Poll

How dumb was it for HD to kill Buell?

Not, they needed to pay the bills...
Eh, who's Buell?
Stupid
What the hell were they thinking???
At least I wont be buying a Harley product, now...

Author Topic: Erik Buell is back!  (Read 9854 times)

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Offline MaaseyRacer

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Re: Erik Buell is back!
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2010, 10:59:35 PM »
Harley has made more or less the same exact bikes for the last 40 years. When everyone else was innovating in the mid to late 60s Harley was pushing the AMA to make the rules favor side valve engines. Since then everyone else has pushed the limits in speed and handing and HD has, push the limits in chrome and volume.
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Offline KB02

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Re: Erik Buell is back!
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2010, 03:39:08 AM »
Harley has made more or less the same exact bikes for the last 40 years. When everyone else was innovating in the mid to late 60s Harley was pushing the AMA to make the rules favor side valve engines. Since then everyone else has pushed the limits in speed and handing and HD has, push the limits in chrome and volume.
+1   That has been my biggest complaint against Harley The have proven that are capable of so much more (V-Rod drive train is AWESOME), but they just stick with the same old 30 year old stuff. Harley's mistake was buying out Erik Buell in the first place.
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Offline CBGhia

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Re: Erik Buell is back!
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2010, 05:23:56 AM »
Harley just came out with the new Sportster 48.  I really like it, but I feel too big for the sportster line.  I really like the look of the bike though and may still consider it. I'm only 6'  210lbs, they should stretch the 1200 sportster frame by 2-3 inches and leave the 883 sportster small.

Harley has helped the feel of the Sportsters with the Nightster series, and that is apealing to younger buyers who do not want to pony up 16 or 18k for a fatboy.
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Offline 754

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Re: Erik Buell is back!
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2010, 05:58:10 AM »
 Maasey, I have seen you bring up the 40 years  exact bike thing before.. perhaps you should actually look at one..

 FWIW 40 yrs back;
 Big twin, = iron barrels points ign, single cam, trans seperated from engine by frame member, 5 pce lower end , 4 spd, chain drive...
 Sportster = iron barrels, 4 spd, generator charging, carbureted, wire wheels, chain drive, etc..

 Now how is that like "same exact bikes" ?
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Erik Buell is back!
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2010, 07:05:37 AM »
Harley is stuck making big twins with traditional looks and it has worked very well for them up till now. The V Rod is a great looking bike, but it does not sell very well.

OK you are the Chairman of HD and you realize:

The Japanese and Europeans have all of the market share in the sportbike market. It would take years to produce a sportbike and once you did, who would buy it. Your key demographic is older and not sportbike centric. Your younger people sportbike crowd already has their favorites.  You have no where to go.

Your key demographic is aging quickly and arthritis and other conditions will cause them to give up riding. I hear they may be working on a Trike type vehicle to fill that need.






 
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Offline fastbroshi

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Re: Erik Buell is back!
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2010, 07:50:17 AM »
   You're talking about in America only I'm sure.  Just doing a quick search, for 2006 when the economy was really booming,  Harley moved over 250k bikes worldwide.  Motorcycle-usa.com reported back in January of this year that Honda moved over 15 MILLION bikes worldwide in '09, despite the economy woes.  This number is within about 1% of 2008's numbers.

   It's obvious Honda's definitely got a more worldwide vision and this is helping them sidestep fiscal problems stemming from other markets.  Harley just doesn't have the breadth of business that a company like Honda has to absorb what's been happening as easily as they have.  I doubt they sell 25k bikes a year outside of the U.S.
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Offline Little_Horse

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Re: Erik Buell is back!
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2010, 08:27:04 AM »
Honestly Harley hasn't diversified like they needed to in order to weather economy woes. Basically all Harleys are a luxery item none of them speak to me as economically feasible rides. Mostly because of their pricing. The rest of the world buys more sensibly then the US and that is why Honda does well world wide. They have bikes that make sense, and the have bikes that don't make sense to sell in the US so they have things covered better. I don't think Harley has an excuse. When things where great they should have been putting some of that surplus into new products and ideas. Maybe they can't now and maybe it is too late but 5 yrs ago they could and should have.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Erik Buell is back!
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2010, 09:27:26 AM »
Honda started making small cc bikes in the beginning and continue to do so, they are an accepted manufacturer of all size vehicles. Could you imagine a  125 cc Harley?. They did turn out he Sprite and some other specialty bikes at one time which failed.
I think they are painted into a corner decades ago, and whatever number of people World Wide want a big twin that will be their market from now on.
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Offline Damfino

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Re: Erik Buell is back!
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2010, 12:46:44 PM »
I hear they may be working on a Trike type vehicle to fill that need.

Already been making them since 2009 Bobby.... ;)



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Offline MaaseyRacer

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Re: Erik Buell is back!
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2010, 01:35:40 PM »
Maasey, I have seen you bring up the 40 years  exact bike thing before.. perhaps you should actually look at one..

 FWIW 40 yrs back;
 Big twin, = iron barrels points ign, single cam, trans seperated from engine by frame member, 5 pce lower end , 4 spd, chain drive...
 Sportster = iron barrels, 4 spd, generator charging, carbureted, wire wheels, chain drive, etc..

 Now how is that like "same exact bikes" ?

You just made my point. They have made small adjustments to where the rest of the motorcycle industry is at. The items you listed half of them are the same.  HD used have models like that KR that at least handled, and they were out racing. However, even then they were not growing and they were trying to maintain what they were instead of attempting to grow. While Triumph, BSA, and the rest of the Brit bikes were coming out with 500cc singles that were winning, HD instead of developing and engineering new engines and technology begged the AMA for an extra 250cc just to stay competitive. Then once the japanese bikes hit Harley had to beg the AMA to outlaw overhead cams.

They are in the same boat now, their bikes do not handle, are ridiculously heavy, look awful. It took them until 2002 to bring out a fuel injection bike, which is still their only fuel injected bike.  On top of that look how much displacement they have had to use to create the power that they create. So they have electronic ignition, most of the motorcycle industry has had that since the early 80s. I think it is time for Harley to look at Triumph as an example. Triumph has some amazing machines that are well developed and they cover a broad spectrum. Triumph has stuck to their roots and has kept the parallel twins, thankfully they re-developed them. Triumph has also introduced triples into their line up and this is where Harley needs to start taking notes. Harley should keep their v twin options, but should be producing new engines and bikes to bring in new customers.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Erik Buell is back!
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2010, 01:47:56 PM »
I hear they may be working on a Trike type vehicle to fill that need.

Already been making them since 2009 Bobby.... ;)



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Offline Grnrngr

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Re: Erik Buell is back!
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2010, 03:24:43 PM »
When did Harley NOT make a trike? when I was a kid in the 60s, they were everywhere..
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Offline Damfino

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Re: Erik Buell is back!
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2010, 03:27:51 PM »
When did Harley NOT make a trike? when I was a kid in the 60s, they were everywhere..

I believe Harley quit making the 'Servi-car' trike in 1974. Everything since then up to 2009 were kits produced to turn your Harley into a trike.
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Offline Joel

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Re: Erik Buell is back!
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2010, 03:29:16 PM »
My bad, he evdently snuck back in with street legal bikes too.
http://www.buell.com/en_us/tools/compare-bikes/

Where is he sourcing engines, Helicon and Thunderstorm?

Are they rebadged HD or something more different?

Will there be 2011 models or are they finishing up the parts on hand?

Offline vanillagorilla

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Re: Erik Buell is back!
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2010, 04:36:53 PM »
Just to clarify... HD had FI starting in 1995. It was awful. The first DECENT FI came out in 2002. Their whole line is fuel injected now and has been since like 2007 or 8... In fact, HD stole the FI system Buell R&Ded with 10k dollars of HD money. Turns out it was waaay better than anything they had come up with, with god knows how much money to spend. They definitely aren't the same bikes from the 60s, but they are far from perfect! I would much rather have almost any other bike. And I am(was, cert probably expired) an HD certified tech.
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Offline winnipeg550guy

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Re: Erik Buell is back!
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2010, 05:10:35 PM »
 Erik Buell should be thankful HD dumped him, now he won't have to sit back and watch HD destroy a great product anymore.
 It was only a matter of time before we saw the first Buell FXTLMNOP Billet Bagger.
 I'm glad to see he's back in control of the Buell name.
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Erik Buell is back!
« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2010, 05:37:50 PM »
Has anyone here ever ridden a Buell? I've ridden a couple and didn't think much of them, and as someone here previously said, Harley's biggest mistake was bailing them out a few years ago when they were going under, so when Harley realised that they were sucking much needed dollars out of Harley's bottom line during the US's greatest financial crisis since the great depression, they cut Buell, which was no great loss in my opinion, lots of people liked them, the problem was that nobody actually bought them.

Comparing Honda to Harley is dumb. Honda will build anything with an engine in it if they can see a market, they build everything from weed wackers to airplanes, and their motorcycle production ranges from cheap scooters for their Asian market right through to two wheeled cars for the well-heeled American touring set. Harley is a niche-market bike, and other niche-market manufacturers like Triumph, BMW, Ducati etc (who are all suffering due to the financial downturn) are still very envious of Harley's sales figures.

Should Harley diversify to compete with Asian manufacturers? No. For a start, they'd have to move their manufacturing base off-shore to capitalize on cheap labour costs in countries like China and Taiwan to be able to introduce a new unproven product to compete with known products (Honda has been manufacturing small single cylinder scooters with virtually no major mechanical changes since the 1960's, so it's not just Harley that been selling the same old stuff, as some folks here would contend) and what mid-sized sportsbikes or multi-cylinder tourers could Harley build that the Japanese manufacturers couldn't?

Triumph has been struggling with it's sports bike range since John Bloor re-birthed the Triumph brand in the early 1990's in competition with the Japanese big four, their bikes are fine, just not outstanding, and Triumph are slowly moving away from sports bikes in favour of naked bikes and modern replica's of the brand's iconic twins, once again relying on nostalgia to sell with models reminiscent of it's glory days, like "Bonneville" and "Tiger", not to mention another old Triumph/BSA crossover, the "Rocket III". I suppose you could argue that this is "diversification", in reverse, in that the "New Triumph" started manufacturing modern sports bikes, then took a step backwards to build "old school" vertical twins.  

Harley's sales figures will rise and fall depending on the state of the economy, and like many other US companies, they may occasionally need Government assistance, and they may need to "rationalize" their operation to suit the current market environment. No biggie, once the economy picks up again, the folks who are currently being very careful with their money will be happy to start buying luxury goods again, and Harley's sales will pick up again. Over the last 100 years or so, Harley has weathered the economy, a couple of world wars and the "Japanese motorcycle invasion" that killed the British motorcycle manufacturers dead, and they'll still be going well in years to come, building something a little bit different from the majority of bikes available, worldwide.

I think that's great, the last thing I want to see is the Japanese "Big Four" taking over all motorcycle manufacturing and dictating what we'll all be riding in the future, after all, it's the "niche market" motorcycle manufacturers that are keeping the big four on their toes.  ;D
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Offline Grnrngr

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Re: Erik Buell is back!
« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2010, 05:45:58 PM »
heh..if they did move to China, I might be able to afford a Hahlee Daviesan   :D
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Erik Buell is back!
« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2010, 06:07:40 PM »
Honda has taken a few missteps along the way. The Fury is probably going down as a flop. As Terry points out Honda makes all types of Vehicles, so clinker or two gets lost in the noise. They will continue to crank out Cubs for the third world. I had one Indian fella who showed me his new pimped out Honda, 17 Hp. He told me he found a Country road and opened her up, get her up to 45mph and the wind was trying to tear him off the seat. I told him to be careful, I did not tell him, I start closing my visor at that speed.

 My company shut down the motorcycle plant in Nebraska, took production back overseas and converted the plant it to a Railcar manufacturing facility.

I have been to a few dealers lately and there is nothing that stands out. The crotch rockets all look alike, the twins look like Harley clones. As Terry said. Honda, Kawi and the other Motorcycle makers have enough other products to wait out the economy, Harley on the other hand is a one trick Pony so they will bleed a bit more.

I do not dislike Harleys at all, I think nothing has a better riding position from a visual point of view, and they sound very nice.  I just don;t like the people who ride them very much. 
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Offline cb650PK

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Re: Erik Buell is back!
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2010, 06:11:21 PM »
Harley was loosing few milion a year on Buell. It's going to cost them min. 125 milion to shut Buell down,(Rotax contract) perhaps as much as 300 mil. There were two factions in Harley leadership, one was big supporter and the other hated Buell. Once the golfer, who newer rode bike before(true) became CEO, guess which won.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Erik Buell is back!
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2010, 07:11:52 PM »
Has anyone here ever ridden a Buell? I've ridden a couple and didn't think much of them,
I rode one a few years ago. I had been thinking about buying one, and a guy came by my shop to get a muffler bracket welded, and he let me take it for a short spin. Honestly, I wasn't impressed, and remember thinking my Honda would eat it alive. :D
This new Buell 1190RR does have some VERY impressive statistics:
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93 ft/lbs torque @ 9,500 RPM.  :o
360 lbs with no fuel.  :o
$44,900. :o :o :o :o

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Offline 754

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Re: Erik Buell is back!
« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2010, 07:32:08 PM »
Maasey, all the things I listed are no longer production parts.
 H-D had E ignition by 1980, in case you were wondering when they started using it..

 Terry, I agree with a lot of what you posted, I dont think they are going away.
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Offline greasy j

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Re: Erik Buell is back!
« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2010, 10:44:08 PM »
I think Buell will be much better off on his own if he can make it work.

as far as harley it's a never ending debate, people who like them have personal, emotional reasons to do so. they are obviously not up to par with modern standards and are just living on marketing and the image they have built up. but hardcore harley guys won't ride anything else. they don't care if it has better whatever.

but those guys will die off eventually. I'm youngish, 35, and I think the sportster line has some potential for younger buyers. I think the 48 looks really cool, unlike most of their bikes which look like they are going uphill all the time. if they can build some reliable standards with good power to weight ratios I would consider getting one. but the price has to be reasonable. I refuse to pay more than something is worth because of a name. and it must be functional. motorcycles, for me, are forms of transportation. not toys.

even my engine overhaul teacher who loves harleys says they are basically tractors with sub par engineering. what I don't get is how they can not be doing well when they charge so much more than comparable bikes.

on another note I would love to see a competitive American sport/race bike. motogp and sbk has riders from italy, UK, japan, spain- all places bikes are made. but riders only from the US. that's sad. how about an american on an american bike winning races. shouldn't be that far fetched. maybe Buell can fix this.

now if harley makes something that looks like this...

Offline scottly

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Re: Erik Buell is back!
« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2010, 11:06:44 PM »
Actually, Hogly made a similar looking bike in the late '70s; the CR 1000. I know of one that is for sale, by the original owner. The best looking bike HD ever made was the XR750 flat-tracker, IMO, but they weren't sold to the general public. They did produce an XR1000, but it didn't come close, other than the color scheme on the fuel tank.
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Offline greasy j

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Re: Erik Buell is back!
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2010, 11:15:05 PM »
the cr does kick ass, as well as the xr750. it seems like they would notice that it's a lot of people's fave harley...