Author Topic: 1976 cb550F Super Sport strange battery problem  (Read 5957 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Hondawggie

  • Flimmy-Flammy, Hambone-Sammy -- I'm a Bigole
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 483
1976 cb550F Super Sport strange battery problem
« on: November 23, 2010, 06:02:02 PM »
The battery looks brand new and fits perfectly into my '76 cb550f's battery box.
The battery came with the bike which I just bought.
The bike has around 25k miles on it and had been sitting, not long enough to gum up the carbs and mess up the disc brake, but several months of sitting without being run.

I trickle charged the battery and it got to around 13-14 volts pretty quickly.

Then today I put the battery in the bike, got it started no problem.  Since I'm not ready to ride it yet,
I turned it off and ran an errand and came back (40 minutes) -- and the battery was not even strong enough to
turn the start motor over!

I pull the battery out thinking I didn't charge it thoroughly enough -- and it *still* reads 13-14 volts!

It sure had enough cranking power to start the bike up today, because it took a bit of engine cranking to get her started.

Then 40 minutes later -- no cranking power from the battery.

What could be going on?

Offline Stev-o

  • Ain't no
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 34,472
  • Central Texas
Re: 1976 cb550F Super Sport strange battery problem
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2010, 06:11:58 PM »
bad battery. see if you can get it load tested.
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline MoMo

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,271
  • Ride like you're invisible
Re: 1976 cb550F Super Sport strange battery problem
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2010, 06:19:52 PM »
probably bad battery but you also may want to clean all the terminals and cable ends, especially where the neg attaches to the frame, Larry

Offline Hondawggie

  • Flimmy-Flammy, Hambone-Sammy -- I'm a Bigole
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 483
Re: 1976 cb550F Super Sport strange battery problem
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2010, 06:32:40 PM »
Hmm, wasn't expecting 'bad battery' as it has lots of cranking power, at least as soon as I put it in today.

I wouldn't have been shocked to hear 'charging circuit must be bad' or 'you had a parasitic draw on the battery that drained it over those 40 minutes while you were away' or 'there's a drop to ground somewhere that's draining the battery."

Regardless of the cause though, I don't get why my voltmeter still shows it has having over 12 volts if the battery is bad. 

Could there be another cause on the bike itself?
How do I do a 'load test' ?  Before buying a new one I guess I really need to be sure it's not a problem on the bike.

Offline Stev-o

  • Ain't no
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 34,472
  • Central Texas
Re: 1976 cb550F Super Sport strange battery problem
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2010, 06:37:35 PM »
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline Hondawggie

  • Flimmy-Flammy, Hambone-Sammy -- I'm a Bigole
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 483
Re: 1976 cb550F Super Sport strange battery problem
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2010, 06:47:44 PM »
Check all conections, then click here.....

http://www.ehow.com/how_7427333_load-test-motorcycle-battery.html

Thanks, that is a straightforward method.  I will try it tomorrow.

Offline Frostyboy

  • Retired: Never was an
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,227
  • Circa 1951
Re: 1976 cb550F Super Sport strange battery problem
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2010, 03:50:17 AM »
Is there a chance you've popped it into a gear? Is the neutral light on with the ign on?
If it's in gear, it won't crank unless you pull the clutch in.

You didn't tell us if the warning lights light up with the ign on. If they do come on with the key, do they dim out when you push the start button?

Have you tried the kick start? It could be a switch or solenoid problem.
Last year I joined a support group for procrastinators.
We haven't met yet.
[CB550F1]

Offline Hondawggie

  • Flimmy-Flammy, Hambone-Sammy -- I'm a Bigole
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 483
Re: 1976 cb550F Super Sport strange battery problem
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2010, 05:47:59 AM »
Is there a chance you've popped it into a gear? Is the neutral light on with the ign on?
If it's in gear, it won't crank unless you pull the clutch in.

You didn't tell us if the warning lights light up with the ign on. If they do come on with the key, do they dim out when you push the start button?

Have you tried the kick start? It could be a switch or solenoid problem.

Good questions.  Okay, the dashboard telltale lights come on fine.  I do notice that the left turn signal telltale on the dash is always lit up despite the turn signal switch being in its centermost position.  When I move that switch left or right, none of the turnsignals light up, and the two telltales on the dashboard are unchanged -- the left one is on, the right one stay off, always, independent of the turn signal switch position.

The red light at the top (I think it's the oil light? from memory) and the green Neutral light at the bottom come on brightly.

I will check today when I load-test the battery if the dashboard lights dim when I push the start button.

It's definitely not in gear when I push the Starter button.  The start motor moves, but instead of a fast high-pitched "wih-wih-wih-wih-wih" it sounds like "waaaaaah,.....waaaaaah,......waaaaaah," very slow and labored rotating of the starter motor, like it's not getting enough juice.

I then hooked up my portable jump-starter pack to the battery and the high-pitched fast rotation of the starter motor "wih-wih-wih-wih-wih" came back instantly.   That led me to think "Okay, during the 40 minutes I was away, the battery on the bike was discharged to ground or something."

I haven't tried the kickstart.

Okay here's a reasonable question.  This cb550f Super Sport is new to me.  I seem to recall on my CB400Four that I could get the bike running with a dead battery, ie. could bump start it and it would then run fine.

But some bikes will *not* have a functioning ignition unless the battery is healthy.

Since the cb550f is a cousin to the cb400f, should the 550 run even with a crummy battery?  Or is it the type of electrical/ignition system that won't fire the plugs if the battery is unhealthy?

Offline Hondawggie

  • Flimmy-Flammy, Hambone-Sammy -- I'm a Bigole
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 483
Re: 1976 cb550F Super Sport strange battery problem
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2010, 01:28:35 PM »
GAVE UP ON THE OLD BATTERY even though it looks brand new.
BTW, the brand name of the battery is "EverStart."   I think the CEO of that battery company is laughing at me after dropping the 'N' there.


I have my other 550 and will try its battery.  And this one is a Yuasa.  I have brought old Yuasas back to life, I'm much impressed with the brand, probably why they were chosen by Honda etc. as the stock battery.

My question is -- how long is it safe to leave the not-recently-in-use Yuasa battery
on my trickle charger?  It is full of fluid and it currently reads a little over 12 volts.

EDIT: let me add that the Yuasa may *read* 12 volts but the EverStart reads 13 volts just now and the EverStart can barely turn the starter motor over after about 15 seconds of cranking.   So I'm assuming since the Yuasa hasn't seen use in about 6 months, it will need charging despite reading a bit over 12 volts.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 01:31:39 PM by Hondawggie »

Offline Stev-o

  • Ain't no
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 34,472
  • Central Texas
Re: 1976 cb550F Super Sport strange battery problem
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2010, 05:07:13 PM »
I think EverStart is WalMart brand.
You can trickle charge all night, no prob.

The 550F does need a good battery to provide spark and run.

Good Luck.
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline Hondawggie

  • Flimmy-Flammy, Hambone-Sammy -- I'm a Bigole
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 483
Re: 1976 cb550F Super Sport strange battery problem
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2010, 07:31:16 PM »
I think EverStart is WalMart brand.
You can trickle charge all night, no prob.

The 550F does need a good battery to provide spark and run.

Good Luck.

I need to figure out why my '76 Honda cb400four got along fine being bump-started and running okay with a dead battery because that's the only street bike I know of with that quality.  

The cool thing about this 550f Super Sport is -- when I left my jump starter pack attached to the battery yesterday, I got her running.  And the motor sounded great and I'll be riding it soon enough.  I've now got this other battery I removed from another cb550 and I will charge and get the Super Sport on the road tomorrow.  The walmart battery just a sideshow bump-in-the-road.

One thing I did notice also when I had her running -- despite having the stock exhaust, it's louder than I expected.  Is that normal for 550f Super Sports with the stock exhaust?  It is definitely louder than my cb400four was.

Thanks for the advice on the timing of the trickle charge duration.  My trickle charger is -- get this -- from 1977.  I bought it in '77 when I was 17 for my then-new '77 kz1000.   So this trickle charger has no 'fully-charged detection, automatic shutoff' to stop the charging when the battery's fully charged.  I suspect the newer chargers have an auto-shutoff, but I have to babysit this one closely.  

I keep the charger because it is rugged -- no plastic on it.  And has served me well for 33 years.   Small too, it is the size of a coke can in length and width, only rectangular.  Has traveled well.

« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 07:35:50 PM by Hondawggie »

Offline Stev-o

  • Ain't no
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 34,472
  • Central Texas
Re: 1976 cb550F Super Sport strange battery problem
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2010, 07:45:34 PM »
My charger is from '81[?], all metal still works great. Bought it when I had my Kaw 1000 LTD.

They last forever when not used often and properly stored.
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline Hondawggie

  • Flimmy-Flammy, Hambone-Sammy -- I'm a Bigole
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 483
Re: 1976 cb550F Super Sport strange battery problem
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2010, 07:53:04 PM »
My charger is from '81[?], all metal still works great. Bought it when I had my Kaw 1000 LTD.

They last forever when not used often and properly stored.


Mine has a green metal case with a buffed aluminum face place.  Made in USA.
I wish we could get back to that, USA manufactured.  I dont know why we can't
make hot sport bikes like the Japanese.  We need to get back there.
Made in USA.

Offline Frostyboy

  • Retired: Never was an
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,227
  • Circa 1951
Re: 1976 cb550F Super Sport strange battery problem
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2010, 10:59:46 PM »
I'm installing, on average, 30 batteries a month into cars. One thing about lead/acid batteries is that they will self discharge on the shelf over time. Generally 3 months without any action a battery will require recharging. 6 months leads to stratification of the electrolyte where the acid settles to the bottom of the battery cos it's heavier. Sulphation (sulfation) of the plates can also occur in this state & often cannot be overcome by using a conventional charger.
An increase in charging voltage (14.4V) helps to recover a battery from this state, however it may not be capable of recovery if it has sat for too long.
Some late model chargers go through 6 to 8 stages of varying voltage & amperage to assist in recovering neglected batteries, so the 20-30 yr old chargers may not necessarily give you the result you are looking for.
Last year I joined a support group for procrastinators.
We haven't met yet.
[CB550F1]

Offline Hondawggie

  • Flimmy-Flammy, Hambone-Sammy -- I'm a Bigole
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 483
Re: 1976 cb550F Super Sport strange battery problem
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2010, 08:37:07 AM »
I'm installing, on average, 30 batteries a month into cars. One thing about lead/acid batteries is that they will self discharge on the shelf over time. Generally 3 months without any action a battery will require recharging. 6 months leads to stratification of the electrolyte where the acid settles to the bottom of the battery cos it's heavier. Sulphation (sulfation) of the plates can also occur in this state & often cannot be overcome by using a conventional charger.
An increase in charging voltage (14.4V) helps to recover a battery from this state, however it may not be capable of recovery if it has sat for too long.
Some late model chargers go through 6 to 8 stages of varying voltage & amperage to assist in recovering neglected batteries, so the 20-30 yr old chargers may not necessarily give you the result you are looking for.

Wow, great info -- I would ask, can you recommend a brand of this type of charger, the 6-to-8 stages type?  I want to get one of those -- the chargers I've seen at the local bike shops and auto parts stores are not sophisticated like that.  With one decent battery costing well over $50 it would be worth it.

Offline Frostyboy

  • Retired: Never was an
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,227
  • Circa 1951
Re: 1976 cb550F Super Sport strange battery problem
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2010, 04:14:55 PM »
Wow, great info -- I would ask, can you recommend a brand of this type of charger, the 6-to-8 stages type?  I want to get one of those -- the chargers I've seen at the local bike shops and auto parts stores are not sophisticated like that.  With one decent battery costing well over $50 it would be worth it.

I personally have a CTek 3600, it's a 6 stage. Works on lead/acid, calcium, AGM & gel batteries. Has a setting for m./cycle batteries too.
CTek have a large range.
http://www.ctek.com/EN-US/home/default.aspx
Last year I joined a support group for procrastinators.
We haven't met yet.
[CB550F1]

Offline Hondawggie

  • Flimmy-Flammy, Hambone-Sammy -- I'm a Bigole
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 483
Re: 1976 cb550F Super Sport strange battery problem
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2010, 08:14:01 PM »
I personally have a CTek 3600, it's a 6 stage. Works on lead/acid, calcium, AGM & gel batteries. Has a setting for m./cycle batteries too.
CTek have a large range.
http://www.ctek.com/EN-US/home/default.aspx

Thanks FB, wow pretty sophisticated stuff, I'm praying than an Aussie or New Zealander was the designer and it's produced in AU, we have china stuff here now in the US, a *lot* of it, which well wouldnt be so bad but theyre communists, dont treat their people well, steal the worlds intellectual property and back the N. Koreans.  But at least AU and NZ get some bennies from Chinas growth.

I'm going to check and if I cant find a source or facsimile here, I very much appreciate having that web link to fall back on!  Thanks.

Offline Frostyboy

  • Retired: Never was an
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,227
  • Circa 1951
Re: 1976 cb550F Super Sport strange battery problem
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2010, 11:26:59 PM »
Alas, although designed in Sweden, I think you'll find Made In China on the base of the charger. Seems to be the way of the world now. They do come with a 5 year guarantee though.
Last year I joined a support group for procrastinators.
We haven't met yet.
[CB550F1]

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,802
Re: 1976 cb550F Super Sport strange battery problem
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2010, 12:30:37 AM »
All chargers have a rating.  This is used to determine it's suitability to the battery being charged.
Only automatic chargers can be used without human monitoring.  Even then you need a charger compatible with the battery being charged.  Most notable is the difference between smaller MC batteries and Auto type.  Bigger batteries can take more input power than the smaller ones without damage, early wear.  You can quick charge small batteries with a bigger charger, but you have to monitor the battery closely and overcharge and over heating can be a concern.
The 550 battery has 12 amp rating.  You can charge this battery with a 1.2 amp charger overnight.  A trickle charger should provide about half that.  And, to maintain the battery at full charge would need a 0.120 amp charger.
This corresponds to the "stages" of charge.  An automatic charger matched to the 550 battery specs as above would be a 3 stage charger.  Because the battery doesn't store electricity directly, but rather chemically, "sneaking up" to full charge of the electrolyte achieves the best capacity for it.  These are what the extra stages provide.  You can do it with a primitive, fixed rate charger and a human brain.  But, it takes more attention than any of the automatic types.

Without knowing how much energy you put into the everstart battery with your trickle charger, it is not known if you ever achieved full charge state with it.  If you achieved full charge, it should read 12.6-12.8 volts after it was removed from the charger and allowed to "rest" for two hours.  The resting allows all the electrolyte to reach equilibrium, without bombardment of outside electron input.
Then it is time for a load test to see if there is still enough plate material left to pump out the required amperage needed by the starter motor.

The best chargers also modify their charge parameters with temperature, as a good, fully charged, battery will deliver higher voltage and current when warm as opposed to when they are cold.  In other words, the stage changes made by the charger when monitoring the battery voltage should shift to lower trip points when the battery is cold, or there is risk of overcharging the battery even if it is an automatic type.

But, if you are smart and attentive, there are a lot of chargers that can be used safely on a battery.

Cheers,





Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Hondawggie

  • Flimmy-Flammy, Hambone-Sammy -- I'm a Bigole
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 483
Re: 1976 cb550F Super Sport strange battery problem
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2010, 05:14:18 AM »
All chargers have a rating.  This is used to determine it's suitability to the battery being charged.
Only automatic chargers can be used without human monitoring.  Even then you need a charger compatible with the battery being charged.  Most notable is the difference between smaller MC batteries and Auto type.  Bigger batteries can take more input power than the smaller ones without damage, early wear.  You can quick charge small batteries with a bigger charger, but you have to monitor the battery closely and overcharge and over heating can be a concern.
The 550 battery has 12 amp rating.  You can charge this battery with a 1.2 amp charger overnight.  A trickle charger should provide about half that.  And, to maintain the battery at full charge would need a 0.120 amp charger.
This corresponds to the "stages" of charge.  An automatic charger matched to the 550 battery specs as above would be a 3 stage charger.  Because the battery doesn't store electricity directly, but rather chemically, "sneaking up" to full charge of the electrolyte achieves the best capacity for it.  These are what the extra stages provide.  You can do it with a primitive, fixed rate charger and a human brain.  But, it takes more attention than any of the automatic types.

Without knowing how much energy you put into the everstart battery with your trickle charger, it is not known if you ever achieved full charge state with it.  If you achieved full charge, it should read 12.6-12.8 volts after it was removed from the charger and allowed to "rest" for two hours.  The resting allows all the electrolyte to reach equilibrium, without bombardment of outside electron input.
Then it is time for a load test to see if there is still enough plate material left to pump out the required amperage needed by the starter motor.

The best chargers also modify their charge parameters with temperature, as a good, fully charged, battery will deliver higher voltage and current when warm as opposed to when they are cold.  In other words, the stage changes made by the charger when monitoring the battery voltage should shift to lower trip points when the battery is cold, or there is risk of overcharging the battery even if it is an automatic type.

Great info, thanks.  I haven't yet tossed the EverStart battery, might give it another go on the charger.  It just looks brand new, I see nothing wrong with it, no white plates, it bubbles after removal from the charger.
I have not done a static "2 hour rest" test on it and will charge it up and try that.  I only checked the battery right after taking it off the charger and it read 13 volts  (at that point I was concerned I overcharged it).

When you say "enough plate material left to provide enough amps for the starter motor"  -- would a visual inspection clue you in on that?  ie. would the affected plates be whitish?

Or could the battery look 100% fine from a visual inspection, read 13volts after charging, and still have "not enough plate material left" ? 

What I got from your reply above was more than I've known about batteries throughout my riding career and I am appreciative.

Offline chickenman_26

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 598
    • Motorcycle Consumer News
Re: 1976 cb550F Super Sport strange battery problem
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2010, 06:52:30 AM »

Or could the battery look 100% fine from a visual inspection, read 13volts after charging, and still have "not enough plate material left" ?  
A visual inspection won't tell you much, except whether the electrolyte level is low. Your old style flooded battery is reading 13 volts, because you haven't let it rest long enough after charging before reading the voltage. If it's in excellent condition and fully charged, it'll read very close to 12.6 volts after resting off the charger over night. And I don't mean 12.4. That's not close. That's around 30% discharged or sulfated. 12.55 to 12.65 is close. The voltage roughly approximates the specific gravity of the electrolyte which should be 1.260 for a flooded battery. You'd need a battery hydrometer to test that, but the voltage will give you an indication, provided you let the battery stabilize sufficiently after charging. For a better explanation in layman's terms, try these links -

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/motor_battery.php

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/electricity.php

Stu O

« Last Edit: November 26, 2010, 06:57:09 AM by chickenman_26 »
MCN DTF

Offline Hondawggie

  • Flimmy-Flammy, Hambone-Sammy -- I'm a Bigole
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 483
Re: 1976 cb550F Super Sport strange battery problem
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2010, 08:20:23 AM »

Or could the battery look 100% fine from a visual inspection, read 13volts after charging, and still have "not enough plate material left" ?  
A visual inspection won't tell you much, except whether the electrolyte level is low. Your old style flooded battery is reading 13 volts, because you haven't let it rest long enough after charging before reading the voltage. If it's in excellent condition and fully charged, it'll read very close to 12.6 volts after resting off the charger over night. And I don't mean 12.4. That's not close. That's around 30% discharged or sulfated. 12.55 to 12.65 is close. The voltage roughly approximates the specific gravity of the electrolyte which should be 1.260 for a flooded battery. You'd need a battery hydrometer to test that, but the voltage will give you an indication, provided you let the battery stabilize sufficiently after charging. For a better explanation in layman's terms, try these links -

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/motor_battery.php

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/electricity.php

Stu O



I really need this knowledge, I'm taking the opportunity here to figure these batteries out.

Thank you very much for the info: "And I don't mean 12.4. That's not close. That's around 30% discharged or sulfated. 12.55 to 12.65 is close"  wow I didn't know a battery could be assessed pretty closely.  I like it.  I will use it.


Here's a photo of my vintage-1977, Made-in-USA trickle charger:



I had a GL500 Honda that sat in my backyard under a tarp for about 2 1/2 years.  I never touched it during that time.   When I got it out this past summer, I pulled the Yuasa battery out, filled it with distilled water, charged it with my trickle charger (which puts out 2 amps).


The darned Yuasa battery in my GL500 works fine to this day! 

Sorry if this sounds like I don't know much about batteries, but -- is it pretty much a done deal
that Yuasa batteries' plates and other internal parts must be made differently (and better) than the Diehards and the EverStarts of the world?  I'd like to think the much-higher price for Yuasa is buying you more than just the overhead expenses of their big company and maintaining their brand.

I was pleasantly surprised yesterday with yet another Yuasa battery that had been unused for a long time  -- works fine after a distilled water top-off and trickle charge.

Offline cameron

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 558
Re: 1976 cb550F Super Sport strange battery problem
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2010, 09:57:04 AM »
look!

I am not as tech as some of these guys.. but heres the deal:

the 550F has a charging system that sometimes has trouble keeping up.
It was fine 30 years ago, especially when eveyone was riding long and hard... but now, after 30 years of oxidation and neglect.. it is not so god.

I struggled with mine for a long time. The solution? A Scorpion AGM battery. (any AGM might work.. but a scorpion is what I got)
http://www.batterystuff.com/batteries/motorcycle/sYT12C.html
It is expensive, sure.. but it will erase your problems, given you dont have a fatal flaw somewhere else. Like a ground in your Left turn signal circuit.

I mean it. Forget about acid batteries. These are better better better.
1976 CB550F

Offline Stev-o

  • Ain't no
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 34,472
  • Central Texas
Re: 1976 cb550F Super Sport strange battery problem
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2010, 10:03:40 AM »
If it's as good as you say, $57 shipped is a good deal.
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,802
Re: 1976 cb550F Super Sport strange battery problem
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2010, 12:34:05 PM »
When you say "enough plate material left to provide enough amps for the starter motor"  -- would a visual inspection clue you in on that?  ie. would the affected plates be whitish?
Probably not.  "Whitish" means sulfation, which is related to plate area and relates to poor state of charge history.  The white sections are a block to chemical action and electrical flow.

Or could the battery look 100% fine from a visual inspection, read 13volts after charging, and still have "not enough plate material left" ? 
Yes, that is so.  When the battery discharges, ions flow from plate into electrolyte.  Recharging puts the ions back on the plate.  But it is only the separator technology and design that helps guide the ions back.  Still, it is seldom deposited at the same place that it was removed from during discharge.  The deposition of materials over many discharge /charge cycles can leave big holes in the plates reducing the area that the plates have, and the quantity of electrons it can supply in a short time period.  In other words, the voltage potential can only be maintained at very low current flow numbers.  If the current demand is too high for the capacity, the voltage drops to levels that aren't useful for the starter motor.  Since power is Current x Amps, a low amount of either, diminishes power.

A battery has a rating.  The 550 battery is rated at 12 Amps  (Your CX500 is rated at 14 amps.)  This rate is called "C".  Normal charge should not be over 1/10 C which would be 1.2 amps.  2 amps is a little bit hot for the 550 battery.  It can be used, but you have to monitor the battery's heating and also not allow it to charge the battery beyond 14.5V (for a good battery), which is 2.4V/per cell. 
Batteries have different failure modes, one of which is a single dead cell.  You can charge a battery with a dead cell to 13V, which overcharges the remaining 5 cells to 2.6V and they should be bubbling.  Removing the charger and measuring immediately will show the battery at or near this surcharge.  Let it rest and the good cells will stabilize at their full charge state, which is 2.1 V/cell.   With 5 cells operating however, the voltage will fall to 10.6-ish, simply sitting without any connection to it.  This is enough to condemn a battery.
But, you can actually test each cell for this.  I use a nail as a sacrificial probe for the meter leads.  And insert them into the electrolyte of each adjoining cell.  The meter will read each cell voltage.  One cell at the end will be read between fluid and battery post.  A dead or bad cell will read much lower than the others.

Anyway, many assume a "trickle charger" can be applied indefinitely.  This is not true unless the charger is finely matched to the battery's rating numbers.  It is not the same as an automatic charger which monitor's the battery voltage for you.
For example, a car battery can have a 40 amp rate (NOT it's CCA rating). 1/10 would be 4 amps. And your 2 amp charger could be used on this battery almost indefinitely without worry (it would take a long time to charge this battery if depleted).    But, the rate is too high for the small 550 battery unattended.

Finally, there are many types of battery chargers.  Some are constant current, some are constant voltage.  The latter changes it's current with the battery charge state and is "better" for the battery at attaining full electrolyte saturation.  I can't tell from the Wabash label which type it is.  It could be 2 amps at 12v and it taper's down to below 100 milli-amps at 14.5V. Many of the old, cheap chargers behaved this way.  With a known good battery, you could characterize the charger's current and voltage to find out.

Cheers,



Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.