Author Topic: So... where to begin? (Read 4658 times)

Frankenkit · « **on:** March 12, 2006, 04:40:14 PM »

It's always easiest to begin at the beginning...

I'm starting on a bike reconstruction, to take a 1980 CB650C back to stock (or maybe even better!) condition. The bike in question is still in negotiations- I'll be bringing 'er home Friday, but I've been studying little bits here and there on this site to get ideas.

She's not running now, but was running in July of last year. The PO suspects she'd run with new plugs, but after reading posts here, I've learned to "Presume Nothing".
Incl. is a pic of plug #4, pulled by the PO. He didn't pull any of the other plugs. It looks vaguely oil fouled.

Symptoms go as follows: bike clicks but doesn't start. (stupid me, I didn't make sure the 'run/stop/run' switch was set to 'run' because at the time I saw it, I just didn't know enough about the type of bike to look for that...) Drips small amt of oil, but PO isn't sure where from. I saw no such oil on inspection, however. Battery is a year old and has been on a trickle charger on and off. Bike was stored in an open garage, covered.

I'm assuming right-off-the-bat that I'll have to do a thorough carb cleaning, (any advice on how to clean the fuel filter if such exists?) change the oil&filter, and for safety's sake, change the brake fluid because it absorbs moisture. With gas tank removed for the carb cleaning, I'll probably take the time to do the molasses&water cleaning to try it out (that post made it sound really neat)

Depending on your input on the plugs, I'll likely swap them out as well, for new ones.

Any suggestions as far as where to start? Anything I'm missing?

Most of my posts won't be so long-winded, but I wanted to get everything 'in'. Unfortunately, this isn't my bike, it's a gift to my girlfriend, and will be her first, so I want to get 'er running right.

Arigato,
Kitsune

Bob Wessner · « **Reply #1 on:** March 12, 2006, 04:58:08 PM »

I would say a complete and thorough tune-up would be in order. Have you any kind of shop manual? The brake system inspection and fluid change is also an excellent idea. What about the tires? As for the plug, it's hard to tell from the picture, the tip is out of focus and not facing the primary light source which seems to off to the right. Are you in a position to retake the picture? From what I can tell from the picture posted, the plug doesn't look too bad to me. I've seen worse, however, replacing them with new as part of the tune-up would be a good idea. You will then know their history.

Frankenkit · « **Reply #2 on:** March 12, 2006, 05:25:47 PM »

Unfortunately, I can't re-take the picture. It was one of two sent by the PO, and this was actually the better of the two. =P I'll include the first, which is more of a profile pic... The tires look pretty good from my inspection, but I was planning on replacing them at my earliest convenience (tight $...)

nomadwarmachine · « **Reply #3 on:** March 12, 2006, 05:29:16 PM »

Start off by purchasing a Clymer manual to suit your model immediately. Do not pass "Go" or collect $200 -- do that first.

As far as getting her running, you should start (as Bob suggests) with a basic tune-up. Clean the air filter and tank, check that the carbs are clean (and if not, rebuild them), set the valves/camchain, set the static timing (change points if necessary, unless you have an electronic ignition), check/gap the plugs and fire her up. Once she is running, balance the carbs and then check the timing with a light to make sure everything is popping long. Once you have the motor runnning, you can attend to the brakes, suspension, drivetrain, etc. This site is an incredible resource and people can help you along every step of the way, but you will go crazy without a manual.

As far as the plug is concerned, it looks fine, maybe a little rich, though it is hard to tell from the photo you provided. If there is actually slimy oil on the plug, that is not a good thing, though it can be difficult to distinguish oil (suggesting a blown seal or worn rings) from sooty gas. If it is definitely oil, you may want to consider another bike, since you almost certainly have an engine teardown in your future. Good luck and keep us updated on your progress!

nomadwarmachine · « **Reply #4 on:** March 12, 2006, 05:30:50 PM »

That plug doesn't look too bad to me. You will need to do a tune-up anyway,

Frankenkit · « **Reply #5 on:** March 17, 2006, 09:48:14 PM »

OK- Just got the baby home. Pics as soon as I can beg/borrow/steal a camera for a minute

To my surprise (and intense pleasure) the bike started after a couple squirts of starter fluid, a new gallon 'o gas and I put a bit 'o carb cleaner in said new gallon 'o gas.

But here's where I get to 'read' the problems.

Headers 1 and 2 are quite cool until the bike's been 'running' for awhile. The idle's irratic, usually between 2 and 3 rpms. 3 and 4 heat right up. Exhaust out of 1 and 2 is really just cold air that smells like unburned gas, until it's been running awhile, then it's mildly warm air (still not as warm as the other side) ...still smelling of unburned gas. On pulling the plugs, as expected, 1 and 2 look like they've never fired, but have a good, fat spark. 3 and 4 are a nice light toasty gold. Should I break down and start working on the carbs?

I feel like I've bitten off more than I can chew because this is my first venture into this sort of work...

The 'No Carbs' sign will bring me great comfort.

To add to my work (yeah, glee $:-\$ ) I believe I have a leaking head gasket, heating up and smoking off the side of the hot engine. ... and some other unidentifiable (as of yet) leak coming out the bottom. This is probably going to turn into a big ugly operation, but thank God I have the little hope I do that she's running. The forks and shocks look and feel good, she changes gears, all lights and electrical systems work well... breaks etc.

Oh, and I neglected to mention I do have the clymer manual; I've had it since the beginning.

I have limited tools and means, but I'm trying to do what I can with what I've got...

Any troubleshooting suggestions?

For now, I'm just starting her and letting her idle, touching the throttle now and then to up the rpms to see if working the carb cleaner through the system will change anything before doing open heart surgery on the Beast.

Many thanks, you guys,
-Kitsune

gregimotis · « **Reply #6 on:** March 18, 2006, 04:54:36 AM »

If you've got tit running and have spark on all four, I'd call that a good start.

After making sure I've got good oil, I would check my points. One and two share a common set and three/four are on the other set, I believe. The timing could be badly off or your points burned - your engine can be timed pretty well without a timing light. The instructions are in the FAQ section here.

points are part of the overall tuneup anyway, so you might as well get that dialed in as well as you can. Do your tune-up before getting discouraged.

Also, this site is an incredible resource. Anything SOHC can be fixed here, so don't go away.

Correction: 1 and 3 share points not 1 and 2. This is why one should not post at 5:00 AM.

nomadwarmachine · « **Reply #7 on:** March 18, 2006, 08:36:14 AM »

Start with your valves/camchain, which must both be done when the engine is cold. The Clymer shows you how and it is really not very difficult once you get the knack for it (the resistance you want is about the same as if you stuck the feeler guage between the pages of a phonebook). Once the valves are good, turn to the points plate, check your static timing (which can be done with a $.75 12V light bulb rig from the hardware store) and make sure that your points are in good order (no pitting or burning). Once you have this done, clean out the air filter, replace/clean plugs, and balance the carbs. If your carbs are gummy from old gas you will HAVE to clean them out, which unfortunately means taking the carb bank off of the engine. It is really not such a bad thing, and everybody on the board can help you, but without a clean set of carbs you will never get the bike running right. Do you have any reason to think the carbs might be blocked? Has it sat for a long time? Is there varnish in the tank?

With respect to your mysterious oil leak, start by cleaning the engine, then spray some athelete's foot spray on the bottom of the engine or wherever you suspect the leak to be coming from. When the leak starts you will be able to trace it easily and then replace the gasket/o-ring that is causing it. These SOHC4s spring oil leaks from time to time, which is not surprising when you consider that they are generally more than 30 years old!

Keep us updates, and post pics!!

Frankenkit · « **Reply #8 on:** March 18, 2006, 10:31:19 AM »

Gregimotis- I don't plan on leaving any time soon! There's probably 200+ years of combined experience within these pages! Thanks for the advice!
Nomadwarmachine- The only things really leading me to that conclusion are that although the gas in the tank had stabilizer, it sat for 7 months without running. Aside from that, after spending almost a month reading here and there on this forum, if there's one thing I know is important, it'd be clean carbs.... and if there's one thing I'd bet on, it'd be that these carbs are likely less than sterling.

thanks for your suggestions- I'm going to take the little bit 'o time I have today and start on all that. I'll report my findings tonight.

The best part is my '80s style european motorcycle jacket is finally starting to smell like it's been around a mortorcycle. I only wish my GF was so enthused!

nomadwarmachine · « **Reply #9 on:** March 18, 2006, 12:12:44 PM »

If the gas in the tank was properly mixed with the fuel stabilizer, you shouldn't have any problem after 7 months -- I've stored bikes with stabilizer for longer than that without any problems. The fact that the bike will run suggests that the fuel is still "good" so you may have avoided a tank clean-out. That being said, gum is not the only thing that can foul up your carbs. Once you have everything else set on the bike, (valves, timing, etc.) if it is still not running on those two cylinders you should really do a compression check on those two, and if that turns out well, and you have spark, then the carbs are the problem, and they will have to come off...

cd811 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 18, 2006, 01:38:30 PM »

1 n 4 then 2 n3 share fire...so 1 n 2 not firing don't make since ???pull plugs then reinstall them into spark wires, with switch on(good bat)and plugs laying on engine, open and close point with screwdriver or knife...then you can see what's firing and where...my experience is pilot jets get clogged real easy(storage), then cylinder won;t idle when clogged...try draining carbs at float bowls several times before pulling them...hopefully you'll get lucky

TwoTired · « **Reply #11 on:** March 18, 2006, 03:18:34 PM »

From what I have read so far, I expect your slow jets are plugged on 1&2.
There are a lot of people that think any carb problem must be addressed with a total carb overhaul and removal from the bike. Indeed that is sometimes necessary, but not all the time. Before removing the carb bank, it takes little effort to remove a float bowl from an outside carb. The inside of that will tell you what kind of debris and deposits are in the carbs and if it all has to dismantled, or if you just have to flush them and perhaps remove a slow jet for a back blow to clear it. I've fixed carb problems in as little as 15 minutes in this way. I've also done the hundreds of pieces thing when it was warranted, with the two day soak.

If the head pipes stay cold at idle, but warm when reved, a slow jet is likely plugged. If the spark plug for that cylinder stays dry, but is clearly sparking, maybe the float bowl valve(s) has issues for the carb on that cylinder.

Cheers,

Frankenkit · « **Reply #12 on:** March 18, 2006, 03:51:12 PM »

Thanks for the additional pointers-
I've only really had 2-3 hours to pick around on stuff, but I managed to go out and buy a feeler gauge. I took the head off as per the clymer manual to ... well... get to the valves tomorrow.

Observations on taking the head off:

The inside was amazingly clean. Nice silver aluminum everywhere, but where the gasket was, it was a little crusty with brown... not sure what that is; intend to clean it off unless someone tells me 'not' to. The gasket has the same weird crusty brownish stuff on it but otherwise is soft, pliable, and rubbery. Seems to be in good condition.

Here's where I wish I had a #@*& camera, though...
Along the edge of the head cover, outside the gasket depression, it looks like the PO used some kind of tool to pry it off. It's gouged 1-2mm deep in 2-3 places along the mating surface. Fortunately, the bottom of the head mating surface has no such damage. Should I take a file to it and smooth outstanding burs, then wet-sand and see what I can do to make a nice, smooth, flat surface? Would high-temp JBweld work to fill in the pits?

Other than the cleanliness of the inside of the head, I don't have much else along the lines of observations- ran out of time & had to go to work the moment I had 'er pulled apart (dammit!)

nomadwarmachine · « **Reply #13 on:** March 18, 2006, 04:16:34 PM »

By all means, before pulling the carb bank off the bike, pop the float bowls and have a look at the condition of the innards for 1&2. You may want to spray some carb cleaner/air in the jets to see if you can't shake loose anything that may have lodged in there. As for the head, it is difficult to asses without pictures -- if the mating surfaces are clean, smooth, and even, a new gasket should do the trick.

Frankenkit · « **Reply #14 on:** March 18, 2006, 04:20:29 PM »

I'll see if I can manage a pic. I was insanely careful with the gasket because I don't know that I can afford a new one, as the ones I've seen are just obscenely expensive..

TwoTired · « **Reply #15 on:** March 18, 2006, 07:43:52 PM »

Do I understand this right?
You've removed the cylinder head off the bike and you do not intend to replace the cylinder head gasket?

Frankenkit · « **Reply #16 on:** March 18, 2006, 08:11:25 PM »

Uh, disregard that. I was mistaken... I haven't taken the cylinder head off yet, after tinkering online a bit, I realized I really only took the cylinder cover off, but not the cylinder head... so I'm not down to the head gasket, just the cylinder cover gasket... which I want to try to clean up and reuse until next paycheck when I can shell out for all the appropriate gaskets. I just can't afford the $50 head gasket (and however much the orings cost) right now...

Thank god for looking over parts fiche to know what I'm *really* looking at. sorry about the confusion.

crazypj · « **Reply #17 on:** March 19, 2006, 06:05:28 AM »

Was bike stored on main or side stand? If on side stand you can bet 1&2 cabs are plugged ( it has electronic ignition standard, so forget about points plates) Dont mess about with carb cleaner, you need to get the pilot jets out. they corrode internally but can be cleaned with a copper wire (its softer than the brass jet) dont use the K&L jet reamers (they were designed for welding jets, not carburettor jets and will make pilot jets too big to allow bike to run correctly) I dont remember any easy way to get 650 carbs off bike, even after removing back part of air box the front part contacts frame. Bike may seem to run fine but its easier to do it right the first time rather than pull the head and fit new valves later.
PJ

cd811 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 19, 2006, 01:14:37 PM »

I may be hearing things wrong...but why are you taking the motor apart??

Frankenkit · « **Reply #19 on:** March 19, 2006, 01:25:04 PM »

ok.

I'm trying to do everything 'right the first time' so I don't have to take 'er apart, put 'er together, take 'er apart, etc etc.

One of the o-rings is shot on my head gasket. After hemming and hawing about it, I've decided to actually go for it, rather than clean out the carbs et all first... while I have 'em off, I might as well do everything else.

I have to wait awhile for the funds to get a full gasket kit, because I might as well replace them all while I'm in there... but that'll allow me time to clean everything up.

I'm going to have to see if there are any *worse* leaks around the oilpan, because it's all just coated with oil. Coated. The left exhaust pipe is covered with oil where it runs under it.

I really don't have enough info to continue for now, I'm just taking things apart to assess the situation... I have $20 in my bike budget right now, so assessment and cleaning is the most I can do at the moment... 'til payday.

nomadwarmachine · « **Reply #20 on:** March 19, 2006, 08:52:07 PM »

Kitsune,

If you are going to do a full teardown you will want to replace all of the gaskets that come in the kit. This may solve your leak problem, which could just as likely owe to an oil seal as a gasket (not sure if the full set of seals is included in all of the kits). It is possible that you are leaking oil out of the pan gasket, though I have not seen many of these leak. Since you have oil on the left side, my guess is a tranny gasket or the final drive seal. You may also want to pull the sprocket cover and make sure that you do not have a patch in the sprocket well, a relatively common condition resulting from a thrown chain at one point in the bike's lifetime. If you are patched, don't despair. At the least you can staunch the flow with a little JB Weld, though a proper fix would involve a real weld. Again, don't fret!

This is all part of owning one of these bikes. You will be amazed how good it feels to ride a bike you actually know how to fix. I have had to do numerous roadside fixes over the course of the years, and my experience from basic maintenance has always given me the confidence to attack the problem the right way.

Some photos of my repairs/bikes:
http://www.nomadwarmachine.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=Bikes

Keep us posted, and post photos if you can!!

NWM

Frankenkit · « **Reply #21 on:** March 19, 2006, 08:59:21 PM »

Nomad,
Thanks for all your help... I'm going to thoroughly clean up the bottom and spray it with the aerosol foot powder to see what I can see. I know there's a leak in the head gasket area... the other... I suspect to be near the clutch, actually, but I'd need to clean it up more to know. What have your results been with JBWeld? Is it reliable? Obviously, it won't be weight-bearing, but it won't do anything weird and unexpected like heat up at a rate inconsistant with the aluminum and damage anything etc, will it?

I like to write notes from the info I get here and take 'em out to the shop so I know what I'm looking at... it helps. =)

nomadwarmachine · « **Reply #22 on:** March 20, 2006, 12:05:18 PM »

Kitsune,

Other board members may jump on me for this, but I have not had any trouble patching up the one leak I have encountered due to a cracked case -- it was in the sprocket well and had obviously been patched before, but was still trailing a little oil when the bike was hot. I filed down the old patch and worked the JB Weld into the crevice. After it was dry I never had another problem with leaks from that area and did not notice any expansion/contraction problems.

That being said (and here comes the disclaimer) the only proper way to fix a cracked case is to have it professionally welded. It is possible that this can be done in situ, but it would undoubtedly be best to bring the case itself to a welding shop.

None of this is relevant, however, if you don't have a cracked case, and this is pretty easy to determine. Just remove the two long screws holding the sprocket cover in place and spray some degreaser into the interior of the sprocket well. A crack from a thrown chain or a subsequent path are very easy to spot. If you have a nice smooth case, you don't have to worry about any of this. Just remember to keep the proper tension in your chain, and use an O-Ring chain, and the chances of ever throwing one are extremely low.

NWM

TwoTired · « **Reply #23 on:** March 20, 2006, 12:43:01 PM »

Will an oring 530 chain work on a 650 without case interference? On the 550 you need to go to a 520 chain and sprockets. Is the 650 designed differently in the front sprocket area?

Oil leaks can be nuisance or severe. Severe should be addressed ASAP, of course, not a lot of choice there. However, if money is tight, other bike items can easily absorb available funds. And, an ocasional wipe down or cleanup is much cheaper and less frought with collateral damage than replacing all gaskets with a complete teardown.

I'd rather ride a leaky bike, than stare wistfully at pieces in the garage. Though, in some ways, that can be fun, too.

My 74 Cb550 has had an oil weep near the head gasket for 15 yrs now. The gasket set is still hanging on the wall. I must have used up at least 15 rags. But, it just runs too good to rip it apart. Perhaps earlier Brit bike ownership has made me more tolerant of oil containment issues.

Cheers,

Frankenkit · « **Reply #24 on:** March 20, 2006, 01:37:07 PM »

TT, Ordinarily I'd agree with you, but I'm in a sort of unique situation in that I'm fixing the bike up for my gf, and want it as close to 'perfect' as I can get it within my means and ability (and I'm taking great strides with my ability)... and neither of us have our motorcycle certifications yet. I figured I'd have a lot of work to do on this bike before it was ride-ready, so looking wistfully at pieces is the most either of us can really do, with the promise of someday being able to ride 'er.

I'll see what I can do as far as finding that leak goes... it's still dripping oil while cold. *eyeroll* C'est la vie! Today I get to take her out to the shed and say "this is this, this is what I'm doing here...." etc etc.

Gotta love a girl who both understands and is excited about this stuff!!!

News:

Author Topic: So... where to begin? (Read 4658 times)

cd811

cd811