Author Topic: Motorcycles and warfarin  (Read 6124 times)

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Offline TwoTired

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Motorcycles and warfarin
« on: October 28, 2010, 11:58:17 PM »
Anybody here still ride MCs while dosing with Warfarin?

If you don't know, Warfarin/Coumadin are anti-clotting drugs for the blood, also called blood thinners.

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Offline dave500

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Re: Motorcycles and warfarin
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2010, 01:16:15 AM »
rat poison?

Offline cookindaddy

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Re: Motorcycles and warfarin
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2010, 04:41:45 AM »
My daughter doesn't ride a bike but she is on Coumadin for life because of a blood condition. As far as I know she has no restrictions on what she can do. I wish that she was more active but...

Why do you ask?
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Motorcycles and warfarin
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2010, 07:29:49 AM »
I would not advise it early on until the person's clotting time has been established and stabilized. My Brother the MD was on it when they put some pins in his leg and we needed to get him an electric razor. If the clotting has been suppressed too much which is common in the beginning, a simple bruise from a from a bike tipping over could become dramatic. The internal bleeding is harder to stop and also to detect.
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Offline bill440cars

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Re: Motorcycles and warfarin
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2010, 07:36:55 AM »


  My Daughter doesn't ride but, she is on that stuff TT, for 6 months to a year (because of the blood clot in her left leg recently). The consistentcy of her blood keeps fluctuating
and she had lab work ever so often (started at every week and presently in at every 2 weeks).   
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Motorcycles and warfarin
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2010, 09:09:11 AM »
TT,

Shouldn't be a real problem as long as one understands what it takes to be on Warfarin/Coumadin. Learn what to do, what not to do, what to eat, how to eat, drug/drug interactions, drug/food interactions, etc. The INR is the key. Stay on top of this, get and keep it stabilized then enjoy the ride. Anti-coagulation education is the key. Hopefully there would be an anti-coagulation clinic/educator involved. My wife does this full time as a Pharmacist at the local Army hospital. She is the one that makes the medication adjustments based on results of the INR tests and counsels the patients. I hear horror stories but those are the ones that refuse to learn or listen and only come to the clinic because they are required to. Perhaps they do not value their lives much.

As was mentioned bleeding could be an issue if their numbers aren't good and stabilized but if a rider stays up that shouldn't be a problem. If a rider goes down then bleeding could be an issue whether on Warfarin or not. One shouldn't be a hostage to life.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 09:12:03 AM by Jerry Rxman Griffin »
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Motorcycles and warfarin
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2010, 09:24:05 AM »
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Motorcycles and warfarin
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2010, 11:12:56 AM »
rat poison?
Warfarin was originally developed as anti-clotting agent, which is helpful in controlled doses during/after human surgery or when extended bedrest is required.
During drug trials, the effect of overdose was tested on rats, which quickly proved that rats can die of internal hemorrhage quite readily.

 There are also other anti-coagulant drugs, most far more costly.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Motorcycles and warfarin
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2010, 11:18:48 AM »
Rats will usually take a small sample of something to see if it makes them ill. That is why true poisened food is not effective. They feel nothing from the warfarian to they eat right up.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Motorcycles and warfarin
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2010, 12:06:54 PM »
Some may remember back in '08 I had a herniated L4-L5 back disk pushing on the nerve bundle, lung blood clots, and pneumonia all at the same time.  I was on Coumandin/Warfarin for about 6 months during recovery to clear the clots.  On doctor's recommendation, I didn't ride during that time.

Oct 1 I was again admitted to the Hospital for chest pain and blood clots in the lungs.  Interestingly, it was midpoint in a 3 mile walk when the pain became severe.  I finished the walk home, painfully and a bit slowly, as any breathing more than shallow was as though I was stabbed in the chest, which, if you've never experienced this, makes you immediately stop the inhale.  But, breathing is not an option.  Anytime your body needs more oxygen, your breathing rate and volume inhaled increases.  So, you can still move, but shortly thereafter you pay with stabbing sharp pain during oxygen recovery on every breath.

Anyway, all the tests, CT, Ultrasound, etc. didn't find a primary clotting point, just like in 2008, so I have been diagnosed with hyper coagulant blood issues.  To prevent another episode, the doctors are indicating Warfarin for the rest of my life, the duration of which is partly in my hands, and partly not.  I'm getting weekly PT/INR tests, and they are in the range that doctors are happy with, so far.
I've been trained about vitamin K which counteracts the Warfarin, and many oils which enhance the warfarin effect on blood coagulation.  Given, the life sentence, the instructions and philosophy is to try and eat a consistent diet and the Warfarin dosage will be adjusted for my lifestyle/eating habits.

My doctor has recommended no more motorcycle driving, as an accident significantly increases the likelihood of death.
A helmet strike can result in a concussion (brain bruise) and without normal clotting ability, a brain hemorrhage that can kill.  The same is true for internal organs, and of course, cuts and tears of the circulatory system.  ("We got a bleeder here!", says the paramedic.)

My doctor has related seeing lots of Motorcycle injuries in the hospital (he hangs around there almost every day), and these injuries are far worse for motorcyclists than auto drivers.
I'm thinking his view may be jaundiced by his daily observations.  But, I just can't tell how conservative his leanings are.  I *think* he is just recommending the safest approach, as he does with almost all his diagnosing.

There is a $1000 test/study that can be done to determine if the issue is genetic, or some sort of treatable disease.  However, the warfarin diagnosis will unlikely be rescinded whether they find something or not.  So, the primary benefit of this study would be to alert relatives or offspring about a genetic disorder.   As, there are no kids (that I am aware of), it's just my two sisters that it may or may not help.  So, it's tough to get a handle on test merit/value.  :(

There is also the possibility that the drug simply counteracts/balances my Hyper-coagulation, and simply brings me back to normal bleed time.
There is a test for this, I learned.  They have a needle/knife with precise measurements that they stab you with and then time how long you bleed with a stopwatch.  Of, course this test is repeated several times, to establish a consistent database.  I couldn't help thinking about the similarities to applying leeches that were popular in medicine for a time.  :-\

Anyway, I was just wondering if any of you may have knowledge about people on warfarin that were in Motorcycle accidents.  Certainly, you can have a crash bad enough that it won't matter if Warfarin was involved.  I guess I'm just looking for experiences where Warfarin made a difference.  Or, if motorcyclists are just a devil may care populace who generally thumb their nose at ANY increased risk taking, just for the thrill of it.   ;D

In reality, we are all hostages to life, which WILL kill us all eventually.  I guess I just need to determined how much and how hard I can still poke the hostage taker in the eye before it's not worth his while to wait for the ransom.

Cheers,


 
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Motorcycles and warfarin
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2010, 12:25:00 PM »
I think you have the necessary perspective on the situation Lloyd. You can ride but you have to determine if TT wants to ride considering the info you have. I'm sure there are many anti-coag patients on bikes but I know of none. I'll check with the wife and see if she has encountered any as of yet. She has been in her current position for perhaps 4 months now. She deals with busted up warriors and retirees alike. I'm not on blood thinners but after I was hit head on I got back on the horse. I decided life was too short and it can end any time for any reason. We very seldom can take control of that aspect. With all that in mind I would like to say I'm so sorry to hear of this predicament and know you'll make the proper analytical based TT decision we've come to expect from our friend. 
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Motorcycles and warfarin
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2010, 12:43:24 PM »
After you explaination i remember working with a fellow who had the same condition, his blood would clot while they took a sample. Using your style of logic. If you have hyper clotting and you are brought to a clotting time equal to what is considered normal, why would you be at any more risk than anyone else?  

After my Prostate Cancer diagnosis, I realized that you do not have to be involved in risky behavior to become at risk. I don't now tempt fate to the extreme, but I find myself more willing to take reasonable risks, since I realize there is no place to hide.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 12:50:56 PM by BobbyR »
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline Uncle Ernie

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Re: Motorcycles and warfarin
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2010, 05:42:54 AM »
The reason you should not use rat poison is it's ground glass mixed with coumadin.  The glass starts the bleeding and the coumadin makes internal bleeding keep going.  The problem comes if a pet tries to catch/eat that rat.

I've been taking a blood thinner for years now.  It's i,portant to be consistant with your diet- esp vitamin K), and get a pro-time on a regular basis.  I've been down a couple of times;  Oh well.  Riding is about all I have these days.  I'm going to stay home a read a book?
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Motorcycles and warfarin
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2010, 06:14:02 AM »
Doctors can be over the top with precautions and sometimes they just plain get it wrong. You are well aware of what is going on so make an informed decision on your own, you still have to live.   When i was diagnosed with a liver disorder the doctors told me to get loads of rest and not to go out in the sun and do nothing strenuous , i did this for 2 years and was an anaemic mess that weighed about 55 kilo's. I decided that i was feeling really bad about myself and if all i was going to do was sit around waiting, either to die or get a transplant then i may as well enjoy myself. I started playing indoor cricket, then touch football then out door cricket, in the end i was playing and training 7 days a week {i was 28}. My weight went back to between 68 and 72 kilo's, i felt extremely good about myself and the best thing was that , in 1988 i was given around 5 years to live without a transplant, i had my transplant in 1999 and if i hadn't been in as good condition as i was i would have never made it that far. You do what is best for you Lloyd.......and good luck..

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Offline oldbiker

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Re: Motorcycles and warfarin
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2010, 02:13:18 AM »
After open heart surgery, I was told to take a 75mg dispersible aspirin every morning to help thin my blood. Maybe this is a suitable alternative. Ask your doctor!

Offline GammaFlat

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Re: Motorcycles and warfarin
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2010, 07:51:52 AM »
I recently saw that there was an excellent replacement for coumadin.  I don't recall the name but it's from England and does not require the frequent testing that "rat poison" does.  I'm sure it has similar effects to your bleeding, so it may not impact your decision on riding but it may make you feel better as the side effects are supposed to be "better" or diminished. 

I know a couple of people on thinners and 2 out of 3 of them whine incessantly about how it makes them feel.  The guy that says he "feels just fine" on thinners has a very consistent diet, doesn't drink and exercises (cardio).  The other two are negligent in those areas. 

Back to the question.. Yes, I think that riding a motorcycle is high risk in the first place and getting in a wreck while on coumadin will likely make the outcome worse.  It's a personal question.  Folks that ride bikes face a similar question every time that throw their leg over. 

Good luck with this situation TT. 
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Motorcycles and warfarin
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2010, 10:44:43 AM »
After open heart surgery, I was told to take a 75mg dispersible aspirin every morning to help thin my blood. Maybe this is a suitable alternative. Ask your doctor!

Thanks for the suggestion.  You just couldn't have known I am allergic to aspirin.

Even my mother didn't figure that out until after I left home to be in the Navy.  As a result, I have been diagnosed with measles 6 or 7 times by doctors.  My reactions create the same symptoms.   Real measles is a one time occurrence in a person's lifetime, of course.

Anyway, I'm thinking my concession to warfarin/doctors is that I won't be building any race bikes.   ;D

Cheers,

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Offline medic09

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Re: Motorcycles and warfarin
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2010, 10:55:49 AM »
TT, information-wise it sounds like you all have got it covered.  As you know, it will come down to your choice and what is highest on your list of priorities.  No matter what, I wish you well and pray that this will alleviate your problem.

Head bleeds are a particularly mysterious thing.  There are no useful predictors outside an experimental environment.  We see people with catastrophic closed head injuries with long-lasting sequelae from something innocuous like slipping on ice; and we see people who we are *sure* must have a serious internal injury and bleed based on mechanism (crashed bikes on the interstate/no helmet, or head-ons with a truck) who suffer almost no consequences.  I emphasize:  there is no predicting.

We do know there are risk factors like age or medications or previous injury; but we see plenty of bleeds in younger, healthy people whose cerebral vasculature anomoly is only discovered when they have the bleed that noone foresaw.

So, you have elevated risk with the Coumadin.  If you're older, that also increased risk.  In general, an 80 year old rider does not fare as well as a 20 year old from crash and injury of any sort.

I treat in the ER or transport head injuries frequently.  I am still surprised by who does and does not have serious complications.  But you have definitely graduated to the higher risk group.  So, just don't crash and it will all be cool.
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Offline Don R

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Re: Motorcycles and warfarin
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2010, 08:31:04 PM »
My brother is riding occasionally on coumadin. When his blood level is stable and he feels OK. He has had his share of motorcycle related injuries when younger but still loves to ride at 70.
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Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Motorcycles and warfarin
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2010, 11:49:46 AM »
TT,

You might wanna ask your healthcare provider about Plavix. I was on that for several years, while working as a police officer, along with all the associated physical altercations that ensue in this line of work. Never had a serious problem arise. I bruised easier, but nothing that would scare anyone.
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