Topic: Erik Buell is back!

[Ichiban 4]

Some very good points Re: what makes Harley..Harley..et al.  Don't disagree with most of it.  Am impressed most though by points made by Terry..Ron..Scottly..754.

Here's what my 50+ years being around..watching how Harley has "evolved" bring to my mind (includes Erick Buell's situation a little too..I feel):

1.) I see a lot of parallels with what HD is doing..and what has caused Detroit auto makers difficulties..for the past 35 years (BTW: anyone see where Pontiac has ceased as a GM product today?)  2.) Lest we forget..that HD's market is primarily accessory - branding driven..not on bike sales per se  3.) In this day and age..just how long do any of us think that a V-twin pushrod engine is going to be competitive with what else is available?

Those are just the main thoughts that come to mind for me.  Another thing that I feel often gets overlooked in comparing Harley to Honda (the idea seemed to be briefly touched upon previously in mentioning Honda's diverse offerings in so many other areas of power equipment)..that being that Honda sells more motorcycles than any other brand..including the other three Japanese manufacturers.  Comparing Honda to HD..IMHO..in terms of sales or appeal..is nowadays like comparing Toyota to say Hummer..or GMC trucks; not even in the same league.

I appreciate the sentiments of the HD and Buell defenders..but feel it's mainly coming from nostalgic and/or sentimental concerns..not from real world situations.  As an increasingly "old-timer"..I'm not terribly optimistic that HD will be around in another 20 - 30 years (excepting for antique/classic restorers).  Am also starting to think that many of the reciprocating internal combustion rides will be replaced by electrics..or hybrids...of some sort.

Think the world is a changing fast around us folks..and that includes the technology and reality of bike riding.

Al / Ichi

[KB02]

Maasey, I have seen you bring up the 40 years  exact bike thing before.. perhaps you should actually look at one..

 FWIW 40 yrs back;
 Big twin, = iron barrels points ign, single cam, trans seperated from engine by frame member, 5 pce lower end , 4 spd, chain drive...
 Sportster = iron barrels, 4 spd, generator charging, carbureted, wire wheels, chain drive, etc..

 Now how is that like "same exact bikes" ?

1980 Harley full dresser:


2010 Harley full dresser:


Okay, that's only 30 years, but still... I mean, COME ON, the company only produces, what, four frames? All the models are just a matter of what you add onto the frame? Yes, they have an economic model that works and if it works don't change it. I get that. But if I want to buy a 30 year old bike, I'll buy another SOHC that will probably be a bit more reliable and handle better.

[greasy j]

@ those full dressers above^ why not just buy a minivan? maybe someday I'll feel like I need all that crap on my ride, too. but I seriously doubt it.

Am also starting to think that many of the reciprocating internal combustion rides will be replaced by electrics..or hybrids...of some sort.

Think the world is a changing fast around us folks..and that includes the technology and reality of bike riding.

Al / Ichi

I hope that we can get switched over to electric before we run out of gas and absolutely have to. show some foresight for once.

that way there will be gas left over for old bike/car enthusiasts to have fun on the weekends. ride your electric to work and your combuster on special occasions.

I had a nightmare once where me and my buddies were hangin in the garage lookin at my old 750 and talking about how we wished we had saved just a few gallons of gas so we could take it out one more time... horrible, horrible nightmare.

[MCRider]

GreasyJ: you may have heard this story already and you may not believe it, but here goes. You were born at or shortly after the great OPEC Oil Embargo of 1974. I lived it everyday, every other day rationing, long lines for fuel, etc. I was driving a delivery truck. But the glaring observation to me is, we were blasted with press about how at then current consumption levels, there were only 10 years of reserves left, and we were in big big doo doo.

Now 35 years later, with consumption up many times over, there are tankers parked in the water waiting to offload.

You'll have plenty of gas for your lifetime...I think. Anyway, I'm not worried.

[754]

Hey those dressers look the same.. in the way that a 80 Goldwing looks a 2000 to a person that does not ride them..

 I find it a bit amusing, that anyone riding an outdated bike model, that is redundant by todays standards.. and I am assuming most of the posters on the forum are into sohc Hondas.. has any wiggle room left to slam other makes for being outdated... hmmmm..

[Terry in Australia]

Hey those dressers look the same.. in the way that a 80 Goldwing looks a 2000 to a person that does not ride them..

 I find it a bit amusing, that anyone riding an outdated bike model, that is redundant by todays standards.. and I am assuming most of the posters on the forum are into sohc Hondas.. has any wiggle room left to slam other makes for being outdated... hmmmm..

Ha ha, I have to agree with Frank on this one, and KB answered his own criticism of Harley's perceived lack of progress with his last line, "if I want to buy a 30 year old bike, I'll buy another SOHC".

You see, when I was 20 I had a CB750K1, (which I loved) but I also really wanted a Harley Electra Glide for long trips. My mate Davey had one (an ex-Milwaulkie Police bike) and I loved it, but with an impending marriage, followed by a couple of kids, I couldn't afford it.

Now I'm 50 I can afford that Electra Glide, and the good thing is I can walk into my local HD dealer and buy one new that has a few enhancement's over the old shovel-head model, but is essentially the same bike I wanted way back then.

On the other hand, If I want to buy a new Honda CB750K1, the best I could do is settle for Honda's new CB1000 that (although a great bike in it's own right) is marketed cynically as a "retro" bike aimed at the CB750 generation, and has absolutely nothing in common with our old SOHC4's. Of course, I could have bought that mint Sandcast K0 on EBay recently for $42K, but it wasn't new either, and the Harley is a better long distance tourer. Cheers, Terry.

[fastbroshi]

  3.) In this day and age..just how long do any of us think that a V-twin pushrod engine is going to be competitive with what else is available?
Al / Ichi

   Thought I'd add something here, I know this thread is getting a bit diluted...but anyway.  I remember seeing the ZR1 when it first came out and I thought the pushrod GM V8 was on its way out.  Boy was I wrong.  Just look at the V8s they have in the Vette racers now and how reliable, modern and powerful they are in their production counterparts. 

   If Harley really wanted to modernize their engine lineup, they'd man up and go racing w/o any, shall we say, exceptions.  Honda's shown over the years, on the two and four wheeled fronts, this is the most effecient way to improve the breed.  Are they just too greedy to shell out the money?   Now the economy would be a good excuse, but I don't see them doing anything of consequence in a decent timeframe without it.

[db22]

Your right Frank but what about the "trend" buyers.....there are piles of them, and as we all know, trends change...

Mick

That is right -- what about the dentists and accountants who bought a Harley because they were cool, ten years ago?  I bet they all want some 21st-century superbike now.  I worked for a Motor Company subcontractor in Millywaukay for 20 years, and watched HD nearly die, then come waaaay back from the dead.  They came back by selling the image, not the machines.  I have my doubts that they can pull off that trick again.  They can't seem to diversify, so they just slap the badge on licensed products and hope the money keeps rolling in.  I wish 'em luck.  I had friends that worked there, probably still do.

[333]

You all are missing one point of view.  For a lot of the sport bike crowd, the popular bikes are the ones that have a good season on the track.  Say Honda comes out with a bike and dominates the season.  Their sales increase.  The next year, Kawasaki counters with a new one and does the same thing.  It's been like that since the birth of the superbike.  Harley and Buell had a hand full of individual good finishes over their entire history, but could never really compete with the Japanese.

[cb650PK]

Harley Davidson is great marketing company, they just don't build very good motorcycles. As the bikes are only accessory to what they really sell - image, they do not have to be any better. Least fun bikes I have ever ridden were Harley's.

[cb650]

On mythbusters Jamie drove his buell on the tablecloth episode. 


 On a side note why is the media making a big deal about pontiac closing up now.  I heard about it last year.   Acually over a year ago in one of the racing series. ALMS or rolex cant remember.  The teams that was running pontiacs in 09 all went to chevys for the 10 season because gm wasnt going to support something they didnt make.

[754]

cb650PK
 They have been building bikes for around  105 years..

 Whether they are as you say "they just dont build very good motorcycles" or not , they have been supplying a demand for longer than anyone else.

 When it comes to explaining to owners of modern bikes, why I am happy with a Sohc 750.. I will borrow a line from the H-D crowd.. if I have to explain, you wont understand..

 I am sometimes surprised how hard it is for Japanese riders to get it sometimes..  H-Ds, and Beemer boxers, are not popular because of their up to date technology, rather they are machines some people enjoy riding/owning..

[greasy j]

cb650PK
 They have been building bikes for around  105 years..

 Whether they are as you say "they just dont build very good motorcycles" or not , they have been supplying a demand for longer than anyone else.

 When it comes to explaining to owners of modern bikes, why I am happy with a Sohc 750.. I will borrow a line from the H-D crowd.. if I have to explain, you wont understand..

 I am sometimes surprised how hard it is for Japanese riders to get it sometimes..  H-Ds, and Beemer boxers, are not popular because of their up to date technology, rather they are machines some people enjoy riding/owning..

you're right, but that doesn't mean they can't be improved.

and those people who enjoy riding them are going to be gone someday. any company that wants to survive over the years has to change and adapt.

I don't consider myself a japanese rider, or cruiser guy or sport guy. I just love bikes. anything that catches my eye or impresses me with it's engineering. I want harley and buell to survive, with Harley making good reliable standards and touring bikes and buell making screaming fast sport bikes. and both companies making a few bikes that don't fit into easy categories. a lot of the best bikes are in their own category.

maybe the marketing guys' pigeonholing the bikes into these narrow categories is part of the problem.

bikes are very efficient forms of transpo, not just toys for racing around or riding to the nudie bar decked in tassles. there are guys who ride to work every day, like me. maybe they should emphasize the utilitarian nature of the bikes instead of the 'get you laid' factor. even the aftermarket companies. go to new enough, moto superstore, bike bandit, etc. the first thing they want you to pick is cruiser or sport. ridiculous! as if there is only 2 uses for a motorcycle and 2 varieties. and I'm shopping for a jacket liner ya bastids!

ad/marketing guys have created these narrow categories and chosen to sell bikes as toys. I think that kind of thinking can hold them back from selling bikes to the masses, not just enthusiasts. maybe Harley can survive by producing sensible standards that everyone will want to ride to work every day. make them affordable and sell lots. they can still make the cadillac version for richer guys.

I still think the sportster has a lot of potential, but one prob is among HD guys it is derided and called a 'chick bike'. which is insulting to the bikes and chicks. it used to be the cool one, HD's hot rod.

the 48 is super cool. with mid controls and good tires it would be perfect. I think, not sure how it rides yet... but I will find out in a couple weeks at the Cycle World show! last year I test rode the xr1200. didn't come back for 1/2 hour. told them I got lost. that thing rips! if the 48 was sold for 8k like most other bikes of similar capabilities, I think I might go into debt for one.

[Ichiban 4]

Some very good points Re: what makes Harley..Harley..et al.  Don't disagree with most of it.  Am impressed most though by points made by Terry..Ron..Scottly..754.

Here's what my 50+ years being around..watching how Harley has "evolved" bring to my mind (includes Erick Buell's situation a little too..I feel):

1.) I see a lot of parallels with what HD is doing..and what has caused Detroit auto makers difficulties..for the past 35 years (BTW: anyone see where Pontiac has ceased as a GM product today?)  2.) Lest we forget..that HD's market is primarily accessory - branding driven..not on bike sales per se  3.) In this day and age..just how long do any of us think that a V-twin pushrod engine is going to be competitive with what else is available?

Those are just the main thoughts that come to mind for me.  Another thing that I feel often gets overlooked in comparing Harley to Honda (the idea seemed to be briefly touched upon previously in mentioning Honda's diverse offerings in so many other areas of power equipment)..that being that Honda sells more motorcycles than any other brand..including the other three Japanese manufacturers.  Comparing Honda to HD..IMHO..in terms of sales or appeal..is nowadays like comparing Toyota to say Hummer..or GMC trucks; not even in the same league.

I appreciate the sentiments of the HD and Buell defenders..but feel it's mainly coming from nostalgic and/or sentimental concerns..not from real world situations.  As an increasingly "old-timer"..I'm not terribly optimistic that HD will be around in another 20 - 30 years (excepting for antique/classic restorers).  Am also starting to think that many of the reciprocating internal combustion rides will be replaced by electrics..or hybrids...of some sort.

Think the world is a changing fast around us folks..and that includes the technology and reality of bike riding.

Al / Ichi

_________________________________________________________

Well..I don't want to get into another pissing match about the merits or shortcomings of Harley (or Buell bikes..which still is a Harley to me in certain respects)..but just wanted to say that I've been around them all my life..rode them when there wasn't much else cheaply available (read: used)..and feel that there are two basic reasons I don't like them.
 
1.) To me they represent most of what I feel can be F'd up about bike riding: outlaw bikers..with machismo attitudes. 2.) And (being a product myself of the late 50's..through 60's society in America)..cops that have the same machismo attitudes..only who are "on the other side of the badge". There was another meaning to the use of the term "Hog" as it applied to Harley's..and that was that it was "Pigs" that rode them.

Okay..okay..let's not get our panties in a twist here.  I'm just relating my personal feelings from having lived through the era (I'm really quite a bit mellower about the Harley stuff nowadays).  It just seems to me though..that rather than try to clean-up that image of the bad boy biker..Harley has actually tried to capitalize on it.  I see most of Harley's PR problems..as a case of the "chickens coming home to roost".  And I'm not one to feel too sympathetic to folks that continually seem to be screwing themselves.

Now Honda on the other hand...(guess I'm showing my biases here).

Rock on!

Ichi

[CaféElite]

You guys need to educate up a bit on Buell before talking out your arse. A lot of the majors flaws at buell was caused by HD and their so called market research team. Requiring buell to create the blast which he didnt not want to do, killing the turbo XB12, allowing the 1125r come out as a half fairing bike vs full which Eric pushed for and probably the biggest issue was not allowing buell to be sold outside of HD franchisees.

Buell was one year from deploy a full fairing American street bike that could play with the likes of ducati or the asian 4. HD spent more money closing buell then they ever invested into them which is even more mind blowing when you read that Eric had bombardier ready to buy the company two days after he was told from HD of the closing but they gave the middle finger.

Not everyone is going to agree on the looks of a bike or the way it rides so im not going to try to convince anyone there.  To me its the combination of up to date chassis and what they did with the HD v-twin that made the XB line so amazing. I love fast bikes, I love going fast but to be honest anything on the street over 110mph is a waste 90% of the time. After riding a lot of bikes I have yet to find a better daily rider then my XB lightning. The Seating position is perfect, the handling is amazing and its power is right where it needs to be for what it was meant for. Very few bikes will put a smirk on your face under 100mph like an XB. Its gets frustrating when people try to compare an XB to the rockets that are out there.. it was a bike built for the back roads instead of the track. 

When it comes to the 1125 series it has zero in common with anything HD has or ever has done out of the XB frames and even then it was different. Buell was really its own bike on the 1125.

All the other gibberish about HD in this thread doesnt matter to me since im not a cruiser fan. I do like the new sportster but typical HD they have over priced it.. Then again there are plenty of sheep spending the money to be cool and honestly hats off to HD or any company to get their money.

Obviously I ride a buell and hopefully in a year have another that is if I dont get suckered into the new MV F3 (I have 6 hondas as well).

There are some really good articles out there where erik and others have explained how it all went down..  Try and find the two articles in the may issue of cycle world. I will never view HD the same again..

Here are some recent happenings with Erik.. The guy is super cool in my book, glad we still have people like this innovating in the states.

http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2010/10/erik-buell-on-the-1190rs-ibm-moon-suits-and-the-future-of-the-american-sportsbike/

What the future sport bike will be based off...
http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2010/10/details-erik-buell-racing-1190rr-b/

[wannabridin]

"All vehicles are for track use only and may not be registered to ride on public roads."

TOO BAD!!!  that 1190 would RIP!!! 

[greasy j]

Here are some recent happenings with Erik.. The guy is super cool in my book, glad we still have people like this innovating in the states.

http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2010/10/erik-buell-on-the-1190rs-ibm-moon-suits-and-the-future-of-the-american-sportsbike/

What the future sport bike will be based off...
http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2010/10/details-erik-buell-racing-1190rr-b/

cool in my book as well. we share some pages.

I'm going to school for mechanical engineering and he's def one of my inspirations, or maybe example would be a better word. he shows what one guy can do.

sadly, this story also shows how a group of suits who could care less about anything other than the bottom line can stifle that one man. many great thinkers, artists, etc have been crushed by short sighted greedy bastards.

soichiro honda for one, but he refused to give up. looks like buell won't either.