Topic: Updates from a young endurance bike builder/racer

[livefast_dieold]

Hi everyone,

I'm back at writing something here (I always give a look about what you guys are doing) with some updates about my racing activity.
Let me say the first year of race as a builder and rider of my own creature was quite tough, and it didn't end well (for the bike).

After I had skipped one race (bike was not ready yet), after I had broke the engine on the second race, after I was not able to attend at the third race (work and other boring stuff) I finally ended the season by crashed the bike at the last race (well, not properly the last one, but I don't have time now to repair the bike).

Well...who is competitive on the very first year of racing? 

I have learned tons of things about endurance races, and how to properly prepare the bike that I'm quite hopefull that next year it will be better 

Let me explain what happend: last race was in Rijeka (Croatia), a very nice fast track.
We had some trouble to find the right stability: the bike was to high (to avoid touching the alternator case during right curves) and very uncomfortable to ride, it even shook on the straight!
But it wasn't that that stopped our almost complete race experience, in fact after two hours of racing, one of the bolt that secure the coils to the frame screwed off and the engine shut down during a very speed bend! My buddy Luca (who was driving at the moment) wasn't able to retain control and fell. Luckily he wasn't harmed at all, but the bike rolled (not just slide on the asphalt) causing a lot of damage!

For those of you who have Facebook, here's a complet photo history of my building and racing experience:
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=223131&id=614087349

So, I need a couple of advices for next season:
-the alternator and its case have to go or we will end scratch it on the ground at every right corner or have an unrideable bike. How can I charge the battery? Are there some alternatives to that big original alternator (I didn't intend to make a pun, anyway  )
-how about a chargeless system? I saw that  microbatteries for sale (even at voxonda's shop). Any idea about how much do they last?
-stability: an old rider told me to use a different triple bridge, with far less or no offset. He told me that the bike would behave far nicely with that piece. Is it so? If it is, where to find it? (at voxonda I guess... )

Last, a very very good news: my sister had the cutest baby girl ever, so I'm proudly to announce that I'm uncle 

See ya!


@turboguzzi: I will probably be at franciacorta this weekend, any chance to meet you there?

[Sam Green Racing]

A baptism of fire Ric,  it can only get better Congrats on becoming an uncle.

Sam.

[voxonda]

Hey Riccardo,

Your story is sounding like you can write a book about it. But then again, can't we all......... Yes racing has a steep learning curve, you have to learn it the hard way. Just look at the endeavours of René and his son Yrjo with their 500 classic racer. Glad to hear that at least you and your friend Lucca came out alright. All the hardware can be fixed or replaced.
Most important thing is the birth of a new life, congrats to you and of course your sister and her family.
About your questions;
- For serious racing, loose the alternator! There are a few alternatives, a self generating device, like the Daytona kit bikes and the factory bikes. Or a total loss, with battery. The batteries I can provide are , very, costly and to be honest not big enough for endurance racing. so you'll end up with something bigger and much heavier. Or use the alternator of another brand motorcycle and mount it on a different area and have it driven by the front sprocket. (Watch this space )
- What frame do you use, K or F type? And what swingarm? In my replica I use a K(6) frame with a 40 m/m longer box swingarm and the triples from a DOHC (more! off-set) to have less trail. Do you use 18"front?
What shocks (length) do you use? There are a lot of factors to consider when building a good chassis. Then there are the two very important pivot area's, How are your bearings and what play do they have?

Cheers, Rob 

[Howell]

Well...who is competitive on the very first year of racing?  

Hi Ricardo,

First year is almost difficult in racing , we had also our portion of mechanical problems during this racing season.
But never let your head hang down.
Let next year be a better raceyear for both of us.
About the stability of your bike , I have a CB750 F2 with 822cc engine with a very good stability , even on the racetrack and that without a steering damper.
I use the original triples , but fhe stearing head bearings are replaced by tapered bearings.
The frontwheel is now 18 inch and the F2 frontfork has progressive springs and adjustable damper valves , preload adjusters and the right oilcapacity.
The swingarm is replaced by a Dresda type with the same length as the original but with tapered bearings.
I use Koni shocks with original length.
The fronttyre is Bridgestone BT45 110/80 and the rear tyre a BT45 140/70.
The frame is complete original , so it is possible to make a good handling bike with little expensive changes.

Cheers René

[turboguzzi]

hei ricardo

may i ask how did you raise the bike? if you did it only form the rear, then it could be that you lost too much rake angle and indeed need to compensate with less offset triple clamps.

what about front fork spring rate? might be too low so the front sits too low too. I am running about 1 kg/mm in a lighter 500, i guess that in your 750 you'd be up to 1.1-1.2 kg/mm. what about the static sag/preload?

just some thoughts.

have to agree that its the stupid stuff that often catches you out.... last race i lost a few seconds a lap because a spark plug cap was not pressed all the way to the end, was only lightly touching the plug, still finished though

Not superstitious but dont want to talk too much about reliability either, who knows... 4 seasons, never DNF'd for tech reasons

[livefast_dieold]

- For serious racing, loose the alternator! There are a few alternatives, a self generating device, like the Daytona kit bikes and the factory bikes. Or a total loss, with battery. The batteries I can provide are , very, costly and to be honest not big enough for endurance racing. so you'll end up with something bigger and much heavier. Or use the alternator of another brand motorcycle and mount it on a different area and have it driven by the front sprocket. (Watch this space )
- What frame do you use, K or F type? And what swingarm? In my replica I use a K(6) frame with a 40 m/m longer box swingarm and the triples from a DOHC (more! off-set) to have less trail. Do you use 18"front?
What shocks (length) do you use? There are a lot of factors to consider when building a good chassis. Then there are the two very important pivot area's, How are your bearings and what play do they have?

Cheers, Rob 

-I was thinking to remove the electric start and use that space to fit a simple alternator. In this way I'm able to replace the battery with a smaller one (no need of too much ampere)…
What do you intend with “front sprocket”, do you intend the sprocket moved by the electric motor to start the engine?

-My frame is a K type, with tapered bearings at the stearing head, front fork is a rare marzocchi for Honda CB 750 of 38 mm dia. Rear swingarm is an Hilmer with tapered bearings. Front wheel is a 18 with a 110/90 tyre. Rear tyre is a 130/70. Rear shocks are from Bitubo, they are 3 cm longer than stock (they were made for a CB1100 DOHC). We also add a 3 cm risers to the rear shocks (to avoid scratching the alternator cover) which probably cause the shaking problems!

[voxonda]

Hey Riccardo,

We're working on using a alternator driven by toothbelt from the sprocket.
My feeling is your front is too wide compared to the rear and your way too steep in front. I would suggest loose the risers and look at the frontsag. Your staticsag, unloaded, should not be more 2 cm. Perhaps you can raise the oillevel in the fork.

Rob

[turboguzzi]

funny, compared to my bike, 666 behind yours , my sterring angle is way steeper, indeed, i am down to about 24 degrees.

[mec]

hi,

some answers, one question:
your picture showing cylinder and pistons, the arrow is pointing towards carbs, thats the right setup/position?

ground clearance:
for short races my bike runs on batterie (LiFe Po type) only. with 3 ohms dyna coils it has a run time of approx 1 hour. charging time is half an hour.
for long runs the engine has an alternator. the type can be ordered by http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/, voltage regulator/rectifier from http://www.elektronik-sachse.de/ .

to fit the magneto/alternator some work has to be done, milling and work on a lathe. the small alternator covers are hard to find, i would try to make one by my own.

mec

[livefast_dieold]

I had a long discussion with a professional mechanic about pistons orientation. The fact is that pin offset like this is on exaust side and on the picture you can see that the arrow is pointing to the largest valve pocket. Those pistons are from a kawa kz 650.

After exaust valve were bent, the piston have been turned, and valve pocket reshaped...

Mec, how about housing an alternator where the electric engine is? Did someone try this solution before?

[mec]

Mec, how about housing an alternator where the electric engine is? Did someone try this solution before?

hi,
sure, its doable. but its not the best solution at all.
you will add more weight than necessary, it must be driven by gear or toothbelt. both unreliable.
whats not there, cant fail.

mec

[turboguzzi]

ricardo, we dont do night endurance here, so you could easily do with just the battery and change it when you stop for fuel with a quick connector.

TG

[voxonda]

Mec, how about housing an alternator where the electric engine is? Did someone try this solution before?

hi,
sure, its doable. but its not the best solution at all.
you will add more weight than necessary, it must be driven by gear or toothbelt. both unreliable.
whats not there, cant fail.

mec

Both world championsship winner Endurance team from Suzuki and Kawasaki used this solution by tooth and or v-belt. So it is not that unreliable. But like TG said if you do not need lights no need for this.

[mec]

ricardo, we dont do night endurance here, so you could easily do with just the battery and change it when you stop for fuel with a quick connector.

TG

agree. but i do not hope, that once your greatest wish will be a second fire extinguisher in the pits.

mec

[livefast_dieold]

ricardo, we dont do night endurance here, so you could easily do with just the battery and change it when you stop for fuel with a quick connector.

TG

I will probably go for that solution...

[livefast_dieold]

Another thing, today I got a call from my mechanic who had done the carburation to my CB500 cafè (CB600 to be fair) during this week (since i work in another town i don't have time for that. Not for doing the job per se, but for learn it on my own first!). He also jetted the racing 750 back in july.

He told me that cb500 kicks the 750 ass! Even if It was my first motor (strip down, tuned and rebuild) it seems it's more powerfull than the 750 one.

Probably stock carburetors are limiting the 750...i have to buy those fancy CR, problably for Xmas 

[livefast_dieold]

Another thing, today I got a call from my mechanic who had done the carburation to my CB500 cafè (CB600 to be fair) during this week (since i work in another town i don't have time for that. Not for doing the job per se, but for learn it on my own first!). He also jetted the racing 750 back in july.

He told me that cb500 kicks the 750 ass! Even if It was my first motor (strip down, tuned and rebuild) it seems it's more powerfull than the 750 one.

Probably stock carburetors are limiting the 750...i have to buy those fancy CR, problably for Xmas 

got my cb500 cafè back from my mechanic. Suddendly I remebered why I stopped wasting money on mechanics and started doing maintance on my own. He did a fine job on the endurance 750 but a depressing crappy one with the 500! And I never made pressure on him,in fact he gave me the bike after three weeks!!! whatever...

About thinner charging system, m3 racing have a nicely done one:



but I'm afraid to ask for the price. Also cycle x has a thinner alternor on sale:



what do you guys think?

[scottly]

I think, with the cycle x system, that a very minor crash could result in expensive damage, when the stand-off mounted stator, or spinning rotor bolt hits the track. The M3 unit looks like it would be more protected from road rash..

[livefast_dieold]

Hi everyone!

Finally a weekend to work on bike 
First of all, I had teared down everything but the motor and started scratching my head and what could be the best solutions for next season.



As the oil tank was damaged, I'm tring to build one on my own:





It will be quite ugly to look at when finished (I lack of some essential tools to make a nice and clean work), so still thinking to buy a CR750 oil tank type, but I can't find anyone who sold them, any idea anyone?

Thanks!

[Sam Green Racing]

Ric, try these people, don't think they are on the net though.

Bartel Engineering.  295  Killaughey Road,  Donaghadee,  County Down, Northern Ireland, BT21 OLY.

Tel 02891 820786.

Sam.