Topic: 1976 cb550F Super Sport strange battery problem

[cameron]

If it's as good as you say, $57 shipped is a good deal.

It is. I will never run the old style batteries again.

[TwoTired]

If it's as good as you say, $57 shipped is a good deal.

It is. I will never run the old style batteries again.

How long have you run the new battery?

[Hondawggie]

TT, thanks, that cleared up some gaps in understanding this battery situation.  Especially the part about why the battery reads 13v yet only has enough power to make the starter motor run for 10-15 seconds total.  The plates will not necessarily be whitish and can still have a bad cell or two (or three) in the battery due to plate 'wearing out' and losing surface area, causing low maximum current, after many charge/discharge cycles.

I read your piece thoroughly and am going to read it again to hopefully commit it to memory.
The part about using a nail as a disposable probe to really pin down whether or not one cell has gone south -- *really* helps.  Because without being able to conclusively determine "here, this cell is too low after the charge" -- I'm sort of going on faith with any battery I deal with as to go/no go.  As you explained, I cannot rely on a visual inspection that seems to indicate the battery is in new condition.   But probing one cell at a time - that should be conclusive.  It is gratifying to not have to say "Okay the battery looks new and I'm throwing it away.  I feel like an idiot about that."  It feels better to say "Sure it LOOKED okay but I threw it away because I can prove one or more cells are permanently out of commission."



I'm confused about the one-cell-at-a-time voltage check process.  Is this how to do it:

1) the '-' black meter probe on the '-' battery terminal, and the nail/red meter probe in cell #1, this checks for  2.1vdc on cell #1

2) now use a nail for the '-' meter probe, douse in cell #1 and put the red probe/nail into cell #2, and this is checking for 2.1vdc in cell #2

3) keep going and should see 2.1vdc with the black and red meter probes/nails in adjacent cells

4) at the final cell, black meter probe/nail  in that final cell, red meter probe on the '+' battery terminal, should see 2.1vdc

Correct?  Or am I missing something?

[TwoTired]

I'm confused about the one-cell-at-a-time voltage check process.  Is this how to do it:

1) the '-' black meter probe on the '-' battery terminal, and the nail/red meter probe in cell #1, this checks for  2.1vdc on cell #1

2) now use a nail for the '-' meter probe, douse in cell #1 and put the red probe/nail into cell #2, and this is checking for 2.1vdc in cell #2

3) keep going and should see 2.1vdc with the black and red meter probes/nails in adjacent cells

4) at the final cell, black meter probe/nail  in that final cell, red meter probe on the '+' battery terminal, should see 2.1vdc

Correct?  Or am I missing something?

I think you have the basics right.  You get to read 5 cells directly with the nails in adjacent electrolyte.  It's the end cell(s) that will read a bit different, because the connection points aren't identical.  On a good battery you have to add the neg post to electrolyte reading to the POS post to electrolyte reading.  I have one out in the garage that reads 1.6V at one end and .5v at the other end, which gives a full 2 .1 volts to add to the other 5 cell readings, making the grand total 12.6 V.

Hope that makes sense.

Cheers,

[dave500]

hey frosty,about seventeen years ago i was with marshall batteries,i was the midnight man,batteries are a use it or lose it thing,an old 70s charger is not as gentle on the charge cycle as the electronics were basic,i agree with the yuasa batteries as being superb,along with the aussie century batteries,some have real luck with batteries that technically should be finished with,and others have young well cared for ones that cark it early,new batteries can also be overcharged and ruin the longevity and capacity of them,hey hondawggie,have you got a multimeter?check for any current draw with all switches off.also check your charge rate at about 4000 revs,with no lights,then lights on.

[Hondawggie]

hey hondawggie,have you got a multimeter?check for any current draw with all switches off.also check your charge rate at about 4000 revs,with no lights,then lights on.

I just had to buy a new multimeter.  What happened to the old analog meter, and this one was another tool I acquired in the old days (about 1984 I think) -- it's a Micronta analog multimeter and I have done well by her for a quarter century.

Then 4 days ago I put the Micronta on 'DC Amps' and put the meter on the highest setting, which is 15 amps, and checked the questionably-good CB550f battery (the EverStart battery) for current across the + and -  battery terminals.  I saw no reading there.  I don't feel that was an accurate reading at all, and after that -- my old friend, the 27-year-old Micronta analog meter apparently has given up the ghost.  I should have put the battery into the bike then checked for current in series (along a wire in the harness).

Bought a new multimeter at Harbor Freight -- HF had a sale on all digital multimeters and they were cleaned out of the all meters save for a $4.95 surprisingly full-featured backlit meter. It's a nice little meter and works fine.

Yesterday I believe I achieved a full charge on that EverStart battery.  I've learned a lot about batteries in this thead, thanks to everyone, and after the advice about waiting 2 hours for the battery to rest after a charge, I just read the voltage on the EverStart battery.  It has been 14 hours since I took the battery off my trickle charger -- and while it read about 13.15 volts right after I disconnected it from the charger, it now reads 12.87 volts.  So it seems to be holding a good voltage level.

So I'm hoping this battery has sufficient plate material to both hold the correct voltage *and* provide enough current for the starter motor.  If it stops raining today I'll put battery in the cb550f and see if she will start.   If I get the same '10 to 15 seconds of starter motor then nothing' I'll have to assume the current-supply capacity of this battery is used up due to the plates in one or more of the cells going south over many charge/discharge cycles.

[TwoTired]

Then 4 days ago I put the Micronta on 'DC Amps' and put the meter on the highest setting, which is 15 amps, and checked the questionably-good CB550f battery (the EverStart battery) for current across the + and -  battery terminals.  I saw no reading there.  I don't feel that was an accurate reading at all, and after that -- my old friend, the 27-year-old Micronta analog meter apparently has given up the ghost.  I should have put the battery into the bike then checked for current in series (along a wire in the harness).

While still a tech, we would chide and deride a fellow tech that did something like this for weeks.
An ammeter does NOT limit the amount of current passing through it.  It simply measures what the load demands. It is why you measure current in series, as it has an internal shunt, which behaves as a direct short.  So, in effect you shorted the two battery terminals together using the meter shunt.  A battery is capable of huge currents for a few seconds, in the order 600-1000Amps, it all depends on the internal resistance of the battery, and starting batteries are designed for very low internal resistance.
Micronta is a fairly good name.  If smoke didn't come out of the meter movement, there is probably a fuse inside that vaporized when you used the meter as a shorting bar.  These are often found in the battery compartment, as they expected the techs to have the occasional brain fart.

Be aware that the starter motor can demand 120 amps, depending on engine spin resistance.  A 15 amp meter is inadequate for measuring such a task.

Yesterday I believe I achieved a full charge on that EverStart battery.  I've learned a lot about batteries in this thead, thanks to everyone, and after the advice about waiting 2 hours for the battery to rest after a charge, I just read the voltage on the EverStart battery.  It has been 14 hours since I took the battery off my trickle charger -- and while it read about 13.15 volts right after I disconnected it from the charger, it now reads 12.87 volts.  So it seems to be holding a good voltage level.

This is a good sign.

So I'm hoping this battery has sufficient plate material to both hold the correct voltage *and* provide enough current for the starter motor.  If it stops raining today I'll put battery in the cb550f and see if she will start.   If I get the same '10 to 15 seconds of starter motor then nothing' I'll have to assume the current-supply capacity of this battery is used up due to the plates in one or more of the cells going south over many charge/discharge cycles.

This is a reasonable plan.  However, it assumes the starter motor is drawing the amps expected.  If it has become an over consumer, drawing far more amps than it should, this too will deplete a good battery quickly.
While is is best to know what the starter motor draw actually is, Common DMMs don't have the capacity to measure it without vaporizing an internal fuse.

There are a few a approaches to troubleshooting and gaining info about what's what.
1 - is to substitute a known good battery.  If cranking and use time is as expected the unknown battery is suspect.
2- Measure the actual current draw of the starter motor.  If it is within expected parameters and the battery depletes quickly, then the battery is suspect.  If the motor current draw is higher than expected, then the battery is not the fault.
3. There are load testers available for the battery, which place a starting load on the battery.  While on this load, say 50 amps, the voltage must not fall to far, 8-9v would be suspect.
4.  You can load test your battery using the bike itself, as it normally draws about 10 amps whenever the key switch is turned on (without the starter motor).
Being a 12 amp hour battery.  It should last a bit over an hour before the voltage drops to 8-9V.
( to prevent points burn, move the run switch to stop.)
On the bench I just connect a couple of headlights to the battery and watch the voltage fall.  A bad battery will continue to dip voltage level fairly quickly.  A good one will very slowly lose voltage after the initial load is presented.

Note that these tests drain the battery.  Even if it tests good, it needs to go back on the charger for a full recharge before placing back into service.  The Honda 550 charging system is a battery maintainer, not a "recover from dead charger" (unless you plan to immediately cruise on the freeway for 10-12 hours maintaining 3000-5000 RPM.)

Cheers,

[Hondawggie]

Micronta made a good analog meter back then -- I opened her up today and sure enough, there was a fuse inside my old analog Micronta mmeter and engraved on the metal end of the fuse was "250V  0.75A"  so Micronta put some protection in there.  Also there was a spare fuse inside the case, which I installed and my old friend works again just fine.

Thanks for the tip about the starter motor draw.  I have two cb550 batteries, one from a cb550K that I own and the one 'EverStart' that came with this bike.  Both of those are fully charged and both have held their charge after 2 hours+ off of the trickle charger.    It rained all day so I will swap in the EverStart tomorrow and if it fails to keep cranking the starter motor like before after 10-15 seconds of cranking, I'll swap in the 550K battery.     Before starting, I will load-test each battery by turning the key on and check to make sure the voltage stays above 10 volts (that came from another part of this thread).   Rain kinda washed me out today.

[dave500]

ive had the same brain fart aswell and accidently had the meter on the wrond setting with leads in the wrong ports and blown the fuse,my meter has to be dissembled to get to it and its soldered in,second time i cut a hole in the side and mguyvered up a blade fuse externaly.

[Hondawggie]

when you have a good tool you hold on to it.  The older and the more #@! its been through
seems like you get more attached to it.  Finding that a trusted tool was well built and has a 2nd life is cool.
If only the new stuff was as good as what was being made 25 years ago.   

Thats why we like these vintage bikes -- old reliable friends who won't let you down very often
if you take care of 'em.

[cameron]

If it's as good as you say, $57 shipped is a good deal.

It is. I will never run the old style batteries again.

How long have you run the new battery?

Not long. Maybe 8 months?
But dont get all older-is-better on my now, baby.
New bikes run AGMs standard now! They are actually better technology!!
Especially for my life. I ride exclusively (no car), and mostly in the city. Which means I don't have a lot of charging time, and I need my shiz to be reliable.

She started right up today after sitting through 30-40 degree weather for 10 DAYS!
Unheard of in the pre-AGM years. (all 8 of them!)

[Hondawggie]

"How long have you run the new battery?"


Not long. Maybe 8 months?
But dont get all older-is-better on my now, baby.
New bikes run AGMs standard now! They are actually better technology!!
Especially for my life. I ride exclusively (no car), and mostly in the city. Which means I don't have a lot of charging time, and I need my shiz to be reliable.

She started right up today after sitting through 30-40 degree weather for 10 DAYS!
Unheard of in the pre-AGM years. (all 8 of them!)

Since I still yet may need to buy a 550f battery, a question.  Does your battery require any changes to the battery case or the + and - leads, or -- is it made to the same dimensions as the stock cb550f battery?

In some of my riding friends' bikes I've seen 1/4 size sealed batteries they claim work good but they have to do up a custom hold-down for the battery or it flops around in the stock battery box.

If I do end up needing to buy a battery, may consider that one....

[TwoTired]

If it's as good as you say, $57 shipped is a good deal.

It is. I will never run the old style batteries again.

How long have you run the new battery?

Not long. Maybe 8 months?

The point is that flooded batteries last 3-5 years depending on care given to them.

8 months is not much of life test, and certainly not enough testing to prove it is superior or more economical than flooded batteries.

I prefer science over a belief system.  I do hope your battery continues to function well.  I have heard stories that they don't last as long, as well as some that say they last longer.  I was merely trying to collect more data.   Thanks for your report.

Cheers,

[cameron]

I will keep you informed. Though I am not claiming it is more economical. Just superior on a week to week reliability basis.
My poorly cared for flooded batteries generally lasted 18 months... and did a crappy job of it Often needing recharges and the like.
I literally thought my electric start was just Broken for the last 3 years.. it was so unreliable. NOw? It works every time, even after a week sitting in the cold.
I hear people get 5 years minimum on AGMs... but I bet I can kill it before that! MWAHAHAHA!

RE: size: the one I got is a direct replacement, size wise.

[cameron]

Just a necro update:

AGM still going strong.. now 3 years running?
Still fires up first try every time.
Still never dead, never needed to charge it.
I have left her garaged for a month, maybe 6 weeks at a time.. but thats it. I ride almost daily when I am in town. But my regular batts wouldn't have liked 4-6 weeks of downtime.

Still the best optional upgrade I have done to her.

[cameron]

Another update!

Now I am... 5 years in?
Still on my first Scorpion AGM.
Still first time starts no matter how neglectful I am.

I leave her for weeks sometimes... no charger.. no nothing. She starts up right away.

Amazeballs.

[MoMo]

thanks for update,  I am a believer in Scorpion batteries too.  Never had a problem with one...Larry

[cameron]

One last update?

I just packed the girl up and put her in storage for the next 2 years.
That original scorpion was still running totally strong.
That's 7 years of general neglect and occasional trickle charging.

It will be off the charger for 2 years, though... so we will see how it fares. I am ready to replace it if needed!