Topic: Man, you guys are going to kill me.

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Sheik, if you're taking a poll, I vote for the vintage style fairing. Aerodynamics are more important with an electric vehicle.
Lucky, please shut the #$%* up....

And totally off topic too. He can make his own thread and see how many people feed the troll.

This bike is shaping up nicely. Event though it will be a nice project and an interesting to see how it turns out, I doubt it will be as useful as a gas bike.

But that is ok, same thing is true of every new technology: what use is a baby?

Useful is a tough word to define. Considering it's range is within the average commute, and it's charge time is 2 hours, it could make a very useful commuter bike. It's not suited for all Sunday canyon runs, but that's what a gas bike is for.

I'm also excited for the sheer lack of maintenance an electric drive train provides. With only one real moving part, the only maintenance I'll have to worry about is charging the bike and lubricating the chain.

[fastbroshi]

Maybe I missed it, but did you say what you anticipate the range might be?

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Between 40 and 50 miles depending on how you drive.

[Bob3050]

I'm really watching this build with great interest. It just seems to me that this technology is going to continue to advance in leaps and bounds. One question, please, about performance and range. Will it maintain performance through the full charge cycle or does the performance drop off drastically as the charge is diminished. I am pretty ignorant of the actual workings of this system.
Bob

[Retro Rocket]

Between 40 and 50 miles depending on how you drive.

Maybe you could put a solar panel on the back of your jacket....   No really, there are new panels called, sickle or sikle cell solar panels, they are flexable and very thin {can be put on glass}, you could plug your jacket into your batteries and improve your range....

http://www.nature.com/news/nanoparticle-solar-cells-make-light-work-1.9299

[Rgconner]

Sheik, if you're taking a poll, I vote for the vintage style fairing. Aerodynamics are more important with an electric vehicle.
Lucky, please shut the #$%* up....

And totally off topic too. He can make his own thread and see how many people feed the troll.

This bike is shaping up nicely. Event though it will be a nice project and an interesting to see how it turns out, I doubt it will be as useful as a gas bike.

But that is ok, same thing is true of every new technology: what use is a baby?

Useful is a tough word to define. Considering it's range is within the average commute, and it's charge time is 2 hours, it could make a very useful commuter bike. It's not suited for all Sunday canyon runs, but that's what a gas bike is for.

I'm also excited for the sheer lack of maintenance an electric drive train provides. With only one real moving part, the only maintenance I'll have to worry about is charging the bike and lubricating the chain.

I don't disagree. And believe me, I think your bike and idea are stunning as engineering design and art.

However, in a more broad sense...

If 40 -50 miles was enough, and by-the-math it is, electric cars would be more popular.

So there is a psychological factor here. People EXPECT more from a car, and I think from a motorcycle as well.

Even though modern scooters are as capable as any sub 750 motorcycle, and even more if you look at the new BMW and Aprillas. Heck, my 250GTS has better range than my CB550!
 
However a more classic scooter.... like a Modern Vespa GTS250/300 with the wide waist for the batteries or an older Lambretta with the boxier back, would be more likely candidates for a first go.

Not because of any logical reason, but because the expectation is a sub 50 mile range for a scooter, despite the fact that people do long range rides on scooters. Even old ones! See here http://www.scootercannonball.com/results/2010Updates.php

And they have good storage, better than anything but a full bagger. A shopping cart of food is no problem at all on the GTS250, unless it is all 1 gallon jugs of milk.

Sadly, most of the first attempts at making an electric Vespa focus on 50cc performance, not 250/300 class performance.

Maybe it is just the inescapable math of current battery and motor limitations: you get 50 miles, no matter what you do.

But the public paradoxically might be willing to accept a scooter with that limitation over a motorcycle or car... because they see it as less capable, even though it is not.

[Syscrush]

But the public paradoxically might be willing to accept a scooter with that limitation over a motorcycle or car... because they see it as less capable, even though it is not.

I think that the success/popularity of scooter-style electric bicycles in urban areas where they're permitted by law fits well with your conjecture.

[Retro Rocket]

Electric cars are already getting 100 miles+ out of a single charge, this makes them perfect for city dwellers and round town running...

[Rgconner]

Electric cars are already getting 100 miles+ out of a single charge, this makes them perfect for city dwellers and round town running...

Which ones? The Leaf is the only production one I know of that is widely available. Consumer Reports says it is more like 65, and in cold conditions, 19!

The Tesla gets more than 200, but then there are only 2000 or so ever built, at $110K+ so it is hard to count that.

Believe me, I want them to work. The best bet for the next real energy source will be electric generating: Fusion, Geothermal, solar, whatever it is, it is electric.

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I don't disagree. And believe me, I think your bike and idea are stunning as engineering design and art.

However, in a more broad sense...

If 40 -50 miles was enough, and by-the-math it is, electric cars would be more popular.

So there is a psychological factor here. People EXPECT more from a car, and I think from a motorcycle as well.

Even though modern scooters are as capable as any sub 750 motorcycle, and even more if you look at the new BMW and Aprillas. Heck, my 250GTS has better range than my CB550!
 
However a more classic scooter.... like a Modern Vespa GTS250/300 with the wide waist for the batteries or an older Lambretta with the boxier back, would be more likely candidates for a first go.

Not because of any logical reason, but because the expectation is a sub 50 mile range for a scooter, despite the fact that people do long range rides on scooters. Even old ones! See here http://www.scootercannonball.com/results/2010Updates.php

And they have good storage, better than anything but a full bagger. A shopping cart of food is no problem at all on the GTS250, unless it is all 1 gallon jugs of milk.

Sadly, most of the first attempts at making an electric Vespa focus on 50cc performance, not 250/300 class performance.

Maybe it is just the inescapable math of current battery and motor limitations: you get 50 miles, no matter what you do.

But the public paradoxically might be willing to accept a scooter with that limitation over a motorcycle or car... because they see it as less capable, even though it is not.

Range anxiety really is the killer for electric vehicles at this point in battery technology. And you're totally right about the expectations for cars and motorcycles. People use for both utility and pure pleasure, and they have to be able to provide both. It was a hard pill for me to swallow when I did all my calculations and got a real world range of less than 50 miles, but my excitement for the technology and the opportunity to do something different is what ultimately drives me. That's why EV people are kind of crazy eco-hippies and nerds, because they're the only ones truly willing to deal with the high initial cost and limited range.

I hope that the interest in the technology persists and more and more big players join the fray. Our main limitation right now is obviously energy storage, and you hear about development of new technologies every day but none of it trickles down to guys like me, which is frustrating. Hell, the do-it-yourself guys like me have to deal with getting batteries from China because no American manufacturers want to deal with hobbyists. It breaks my heart that my big battery investment has poorly translated English on the covers ("Eco-Driving Becoming Reality")....

Inherently the drivetrains are frighteningly efficient. The amount of energy stored in 2 gallons of gas (about 72 kwh) would make an electric motorcycle that could travel for 660 miles! I don't know what the solution to small and light energy storage is, but I hope it comes soon.

But I'm hoping when it's all said and done that I'm going to have a blast riding this thing. I know it won't do the ton (yet...I'd need an AC motor) or travel from one end of the state to the other, but if it manages to plaster a stupid grin on my face for 40 miles then that's good enough for me.

[Rgconner]

Sheik, you should check out Rabbittool.com for future projects.

They sell just the batteries, and you could form your own packs in shapes that fit the bike better in areas you currently have open.

I doubt they are made in the US, battery production is notoriously nasty, so they get made where the environment is less protected.

Ironic, isn't it?

[scottly]

I know it won't do the ton (yet...I'd need an AC motor)

You don't need an AC motor, you need more volts! 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Interesting company. Looks like they make mostly NiMH batteries, but the form factors available are pretty cool. NiMH is considered a little bit more "old-school" than the large format lithium prismatics I'm rocking on my bike, but they do tend to be cheaper for the same amount of storage. But they also tend to be a bit heavier.

The new cool thing are pouch-formatted lithium prismatics. They look like my batteries, except they're only 1/2" or less thick. The guy I bought my batteries from up in Columbus interned at Tesla, where he got his hands on these pouch cells. I think his battery pack has literally twice the capacity as mine, in a slightly smaller package. The trouble is getting your hands on these batteries as a regular old consumer. He routinely goes on 100 mile rides with that bike. I'm pretty jealous.

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I know it won't do the ton (yet...I'd need an AC motor)

You don't need an AC motor, you need more volts! 

Hah, I'm already overvolting this motor by 36 volts. I'd have to start doing some SERIOUS cooling if I wanted to get it spinning faster. And a new controller...

[scottly]

The EV guys used to report better "gas mileage" cruising in 2nd or 3rd gear, and greater acceleration when keeping the motor in the lower RPM range. I expect your bike with a single gear will accelerate quite briskly from a stop, and then taper off quickly as you approach the point that the back EMF of the motor balances the supply voltage.

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Motors do have a peak RPM, where the motors are the most efficient. I could gear that as my maximum speed...but where's the fun in that?

[Retro Rocket]

Electric cars are already getting 100 miles+ out of a single charge, this makes them perfect for city dwellers and round town running...

Which ones? The Leaf is the only production one I know of that is widely available. Consumer Reports says it is more like 65, and in cold conditions, 19!

The Tesla gets more than 200, but then there are only 2000 or so ever built, at $110K+ so it is hard to count that.

Believe me, I want them to work. The best bet for the next real energy source will be electric generating: Fusion, Geothermal, solar, whatever it is, it is electric.

Do some googling , there are quite a few production electric cars {10+}, i have found that the US is behind the rest of the world when it comes to alternate energy sources. {LPG, solar, electric vehicles} Not having a go here..
Renault has one with a range of 100 miles, Mitsubishi has one with a 100 mile range, and there are piles more. The way battery tech is going, a 200mile range won't be far off, but like i said, if you live in or around a city, somewhere near 100 miles of range would suit most people for commuting, petrol is still the way for traveling any distance though, or LPG for the environmentally conscious. .. The way you drive them and certain conditions do interfere with the range though..  I really don't think that electric cars are the way forward, Hydrogen will be the future of auto fuels and the conversion methods are already getting cheaper and far more efficient.

[Rgconner]

Motors do have a peak RPM, where the motors are the most efficient. I could gear that as my maximum speed...but where's the fun in that?

That is where a CVT would be nice, it can be tuned to keep the motor at the most efficient speed while changing the gear ratio infinitely.

[Retro Rocket]

Why not use a gearbox with this project.? Something like a Harley box should be able to handle the torque....

[Terry in Australia]

I really don't think that electric cars are the way forward, Hydrogen will be the future of auto fuels and the conversion methods are already getting cheaper and far more efficient.

I agree Mick, electric vehicles will always be popular with the hippies and the greenies who think they're saving the world while ignoring the pollution caused by the electricity production process and the manufacturing and eventual disposal of millions of short life batteries, but for novelty value, I think they're great.

LPG is the cleanest fuel commonly available, with almost zero carbon pollution, and is much cheaper than gasoline. Sadly it's not highly praised by the greens because it's made by the big oil companies, who the greens hate for a whole raft of other reasons.

I've got an E-Gas Ford work car, and it's incredible looking at the rust in the exhaust's tailpipe, there's not a trace of carbon, and the oil is as clean after 12000 miles as it was when it went in. I think I'll build an LPG powered motorcycle, and become the ultimate greenie, with the ability to ride for hundreds of miles or until my butt gets sore, whilst personally saving the world.............  

[Retro Rocket]

I can just picture the 9 kilo gas bottle as a gas tank....

[Terry in Australia]

I can just picture the 9 kilo gas bottle as a gas tank....

Yeah, I'd need a custom tank with a cover over it Mick, but it wouldn't be too hard to do, especially with a single carb manifold. Cheers, Terry.

[Retro Rocket]

There's a mob called Gas research that do LPG performance conversions, with a change of cam and timing they are making better than stock HP on unmodified cars

[ivanhoew]

SUCH an interesting project . thank you .

[Syscrush]

LPG is the cleanest fuel commonly available, with almost zero carbon pollution, and is much cheaper than gasoline.

This is so false it's ridiculous.  You need to study some chemistry, my man.

LPG aka Propane aka C3H8 has very, very little unburned hydrocarbon emissions, and unburned LPG is not toxic, which is nice.  But it's still a hydrocarbon and the main byproducts are CO2 and H2O.  NOx and CO is less than with gasoline, but still present, along with some organic compounds as a result of the SO2 that's added to the LPG.

LPG is great, but snide comments about greenies being irrational will come off better if you're not stating stuff that's factually incorrect in the same post.