Topic: Choosing a hand gun

[Don R]

Anybody see that 5 shot revolver that shoots 45 long colt or 410 shotgun shells? That's just ridiculous. I want one! Taurus maybe?

[TwoTired]

Anybody see that 5 shot revolver that shoots 45 long colt or 410 shotgun shells? That's just ridiculous. I want one! Taurus maybe?

Can't have one in California, unless you are police or a politician.

Too bad.  It's a really good trail gun.  410 does well against rattlesnakes. 
Calif has decided it's a sawed off shotgun.  More stupidity, and they are getting dumber.  (sigh)

[Grnrngr]

The Judge
http://www.taurususa.com/video-theJudge.cfm

[BobbyR]

I second Llloyds use of the Glaser Safety slug and Hydra Shocks in the Home. Some asshat Corrections officer in the next Town was shooting pumpkins in his back yard. A 9mm went through one of the pumpkins, traveled 100 ft and went through the wall of his neighbors house, the bullet lodged in his neighbors in the leg.

There is an exercise they taught us in the Academy on how the bodies reaction to a stressful situation can alter your ability to aim. They made us fire 10 rounds at 25 ft, and mark them. Then slowly jog around the range once, not enough to get you out of breath, just enough to get the heart rate elevated and fire another 10 rounds. The patterns were far different the second time.

[Skunk Stripe]

Sorry tt but on some of your thoughts, you are a bit misguided. Yes I know you will jump on me for this but it has to be said.

sing a shotgun and aiming from the hip looks good in movies.  But, I have to doubt the accuracy of such practice, and a 12 ga recoil, makes it questionable if the gun will even be retained for a second shot.

Aiming from the hip works fine with a shotgun, thats what the spread is for and unless you have a limp noodle of a hand, it is not that hard to hang onto a 12Ga, it really isn't.

Even with shot shells, the shot spread of shotgun at 25 ft, averages 8 inches, being very capable of missing a target.

Again a wrong statement, the spread is controlled by the barrel and almost all shotguns can use different barrels with different choke rates. Indeed, even barrel length will affect spread. regardless, how wide is the average bullet? What, about half an inch? Considering that, an 8 inch spread is massive and gives a MUCH greater chance of hitting your target. As for a slug being mentioned, I did not see it recommended. Besides, how would that be worse than using a massive .45?

Also, I would not use tiny #8 shot, sorry but unless you get a head shot, that stuff wont even take down a turkey or goose, that is why you drop in some #4  or lower. See a shotgun loses its energy faster than other rounds do, even pistols. It is a short range weapon and was even used with great effect in the trenches in ww1. It has great stopping power yet comparatively low penetration, excepting slug or sabot rounds.
Also, depending on where you live and the laws, you can use a sawed off shotgun which increases the spread and the ease of movement. And if over penetration is still a concern, use steel shot instead of lead. It is not as dense thus you will have less penetration.

I think this is more just a lack of shotgun experience for you, not really your fault as not everyone shoots every gun. Besides that, CA is quite restrictive when it comes to guns. Growing up in the upper midwest where it is the rare home that does NOT have a shotgun, at least in the rural areas which is most of the area, I have used a number of shotguns and rifles. I do have yet to fire a 10 Gauge cannon though!

[TwoTired]

sing a shotgun and aiming from the hip looks good in movies.  But, I have to doubt the accuracy of such practice, and a 12 ga recoil, makes it questionable if the gun will even be retained for a second shot.

Aiming from the hip works fine with a shotgun, thats what the spread is for and unless you have a limp noodle of a hand, it is not that hard to hang onto a 12Ga, it really isn't.

I admit these are examples of untrained people.

Even with shot shells, the shot spread of shotgun at 25 ft, averages 8 inches, being very capable of missing a target.

Again a wrong statement, the spread is controlled by the barrel and almost all shotguns can use different barrels with different choke rates. Indeed, even barrel length will affect spread. regardless, how wide is the average bullet? What, about half an inch? Considering that, an 8 inch spread is massive and gives a MUCH greater chance of hitting your target. As for a slug being mentioned, I did not see it recommended. Besides, how would that be worse than using a massive .45?

You seem to be more concerned about some of your projectiles hitting the intended target rather that what some of the projectiles that miss the target can do.

A projectile mass carries kinetic energy.  The more mass, the more energy it takes to stop it.  Smaller projectiles expend their energy at a faster rate than larger ones.  Given the same muzzle speed, the weight of buckshot and the the weight of #8 shot carries the same energy as it leaves the muzzle.  They both behave similar to solids for the first 5-10 feet as all that energy is concentrated in a small area.  Then the pellets begin an effective spread.  Buckshot will have 9 -.32 caliber balls traveling at 1000Ft /min.  At 17ft they have spread to about a 4 in diameter.  The human body is about 16 inches wide, so you'll need a pretty accurate shot to place all those pellets in the intended.  You are not using any sights when shooting from the hip.  I think most shooters would be challenged to put all their rounds inside that size target.

On the other hand, 1 1/8 oz of #8 shot caries the same energy out to 17ft with the same shot spread.  If some of those tiny pellets miss the intended, drywall will stop them.  If the majority of pellets hit the intended, as a general point-shoot might accomplish, the same force is applied as if it were buckshot.

I'm not concerned with damage to the target, I'm concerned about collateral damage.

See the chart below showing shot spread.  10Meter is 39 feet.  An open (cylinder) bore spreads to about 10 inches.  I don't live in a sprawling home, so I'm likely looking at 20 feet range to target, maximum.  The shot spread is more likely about 5 to 8 inches at that distance.  You'll still need significant accuracy to keep all those pellets within the intended target, all while adrenaline and a million other thoughts are racing through your body.  Still think a shoot from the hip is best?

Also, I would not use tiny #8 shot, sorry but unless you get a head shot, that stuff wont even take down a turkey or goose,

That is clearly an error assessment.  You hold the shotgun muzzle to the head of a turkey and pull the trigger, the turkey is dead, no matter what shot type you use.  Cripes, even the shot shell wad would be enough.
In reality, you use the shot spread to gain a wider area of placement with distance, knowing that not all the pellets will hit the target.  You just need to get some of them into a vital area.  See picture below.  At close range, pretty much all shot shells will damage enough vitals for a kill.
In the home, those missed pellets are important considerations.

Also, depending on where you live and the laws, you can use a sawed off shotgun which increases the spread and the ease of movement. And if over penetration is still a concern, use steel shot instead of lead. It is not as dense thus you will have less penetration.

Reader warning:
Under the National Firearms Act (NFA) it is illegal for a private citizen to possess a sawed-off modern smokeless powder shotgun, i.e. with a barrel length less than 18 inches (46 cm) and an overall length less than 26 inches (66 cm), without a tax-stamped permit from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, which requires a background check and a $200 fee for every transfer.

Steel shot doesn't deform/expand like lead shot, making penetration still an issue.  A flattened projectile expends energy faster than the same size sperical one that holds it's shape.

I think this is more just a lack of shotgun experience for you, not really your fault as not everyone shoots every gun. Besides that, CA is quite restrictive when it comes to guns. Growing up in the upper midwest where it is the rare home that does NOT have a shotgun, at least in the rural areas which is most of the area, I have used a number of shotguns and rifles.

I don't know why you would assume I'm a dummy with shotguns.  I grew up in the midwest, too.  But, I gained my education of firearms and use while here in California.  California wasn't always so stupid about gun laws and silly restrictions primarily intended to destroy the "gun culture" and "un-educate" the people about firearms.

I like shotguns.  In their proper place.  When I wanted to learn about shooting moving targets, I joined a Skeet league.  The plaque below occurred during the first year.  Then the county board of supervisors closed the range down, cause they were worried that feral pigs might get lead poisoning.  I have several shotguns; for target shooting, cowboy action shooting, and a couple battle shotguns.
I've done my homework.

For home defense I chose the .45.  As noted, they shoot Glaser frangible rounds first, as their tiny pellets break up quickly and expend nearly all their energy at the first (or nearly so) obstruction they encounter. 
You can find ballistics for other .45 rounds here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP
These can certainly penetrate drywall.  However, the tritium night sights and the laser, I expect will help me put the rounds where they are intended, and minimize or eliminate collateral damage.

The choice of which firearm to use is a personal one.  If I lived alone out in farm land, indeed, a shotgun might be a better choice.  But, to say it is universally the best choice, even for urban areas, well, I simply must disagree.

Cheers,

[Cuts Crooked]

TT,

Liked your comment regarding the P229!  That's my duty weapon and I can tell you that it is one solid pistol, accurate, rugged, and reliable in spades!!! If you are stuck with using a 9mm (department policy  ) you can't go wrong with it!

I too am not a big fan scatterguns fo home defense. However I have to admit that in the hands of a well trained individual it can be a devastating weapon. I can also tell you, from experiance,  that the sound of a pump being racked in a darkened room will make you develope a very watery feeling in your lower gut! real quick!!!!

In spite of the above videos, I would NOT want to have to face my spouse with her shot gun in her hands. But then again, she has had extensive training with it. And she can make the weapon lethal from either end in close quarters!

[TwoTired]

Liked your comment regarding the P229!  That's my duty weapon and I can tell you that it is one solid pistol, accurate, rugged, and reliable in spades!!! If you are stuck with using a 9mm (department policy  ) you can't go wrong with it!

I have several models and chamberings for Sigs. They have all worked well right out of the box.  I would trust them in any combat situation.  And, they make nice small groups at the range, too.  They were not cheap, though.  But, they do just about everything right.  So, how can you complain about a little extra money for a job well done?

Cheers,

[Skunk Stripe]

TT not calling you dumb, just misinformed on some points. I wont even bother with the videos as for every lousy person, I can show a vid of a person using it well. 

You seem to be more concerned about some of your projectiles hitting the intended target rather that what some of the projectiles that miss the target can do.

A projectile mass carries kinetic energy.  The more mass, the more energy it takes to stop it.  Smaller projectiles expend their energy at a faster rate than larger ones.  Given the same muzzle speed, the weight of buckshot and the the weight of #8 shot carries the same energy as it leaves the muzzle.  They both behave similar to solids for the first 5-10 feet as all that energy is concentrated in a small area.  Then the pellets begin an effective spread.  Buckshot will have 9 -.32 caliber balls traveling at 1000Ft /min.  At 17ft they have spread to about a 4 in diameter.  The human body is about 16 inches wide, so you'll need a pretty accurate shot to place all those pellets in the intended.  You are not using any sights when shooting from the hip.  I think most shooters would be challenged to put all their rounds inside that size target.

I AM more concerned about some hitting as opposed to none. Given the fact though that the intruder is already inside, a few pellets that may miss have to go through the inside and outside wall. It IS against the law in almost all states to shoot at someone not in your home.
Not lets look at mass. A shotgun load is heavier BUT each individual pellet is smaller and much lighter than even a .17 cal and thus each individual pellet actually has less kinetic energy and requires less to stop it. And unlike a pistol round, it is less likely to go through multiple walls. As for buckshot, it depends on which size you are talking about as there are 4 main sizes with double being the most common. Buckshot is also the most common shell for home defense in shotguns.

That is clearly an error assessment.  You hold the shotgun muzzle to the head of a turkey and pull the trigger, the turkey is dead, no matter what shot type you use.  Cripes, even the shot shell wad would be enough.
In reality, you use the shot spread to gain a wider area of placement with distance, knowing that not all the pellets will hit the target.  You just need to get some of them into a vital area.  See picture below.  At close range, pretty much all shot shells will damage enough vitals for a kill.
In the home, those missed pellets are important considerations.

Missed what I said huh. I said unless you get a head shot... As for "close range" how close do you think a person is able to get to a turkey? Not close enough if you are using #8 and certainly NOT a wad unless the barrel was right ON the head. Watch the wad next time, they fly 20 feet at best.

Steel shot doesn't deform/expand like lead shot, making penetration still an issue.  A flattened projectile expends energy faster than the same size sperical one that holds it's shape.

Steel shot is also lighter than lead and has less impact power, thus the reason why you must use larger sizes when compared to lead.

As for your idea of laser sites, yeah they make them for shotguns too.

Sorry but you need to do more homework.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_shotgun
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/index.php - before you deride this one for being a forum, think carefully. Aside from honda themselves, what other source of info the CB is better than this site?

[Shenanigans]

I figured this might get a little out of hand but it is not as bad as I thought 

Held a couple today but wont have a chance to actually shoot them for a couple weeks. The 1911 is a lot of gun even with my bigger hands, the 92 and the XD dont really stick out as feeling bad in any way. They all seem to feel fine. So shooting will probably be the (rightfully) biggest factor.

Shot a 32 sub compact Beretta also, meh.

[TwoTired]

Missed what I said huh. I said unless you get a head shot... As for "close range" how close do you think a person is able to get to a turkey? Not close enough if you are using #8 and certainly NOT a wad unless the barrel was right ON the head. Watch the wad next time, they fly 20 feet at best.

Didn't you miss the context of argument?  Home defense ranges inside residential housing are 25 feet or less.  Are you going to maintain that shooting a turkey square in the head (or anywhere) at that range with #8 shot won't kill it?  

Is # 8 what you normally use to hunt turkeys?  No, of course not.  It's unlikely you can get that close for effective use of the round (and still eat the meat).  But, if you *could* get within 20 feet, #8 will do it!   Remember, we were actually talking about home defense and pellets hitting/missing their mark?  The discussion just got diverted toward turkeys.

But, do you really believe 410 pellets within a 8-10 inch area traveling at 1145 FPS (780 MPH), isn't going to stop an attacker in the home?

Sorry but you need to do more homework.

I've done my homework, many times.  I let the collected data point to the correct answer as any good scientist would do, rather than just find convenient "facts" or other people's opinion to support some initial conclusion.

I believe muzzle control is key to bystander safety.  And, I can maintain better control of a pistol barrel than a shotgun barrel in close quarters like a home residence.  In the event I do manage to miss my target, the small frangible pellets will only damage immediate walls which may have people behind them.

I don't have to worry about an attacker grabbing my 18" (or longer) muzzle to easily deflect my aim, or having heavy projectiles miss their target and pass through several walls to find innocent flesh.

I hope you are as skilled a shooter as you need to, to maintain safety of innocents.  It is not routine that all shotgun owners maintain a high level of recent proficiency, and certainly not enough to be certain all the pellets will find ONLY the intended target when under the stress of a life threatening event.

I've tried to explain this to you.  But, I've failed to get through, for whatever reason.
You get to decide what is best for you.  I maintain that a shotgun for home defense is NOT best for everyone, whether you like the reasons or not.  Personally, I do not want to harm anyone who doesn't demand such action.

I've seen both the Wiki references you posted.  Warfare is different from home defense, though they do share some operational points.  In warfare, the loss of or injury to "innocents" is acceptable and often forgiven by commanders.  A jury doesn't usually share this viewpoint.  Further, Wiki only states that shotguns are "popular" for home defense not that it is the best suited for that purpose.  "Popular" does not make it correct or the best choice.  Only that many of your friends agree (for unstated reasons).
As for the forum reference.  Yes, this is a good one, but no way are any of them 100% accurate.  In fact, there are many topics in this very forum where the "consensus" is simply popular without a firm basis in factual, scientific data. (Oil, tires, induction, etc.) Actual research is NOT a common occurrence, opinions forming "sides" is far more often the norm.

I simply can't accept that you are qualified to pronounce me as "misinformed" or "without proper knowledge".
Were I to guess, I'd assume you simply desire or wish to present the image of having a "bigger gun".  
However, I prefer smart use rather than brute use.  I suppose that sounds odd coming from a person that has some pretty big guns.  But, those don't get used for home defense.  However, if I ever expect to be charged by a herd of angry grizzly bears, I can put down quite a few before being over-run.    (If you saw where I live (residential subdivision) you'd laugh at the vision of such an unlikely prospect.)

Anyway, under the right conditions a shot gun is the proper, even best, choice.  But, not all home usage qualifies.  And, with the wrong ammo, it's a danger to anyone in the projectile path, friend or foe.

Cheers,

[Skunk Stripe]

Again you miss it tt. Again, I said UNLESS YOU HIT IT IN THE HEAD #8 wont bring it down. Key word UNLESS.
Also, as for stopping someone, I would say look at what is used. The most common load for home defense is buckshot because it works the best. Sure #8 might do it but is there a reason to take that chance? #8 is some VERY small stuff, heck the average BB is larger than #2 shot at .177", #8 is only .09" so there is just not much mass when you compare it.  An analogy would be game hunting. Sure you could use a 22-250 for deer but unless you get a dead accurate head shot, it is not going down. I have seen few head shots when a deer is at a full run. Thus a larger round is used, commonly a 30-06 in my area. Yes the 22-250 will do the job, just with greater difficulty, same with using #8.
Maybe you are happy with #8 going fast, I am happy with smaller sizes hitting with more force.


As for your homework, funny how you post a wikilink article and when I do it, you dismiss it. Your homework is incomplete, sorry but getting uppity about it does not change that fact.
Also, if a person is close enough to grab your shotgun barrel, they are close enough to get to your pistol too. You need proof? Hold a shot gun at the shoulder and then hold your pistol the proper way for accuracy, yeah not to much difference is there. You can get a shotgun 3 feet long, when you hold out your pistol, you save maybe a couple inches. Measuring from my shoulder to the barrel of my pistol, I reach 2' 9", only 3 inches shorter than if I used a 36 inch shotgun.

I've tried to explain this to you.  But, I've failed to get through, for whatever reason.

I like this, as I have tried to do the same for you with equal results and with using just as much data as you.
As for your idea of not harming anyone, there is STILL always a chance your shot could go awry and hit someone no matter what precautions you take. Is a shotgun perfect for everyone? Of course not, if you are 5 feet tall and 80 pounds but then any gun would be a handful.

I simply can't accept that you are qualified to pronounce me as "misinformed" or "without proper knowledge".
Were I to guess, I'd assume you simply desire or wish to present the image of having a "bigger gun".

This is also funny as it is EXACTLY what you attempt to do to anyone who disagrees with you. But hey, that is your nature and everyone is different. Thus the world goes around. Not a big deal in the grand scheme.

What is really funny about all this is I don't even OWN a shotgun! I wish I did but for the time being, I must make due with a 9x18 I picked up used. Which I must handload as decent rounds are impossible to find unless I want #$%*ty Wolf rounds that are NOT reloadable and use supposedly non-corrosive berdan primers.

Maybe most of this comes down to nothing more than personal opinion based upon our respective locations.
I have lived in the midwest my whole life, sure I have traveled but just traveling does not really introduce a person to new ways of thinking. And while you maybe grew up in the midwest, having been in CA for however many years WILL change how you view things.
Truly not trying to bust any balls here. When it comes down to it, neither of us has definitive proof that either is best in every circumstance.

regardless, I fully agree that knowledge of whatever weapon you choose it the most important aspect and if you do not know how to use said weapon, One is no better off and maybe even worse off.

[mystic_1]

This has become quite a pissing match.

mystic_1

[weekend_junkie]

This has become quite a pissing match.

mystic_1

I concur.  Perhaps one of the offending pissers is Mel Gibson.

Back to the topic, how about a .357?  My local pistol range has competitions where you can use anything larger than .38 special.

[Brown Bomber]

This has become quite a pissing match.

mystic_1

I concur.  Perhaps one of the offending pissers is Mel Gibson.

Back to the topic, how about a .357?  My local pistol range has competitions where you can use anything larger than .38 special.

See post #4 

[plug1]

I keep a makarov 9x18 on the dresser, loaded but not chambered and out of reach of my little ones. I'd also add that if you do have children, take them to the range when you feel the time is right and let them feel the power of a gun. Once they do, they'll respect it as a weapon rather than a toy.

[luder]

?  a 22-250 wont drop a deer unless hit in the head- beg to differ......

[Grnrngr]

?  a 22-250 wont drop a deer unless hit in the head- beg to differ......

+1  I've dropped 2 with 22lr straight thru the heart with my trusty Glenfield 60 at 30-40 yards, but they weren't running..well... the buck ran about 8 feet after he was hit...

[benjamin550]

If you end up looking at handguns, I have to put in my vote for the EAA Witness made by Tanfoglio. Its not a super well known gun, but it fits great in the hands and is super accurate. I did a lot of research before I bought a gun and everyone I talked to who had any experience with this gun loved it. A few guys I know compete with it. Best part, the price. I got mine from a local gun shop for around 390.00. GREAT gun.

http://www.snipercountrypx.com/showproduct.aspx?productid=4215

[TwoTired]

The second handgun I acquired was a Dan Wesson .357 with 4 barrels, case, etc.  Very similar to this one:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=203597749#PIC

It is still one of my favorites, is quite accurate, and you get to change barrel lengths.  After I got it, I found out that it was nick named the assassin special, because ballistic traces match the barrel grooves, which could get "lost".  I got a chuckle out of that.
But, the gun is really fun because you can tinker with it; changing barrels, sight colors, grips, etc. and you can shoot both .38 and .357.

Excellent training gun, too, as you can use very low power loads, to develop smooth trigger pull without flinching, and then later use the big boomers.  Also, nice to learn how barrel length effects muzzle flip.
Additionally, if you do reloading, saving brass is much easier than with a semi auto pistol.  I found I could shoot a LOT more if I did my own reloads, as reloads are 1/4 to 1/3 the price of new boxed ammo.

Anyway, it is a pretty versatile kit.  Came with the hard shell, locking, carry case, too!

A few years later, I bought another Dan Wesson used, but it had a problem with the cylinder.  The chambers weren't smooth like the first one I bought, making magnum loads difficult to extract.  I sent it back to Dan Wesson Arms to have a new cylinder installed, and that new cylinder had the exact same problem.   So, if you find a Dan Wesson .357, check the cylinder bore carefully.  If you see ridges/ripples in the chambers, pass on that example.  If they are nice and smooth, you will most likely be quite happy with the revolver.

Cheers,

[ZoomyZen]

XD40 here.  Absolutely LOVE it.  Just over $400 got a case, slide lock, 9 round clip, 12 round clip, slide holster, clip carry, and various cleaning tool.  That little thing is a MONSTER!

[Don R]

I met Les Baer a few months ago. He builds high end 45's. Most FBI, Secret Service, airport security people are carrying his product. A lot of airline pilots also carrying and using frangible.

[Stormer]

Want a really good handgun?

Go for Glock. Just perfect reliability.
G17, G19, G23 or G22.
And be happy.

[TwoTired]

Want a really good handgun?

Go for Glock. Just perfect reliability.
G17, G19, G23 or G22.
And be happy.

Agreed Glocks are excellent.  (I've had those, too, a liked them a lot.)  I was just reading in "American Gunsmith" about it.  The factory polygon rifled barrel is not friends with lead cast bullets.  It works really well with copper jacket bullet at keeping high velocities.  But, if you shoot a lot, copper jacket bullets are more expensive than lead cast.  The smooth rifling allows no consistent place for lead to deposit in the barrel, except where the chamber meets the leade, or beginning of the rifling.  Lead builds up here and keeps the pistol from fully locking into battery.  The firing pin will still work, though. The danger is that not all of the cartridge case is supported by the barrel and the case may bulge or burst into the magazine.  The author did say that Bar-Sto made very good (and accurate) drop in barrels for the Glock, and they have the more traditional land and groove rifling that handles both lead and copper well bullets well.

Hope this helps,

[Skunk Stripe]

a 22-250 wont drop a deer unless hit in the head- beg to differ.

Having seen 22-250 rounds go right through a deer and the buck kept going like nothing was wrong. Sure it can work and maybe needing a head shot is a bit much but head or heart, neither is really that easy of a target at range and not if the animal is running. There is a reason why a 22-250 is considered more of a varmint rifle. Works great for coyote.