simple too.
Also I remember reading Two Wheels  (motorbike) magazine in the early 70s around 1972ish, and someone had invented a Rotary valve system and a complete new head type, that was much simpler, for a piston engine. The "Rotary Valve" was like a large ball, with machined cutouts that corresponded with the ports etc. No Individual valves needed. I think that inventor was from Melbourne.
I also noticed in a US Car enthusiast magazine a couple of years ago, someone is/was producing this Round Rotary Valve type head thing for a V8 engine. Of course, he thought of it all by himself and probably has "No Idea" of the Melbourne Invention. ::) (yes sarcasm).
Personally, I believe the future will be the "Old" electric Motor. A lovely Very simple device.

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 17,048
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: Four Stroke engine with no valves.
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2011, 02:55:45 AM »
yeah,the rotary "valve in head" was quite good,i remember it being shown on tv fitted to i think a honda xl250 single,nothing reciprocating has surpassed our beloved piston engine,it would have been done years ago otherwise,were stuck with the old up and down goes round and round im afraid,theres plenty of clever tomfoolery out there,it just isnt as efficient as a basic piston pump,,the "kiss" factor applies here(keep it simple stupid)

Offline Raef

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,317
Re: Four Stroke engine with no valves.
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2011, 06:39:42 AM »
The earliest rotory valve head I remember reading about was from around 1963-64 it was for a 2.5 L iron duke chevy, and the builder was a guy named Smoky Yunicka it something like 450 hp, seals were the problem

Offline City Boy

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 689
Re: Four Stroke engine with no valves.
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2011, 07:00:33 AM »
Hi gang.I tip my hat to anyone who can engineer and build things that are outside the norm.However,I think the real road to progress is along the lines of the latest F1 designs with hydraulic valve  actuation controlled by ever more complicated electronic controls and no camshafts at all.This doesn't bode well for us backyard mechanics but I think is the road to better hp and fuel efficiency.Me,I am looking forward to the day that hot rodding fans take to electric drives!!!      Rock On Packers
'52 Kiekhaefer Mercury Rocket Hurricane KG4H
'70 750/RC 1000 Original Owner
'83 1100F

Offline Feliks

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 53
Re: Four Stroke engine with no valves.
« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2011, 11:49:02 AM »



or" Twin Feliks "








or other new patents...

The cylinder can be made from an aluminum extrude...




Regards Andrew :)

Offline Kong

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,051
Re: Four Stroke engine with no valves.
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2011, 09:53:21 AM »
I have no idea why no one has pointed this out, but of course that engine uses valves - they are simply piston shaped valves but they are valves which control the flow of inlet and exhaust gasses.  There is no difference at all between that engine and any other conventional 4-stroke.  The valves are simply shaped a little different than conventional overhead valves, but its just the shape that is different, not the function.
2002 FXSTD/I  Softail Deuce
2001 Acura (Honda) CL Type-S
1986 Honda Rebel, 450
1978 Honda CB550K
1977 Honda CB550K

Offline Feliks

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 53
Re: Four Stroke engine with no valves.
« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2013, 02:39:45 PM »
I have no idea why no one has pointed this out, but of course that engine uses valves - they are simply piston shaped valves but they are valves which control the flow of inlet and exhaust gasses.  There is no difference at all between that engine and any other conventional 4-stroke.  The valves are simply shaped a little different than conventional overhead valves, but its just the shape that is different, not the function.

It's really a big difference .. Such an image will never see .. Most of the traditional motor end his life like this:



Andrew :(

Offline Bailgang

  • Scott
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,705
  • Indiana
Re: Four Stroke engine with no valves.
« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2013, 03:08:31 PM »
The earliest rotory valve head I remember reading about was from around 1963-64 it was for a 2.5 L iron duke chevy, and the builder was a guy named Smoky Yunicka it something like 450 hp, seals were the problem

Smokey Yunick thought out of the box for sure. Here's his adiabatic engine or more commonly called hot air engine concept he was developing up to his death. http://www.circletrack.com/enginetech/ctrp_1004_pontiac_fiero_hot_air_engine/viewall.html

I'm not sure about the engine Feliks is referring to but I none the less applaud anyone willing to try something different.
Scott


71 cb350 twin
77 cb750 F2
83 gl1100 Interstate

Offline Feliks

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 53
Re: Four Stroke engine with no valves.
« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2013, 04:14:49 PM »
I am sure...

a brief summary of:
So yeah .. I made two prototype engines in such a system. First, this is my thesis at the Technical University. He had to show that the engine has the possibility to work at all. The assumption has done surprisingly well ..
My second prototype, with many improvements done and its description and photos are on my website. The idea was it to work in the car Fiat 126 p on car races, which were held in Poland at the time. In my assumptions had he gives an output of around 100 horsepower at 10 000 revolutions. I made a prototype with its design and start-up to a satisfactory level of about 3 years (1000 days) View as a day of work takes a good mechanic replacing a head gasket does not, for example, in the "Lotus", and you will know the approximate costs are such a prototype and its launch . ...
All these costs were, funding of my personal funds ..
But it was worth it. Flagellum yes - inventions also sometimes surprising, in a good way. Not everything new has to be wrong. IN THIS case in good page surprise was even beyond the scope of forecasts. Namely, how are the practice has shown a prototype of the engine has an output of around 250 horsepower at 10 000 revolutions .. it is dwai know half times than the expected value. with such a large difference, finding out about it was a big threat to life ... Here a little more fully described.
 
http://www.f1technic...t=4535&start=90
 
Due to this process, the engine is so big power from a relatively weak engine, its use in a racing car does not make sense, because the engine would have already collapsed at the start, using his full power. Also I did not want to risk because of this, the startup was repeatedly dismantled because some surprised me, not only when it comes to the same power. These repeated cutting weakened some of its elements, so they can no longer be too much to repeat ... But at the moment, have the engine in ready to work .. You can screw it to the 10 000 cycles. Unfortunately, I will not let the torque measurement, because it would crash ended his .. Just a reality this time by two and a half times, and so exceeded the limit of sustainability, the design ..
Strange that since 2005, despite the existence of this site, no one was willing to see the prototype at work .. However, questions are asked, and sure. You maybe someone thinks that the data you publish false. . Really, please bear the costs of a visit, and so they will be much than the venue of the construction of its new prototype, and of course a few blunders that and I had .. Operation of the engine, is in every respect a surprise in the right direction .. Maybe instead of theorizing, it is worth it alone to see for yourself.
 
If it comes to SERVICE LIFE is sure it will be a lot more stable, because most emergency items in today's engines are running timing and head gasket, In my design of these elements is not .....
 
As regards the speed that is a structure that allows no low speed, up to 30 000 revolutions of the main shaft .. crak timing   schaft spins then only 15 000 cycles, while maintaining constant high precision charge exchange as the existing structure does not guarantee,
 
The engine has a huge advantage. The most hot item in the combustion chamber heats up,  no more than 250 degrees Celsius. This is a huge advantage, because at this temperature does not occur in the most harmful NOx pollution, .. Of course, the compression ratio can also pick up a lot ..
Adding up all the advantages and possible regulatory tions, you will get about 50 % fuel efficiency, with the same parameters driving ...
Well unless you do not believe the Displacement gives more power .. :rolleyes:

Andrew

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 17,048
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: Four Stroke engine with no valves.
« Reply #45 on: September 19, 2013, 12:56:24 AM »
         Most of the traditional motor end his life like this:

   no they dont,they wear out,or get thrown away with a rusted body with plenty of miles still in them.

Offline Feliks

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 53
Re: Four Stroke engine with no valves.
« Reply #46 on: September 19, 2013, 04:29:36 AM »
Now you can go back to my engine project new4stroke that you very much approve of ..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_efficiency

Quote
Friction[edit source | editbeta]

An engine has many moving parts that produce friction. Some of these friction forces remain constant (as long as applied load is constant); some of these friction losses increase as engine speed increases, such as piston side forces and connecting bearing forces (due to increased inertia forces from the oscillating piston). A few friction forces decrease at higher speed, such as the friction force on the cam's lobes used to operate the inlet and outlet valves (the valves' inertia at high speed tends to pull the cam follower away from the cam lobe). Along with friction forces, an operating engine has pumping losses, which is the work required to move air into and out of the cylinders. This pumping loss is minimal at low speed, but increases approximately as the square of the speed, until at rated power an engine is using about 20% of total power production to overcome friction and pumping losses.

And now this. My engine new4stroke is the most vital advantage, even though it does not appear on any animation ..
Many people have spoken out about the efficiency of four-stroke engine, was stating with such engine already reached peaks of efficiency possible, and to get it to improve by 2% "The great issue" about three bilion  dollars a year on research ..
Because they thought impossible, that you can make a difference when it comes to basic parameter or friction, which presented the current position of Wikipedia.
Meanwhile, my engine, changing the ratio of friction to the size of the intake air through the engine. So, but it's something that everyone seemed so far out that is constant and unchanging.
And here's the joke ... my engine, even though it is built on a base the size of a two-cylinder engine, 600 ccm, geometrically speaking, sucks about 950 ccm ... (in fact much greater).
So as if normal engine but with an additional 3 1/6 cylinder .. but the cylinder does not. This increase in the displacement give only two intake valves piston located in the cylinder head. And there may be nothing revolutionary, were it not that these pistons with rods they turn TWO TIMES slower than the basic pistons ... In connection with this, the force of inertia, which is realized as the additional volume (350 ccm) are swept up four times smaller (which I also take into account the Wikipedia)
So in general we can say that this "extra cylinder", if it could be adjoined to the basic operating system of the twice the speed, with the same parameters as the pistons sucking friction should have only 88 cc. So the difference 350 - 88 = 262 ccm, otzymujemy for free, with my engine system ... We can say that in relation to its basic size 600 ccm. Friction has been reduced by as much as 43%. suction  against displacement in the traditional way ...
With modesty will not ask where my 43/2 x 3000000000000 = 64 bilon $ .... which do not have the "Great" lecture every year on the 2% increase in efficiency ....

And the real efficiency gain can be easily demonstrated mathematically ...



And of course, what Daniel suggested  must take place within the limits of reasonable operation of the engine...

I can understand a lot, even that can be
stunned silence, but not for so many years ... 

Also understand that it may be hard to admit to the fact that I thought differently, but I think that should be a hit in the chest and publicly admit to mistakes. Because we all now see that the PHYSICAL PERFORMANCE engine can zoom in on a lot of ...


I think it is a step by step to resolve these problems, but probably need to order, then it will be easier for us to understand next.



Andrew

Red Baron Windmill

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 17,048
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: Four Stroke engine with no valves.
« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2013, 12:46:14 PM »
  ?

Offline Bailgang

  • Scott
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,705
  • Indiana
Re: Four Stroke engine with no valves.
« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2013, 02:58:57 PM »
  ?

All those long words got you wishing you had a dictionary handy Dave? Don't worry just have yourself a few strong drinks, sit back, relax and it'll all come to ya.  ;D
Scott


71 cb350 twin
77 cb750 F2
83 gl1100 Interstate

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,279
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: Four Stroke engine with no valves.
« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2013, 05:56:30 PM »
  ?

All those long words got you wishing you had a dictionary handy Dave? Don't worry just have yourself a few strong drinks, sit back, relax and it'll all come to ya.  ;D

Would you like to interpret that, i didn't see any long words at all....?
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.