Topic: oil circulation. there isn't any!

[jakecb420]

anybody have any clues as to why when i fill up my oil tank(actually i only put 1.5 quarts in so far) the oil level stays the same when i crank the motor over.  i am dealing with a 76 750f1 that i am putting a 78 750f3 motor into. i already dropped the oil pan and cleaned the screen. it really wasnt dirty at all. i took the oil pump out and inspected it also. everything seems to be ok. i dont want to turn it over much more without the oil flowing in fear of damaging the motor. so.....what do you think? 

[ekpent]

I think that the oil will not drop from the tank and really start circulating well until the engine is actually started upMake sure you fill it correctly,start it up and keep an eye in the tank to see if there is movement. Others will chime in also.

[Gordon]

Probably need some oil in the pan to prime the pump. 

[KingCustomCycles.com]

It will not circulate until started.  I have seen it take a few minutes. 

[Whaleman]

I find that dry pumps seem to prime better with the kickstarter as opposed to the starter motor. I always build pressure with the kickstarter before starting the first time. Dan

[jakecb420]

      thank you all very much. i am getting closer by the day to starting it. i feel a lot better for the time being knowing that it probably just needs to be run. of course i will be watching the oil light when the time comes. priming with the kicker sounds like a plan to me.
      i cant wait to hear this beast fire up. just hearing it turn over is a relief.

    thanks again for the response. have a good thanksgiving. gobble gobble

[Whaleman]

You do need to put all the oil in to get it to prime. Dan

[jakecb420]

my first crack at it, i did fill the oil tank with 2 quarts. it was up to the top of the tank almost. i dont see how putting in more oil would make a difference in seeing the oil start to go down(or do anything). unless gravity of course, but i dont see that being the real factor here. i think kicking it is going to be the best way to prime it. please correct me if im wrong. thanks

[Whaleman]

If you study the flow diagram you will see the pump pulls from both the tank and the sump at the same time. If the tank is full and does not drain down then put the rest of the oil in a tappet inspection hole so the bottom pickup has oil to pull from or it will not prime for a long time. Dan

[MCRider]

my first crack at it, i did fill the oil tank with 2 quarts. it was up to the top of the tank almost. i dont see how putting in more oil would make a difference in seeing the oil start to go down(or do anything). unless gravity of course, but i dont see that being the real factor here. i think kicking it is going to be the best way to prime it. please correct me if im wrong. thanks

Seems I checked it once and the tank holds closer to 3 quarts completely full, even less than full actually.

You should install the oil pump primed. According to HondaMan, emerse it in oil, at least the base, spin the drive gear and suck up oil to fill it.

And remember you can't expect the level in the tank to drop much even after starting. The engine doesn't carry more than a quart while running, the rest, 2.5 qts, stays in the tank to cool. Recirculating of course, its not the same oil. 

[jakecb420]

thanks for the input whaleman and mc.

will putting oil in through the tappets really gonna get it to prime? or do you think i need to drop the oil pan and pump again and submerge the pump? should i just stop being paranoid and continue onto the next of a million steps to get this bike together?

You should install the oil pump primed. According to HondaMan, emerse it in oil, at least the base, spin the drive gear and suck up oil to fill it.

thats probably in the book, wish i had it

[MCRider]

thanks for the input whaleman and mc.

will putting oil in through the tappets really gonna get it to prime? or do you think i need to drop the oil pan and pump again and submerge the pump? should i just stop being paranoid and continue onto the next of a million steps to get this bike together?

You should install the oil pump primed. According to HondaMan, emerse it in oil, at least the base, spin the drive gear and suck up oil to fill it.

thats probably in the book, wish i had it

I'd push on. It will be fine.  When you do go to start it, leave the #1 and #4 tappet covers off. Have it on the centerstand. Once its running, in about 20 seconds (the longest 20 seconds) you'll start to see oil being flipped out of those openings by the rockers. Alls well in that case.

Also you could screw an oil pressure gauge in the cranckcase plug above and slightly behind the points cover. If it comes up to pressure quickly, alls well.

[cookindaddy]

I was a bit more paranoid when I started my rebuilt engine. I did not try to start it, but I watched through the valve cover openings while I cranked the engine with the starter motor, watching for oil at the rockers.

Someone here suggested pressurizing the oil tank with an bit of compressed air to help prime the system and that certainly worked here. A rubber cork with a drilled hole to the source of compressed air into the oil tank filler. A couple blasts of air and the engine turning over and it was wonderful to see the oil spurting out at the rockers.

I then started it with confidence that the oil was at the top end.

[Whaleman]

Don't drop the pan just to prime the pump. Hondaman is right as that is the best and fastest way to get primed and pressure. If you get all the oil in both in the tank and tappet hole you can still get a dry pump to prime. I have a gauge so it is very easy to see when pressure starts to build. With cold oil you can get 30 pounds with not that hard of kicking. I think the kicking works better because of the jerky nature of it as what you are doing is trying to get an air pocket to move through. I suggest always getting pressure before starting as the couple of minutes of dry running is not good. I guess it also depends on how good you were at applying assembly lube. Many people prime V8's with an electric drill in the distribuiter hole to spin the oil pump and prime all the bearings. You will be fine, just keep kicking and all of a sudden it will start to build pressure. Dan

[Bodi]

The engine pressure pump should prime itself since it gets oil gravity fed from the tank. It may take a bit of cranking if the pump is really dry, the pump rotors may be in an air pocket and with the anti-drain valve the pump has to produce a bit of pressure to get a flow going.
The sump can be as dry as the sahara and it won't affect the pressure pump. The sump scavenge pump - a separate pump in the same housing - sucks up oil from the sump and returns it to the tank. This pump also feeds a bit of oil to the transmission to keep it running slick but you can live without that until the pressure pump starts filling up the sump for the scavenge pump to empty.
On a rebuilt engine with clean dry parts one uses assembly lube on bearings and wear points to lubricate them until engine oil gets to them. On a bike that's been parked even for a month or more there should be enough oil left to take care of lubrication on startup. If you're worried about it, remove the spark plugs and turn the engine over with the electric starter for a minute. The main and rod bearings will be very lightly loaded and the engine spins fast enough to get oil pressure up quickly.

[jtb]

Pour one quart into the valve cover and let it settle to the pan.

[wrenchmuch]

+1 on spinning the motor with the plugs out using the electric starter . If the pump is dry and needs priming you will hear the revs drop on the starter as it begins to pump oil . Pull the 1 and 4 exhaust tappet covers and look for oil here . Once you start it watch the oil light till you are sure the scavenge pump is primed ( keeps the tank fill for the pressure pump ).

[jakecb420]

what a wealth of info. beings that i have a few different routes that i could take, when i actually get a chance to have a good sit down with my bike, i will post my method of priming and the results. thank you everyone for helping out.

[Jay B]

On a rebuilt engine with clean dry parts one uses assembly lube on bearings and wear points to lubricate them until engine oil gets to them.

I've never used assembely lube, but I've always used something like 75/140 gear oil to coat parts on assembley. Figured it would stick around for a while. Same thing?

[MCRider]

On a rebuilt engine with clean dry parts one uses assembly lube on bearings and wear points to lubricate them until engine oil gets to them.

I've never used assembely lube, but I've always used something like 75/140 gear oil to coat parts on assembley. Figured it would stick around for a while. Same thing?

Seems my assembly lube actually has some stickiness built in, probably not in a gear or motor oil. OCICBW

Comes in a small bottle: http://www.royalpurple.com/assembly-lube.html

http://www.amazon.com/Permatex-81950-Ultra-Engine-Assembly/dp/B000HBNVSK

Yes the descriptions of both (I use the permatex) includes the words "adhere" which a straight oil would likely not have.

You can use a heavy oil if the delay to restart isn't long. Like a day or so.

[HondaMan]

On a rebuilt engine with clean dry parts one uses assembly lube on bearings and wear points to lubricate them until engine oil gets to them.

I've never used assembely lube, but I've always used something like 75/140 gear oil to coat parts on assembley. Figured it would stick around for a while. Same thing?

Pretty much: assembly lube often adds a little moly to the mix, and some have zinc. I've used Castrol 20w50 for most of my rebuilds, works out fine. The assembly lubes can be real thick and make the initial kickover pretty stiff!

[City Boy]

Hi gang.My assembly regimen is STP on everything and spin the engine plugless till pressure shows on gauge.  Rock On

[jakecb420]

well, the oil pump got primed. i ended up taking 1 and 4 plugs out and cranked the engine for a few seconds and the oil light went out. then i put the plugs back in and put some gas to the carbs. next thing i know, the engine that sat dorment for an unknown number of years fired up. sounds real good.

i hope all this talk about the valve guides going bad on these f3 motors is a bunch of lies. ha.

thank you everyone for your help.

[cookindaddy]

Good news! Well done!

[Gaither]

'Bet we all like happy endings!

I know Jake does.