Author Topic: Bessie, my first rebuild: 78 CB750F3 (Back on the road 2016-05-12)  (Read 70302 times)

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Offline MCRider

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #50 on: December 11, 2010, 07:47:48 PM »
Yeah, I tried heat multiple times. The last try emptied the last of the propane in the cylinder. I'm eyeing the oxy-acy setup in the corner and wondering if perhaps that might be too hot for the aluminum alloy the crankcase is made out of... what do you think? It's no big deal for me to just get more propane at Crappy Tire tomorrow.
The machine shop I used, used a heavy duty torch setup, I'm not familiar with the different kinds. But they say they had to get it REALLY hot. (GaJet is implying that's OK as well) They swear they didn't do any damage to the cases, but i haven't checked them out yet. They had welded a bolt onto the stub of the stud, which had broken almost ast case level, and had a big mother socket and breaker bar on the hex of the bolt. Wish I had stuck around to watch it. Only charged me $20, but it was a stripped out upper case only, easy to work with.
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1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
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Offline wohali

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #51 on: December 12, 2010, 12:29:07 PM »
2 more out. The last - the L shaped one - sheared off, about 1cm left above the surface. Dinged the side of the top of the crankcase for cyl 1 - pictures coming - will probably prevent a seal, very unhappy with myself right now.

Unsure if I will attempt welding the nut or not at this point, don't know of any machine shops near me, and have to rent a car to get anywhere farther away.

Grump. Grr. Boo. Instant picture, better coming later:

Offline wohali

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #52 on: December 12, 2010, 12:48:20 PM »
Closeup:


My partner seems to think he'll be able to fill this with a torch and some aluminum rod well enough. But I still need someone to take out the last bit of that stud. I don't think I trust myself enough at this point.

So, recommendations for a Toronto-area machine shop to take that stud out are highly welcome. I'll probably leave it alone at this point and move on to the rest of the rebuild.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2010, 01:01:30 PM by wohali »

Offline GaJet

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #53 on: December 12, 2010, 05:19:15 PM »
If the case can be set up on a mill the stud can be cut off and then step drilled out, then a Heli-Coil can be installed. It can be fixed.
GaJet

Offline Brown Bomber

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #54 on: December 12, 2010, 05:49:44 PM »
Subscribing here. Looks like you've got the bull by the horns. Anxious to see how your partner does with filling that spot.
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Offline wohali

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Crankcase open!
« Reply #55 on: December 12, 2010, 09:19:16 PM »
GaJet: Hoping that it doesn't come to that, and that the stud can still be removed. Going to let my partner look at it when he comes back next week - he's better with the stick welder than I. If he doesn't feel confident we'll truck it to a machine shop and let them remove it.

Brown Bomber: Yeah I think that'll be not so bad, it's a pretty minor ding and it should be easy to build up, then sand down to level.

Check out this great shot of the evil buggers, including one of the 2 corroded ones where you can see a blue-green shiny metal on the base....copper-based anti-seize maybe? My favourite part of getting them out was the "GASP" as the vacuum behind the stud broke, and a really foul sulphurous smell permeated the workshop. EEW!

Now for the big news:

I GOT THE CRANKCASE APART! WOO! Full gallery here. Remember folks, this is the first time I've ever worked on an engine, so this is pretty magical of a moment for me. Getting the crankcase apart actually wasn't all that bad. Pro tip: Once all the bolts are out, a chunk of wood and a hammer are your friend. I wedged the wood inside the clutch case (but not on the basket!) and gave a gentle tap. Then I went to the other side and did the same thing with the opening for the alternator. I also used the rear and front mounting bolts to get good motion from all 3 sides. Bit by bit it gave way, quite a bit more reasonably than it took to get the cylinders off.

Before the reveal, first a bit of backstory: the previous owner had mentioned that his son had taken a fall on the bike, at speed (on the 401, for you Canadians). Apparently he'd installed the clip in the master chain the wrong way and the chain came off at about 100kph. He kept the bike under control, mostly, but eventually went down on the left side. The highway bars he'd installed took the brunt of it, and there's a bit of scuffing on the alternator. He showed me where there'd been damage to the front sprocket cover, and how it'd been mended with (yeah) JB Weld. I rode the bike a bunch before buying it for $750; it seemed fine to me. THe battery was mostly dead from having been in storage for a number of years, but she kick started fine.

So there's two bits of damage I found that gave me pause. The first is on the points and the spark plug advancer. It looks like there are two tabs that snapped off, that I guess at one point held the advancer to the main drive. I'm guessing that friction alone was keeping it working. Going to have to decide what to do here - build back up the bits that held it together, or find a new advancer/points mechanism.

The other bit is behind all that JB Weld, just rear of the front sprocket. I'll let the pictures speak for themselves. Note I never experienced any oil leakage from here, and it IS the top crankcase...but it's still gut-wrenchingly awful to see. My partner also thinks he can repair this by gouging out a bit more to get more surface area, then filling, then filing to finish.

First peek inside the crankcase


Auugh!


Gruuuugh!


Suggestions welcome!

Offline wannabridin

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #56 on: December 12, 2010, 09:32:33 PM »
get a new top case!  i have one that's in a little better shape, doesn't have the damage like that.  i would have to remove all the studs though first...  otherwise, e-bay for a top case half.  i don't even think that's worth fixing!  man i must be lucky, i had all my studs out in 20 minutes!  all i needed was a pair of vise grips for most of them, only had to use about 30 seconds of heat from my propane torch on 3 of them.  i double nutted the others just to use the impact driver so it would go faster than spinning it out with the grips!   ;D
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Offline GammaFlat

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #57 on: December 12, 2010, 09:37:42 PM »
dangety dang!  I think you need cases - as in both halves.  It's been reported here (on the forum) that trying to marry halves that don't already know each other doesn't end well. 
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Offline wannabridin

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #58 on: December 12, 2010, 09:40:27 PM »
touche!  disregard my post, and just find yourself a new SET of cases! 
1976 CB750K, currently under construction:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=64468.0

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Offline wohali

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #59 on: December 12, 2010, 09:46:38 PM »
There's someone near Toronto selling a full K8 engine for $300, but I'd only need the cases. I think he posted on this forum. Interestingly, that case has similar damage to the bolt hole just behind the sprocket, too!

As for eBay, it's not like it is down in the states...shipping on these heavy things is expensive and I can't imagine what customs would charge me as well were I to get a set from y'all down there. I presume I'd need to do more than just replace the cases too, wouldn't I? Such as bearings casings to match? Starts to get expensive fast.

So no one thinks this can be repaired? Though it's heresy, the JB Weld the previous owner applied seems to have held just fine for a few years while I learned to ride on this machine...and it is the top end. I don't think I'd just stay with that but it is painful. I fear I'd be waiting for a long time to get a new F2 case...longer if I wait for something local...would like to have this back out on the road in the spring, yanno.

Also - no comments about the apparent damage near the points?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2010, 09:50:29 PM by wohali »

Offline MidnightLamp

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #60 on: December 12, 2010, 09:52:22 PM »
 :o That's some knarly damage.

I'll wait for some more gurus to chime in, but I doubt that would be unfixable?  ???

Realistically, people get the heads heliarced for cracks, and I've seen drag racing brit bikes with "small" holes from things leaving the engine that've been welded shut  :o

If all else fails though I have a spare F2 set of cases I may be willing to part (I'm one province to the west of you).
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Offline wohali

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #61 on: December 12, 2010, 09:55:37 PM »
Friend who's good with welding suggested this stuff (Muggy Weld) might be good for repairing the crankcase damage. It's not in a critical spot as far as I can tell, it just needs to be air tight...

Then again another set of F2 cases might be preferable. :)
« Last Edit: December 12, 2010, 10:09:15 PM by wohali »

Offline wohali

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #62 on: December 12, 2010, 10:01:19 PM »
Another strange point: even though this bike is Ontario registered no problem, I can't find a VIN anywhere on the frame head. The VIN on the registration matches the year, as does the engine #. .I have yet to take a wire wheel to it but it sure looks like the original paint so I'm reluctant. No sign of being worn down or replaced, and no sign of a tag on the other side. Maybe this is an unstamped replacement frame?

Offline wohali

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2010, 10:23:49 PM »
OK I'm going to answer my own post on the points. Looks like the advancer "dogs" have gotten sheared off, if this image of a "stock" advancer is correct.

Found a set on eBay for $12.50 from the US...unless someone else in the SOHC4 family that is the forum would rather take my hard earned money instead? ;)

Someone else's unbusted advancer, possibly pre-K2


My advancer
« Last Edit: December 12, 2010, 10:39:12 PM by wohali »

Offline wannabridin

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #64 on: December 12, 2010, 10:26:35 PM »
i think i have one for ya from a '75 or '76.  need pics?  i also have practically an entire motor for sale minus the cases and head!  just in case you need something.
1976 CB750K, currently under construction:
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-And if you don't do it this year, you'll be one year older when you do...

Offline wohali

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #65 on: December 12, 2010, 10:47:40 PM »
wannabridin: Thanks - see your PM!

All: Still interested in your thoughts on the cases and frame #. Reluctant to let the original case go, but if the consensus is not to fix...

Tomorrow, to start cleaning and inspecting everything. Be prepared for more newbie questions! At least I can give my sore, bruised hands a rest for a while!  8)

Offline wannabridin

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #66 on: December 12, 2010, 10:49:47 PM »
just fyi, if you don't already have some, get a decent little set of precision instruments.  harbor freight has a nice sec of micrometers and ID bore gauges, along with a set of calipers.  you can get all this for under $50 with some coupons!  def. worth the money for me, as i've used them each day for 2 weeks measuring all the tolerances to see what is usable and what is trash! 
1976 CB750K, currently under construction:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=64468.0

-And if you don't do it this year, you'll be one year older when you do...

Offline wohali

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #67 on: December 12, 2010, 10:58:03 PM »
No Harbor Freight in Canada, but we have Princess Auto. Very similar kind of store. :)

Fortunately my workshop is well stocked. I have 3 caliper/micrometers: one cheap plastic one, one nice metal one with a dial, one digital one, and a dial indicator with magnetic stand, but no ID bore gauges yet. (Lee Valley didn't have one last I went there.) I'll be in SF over the holidays, so maybe I can hit the Newark, CA store and get one there. They probably also have the hone that I want...the Canadian Tire one doesn't look too well made.

Offline wohali

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #68 on: December 13, 2010, 05:34:41 PM »
Taking the night off because I'm sore from all the wrenching.

Current thinking: get the F3 case repaired, since I can't find any suitable replacement nearby (the nearby K8 engine has the exact same damage!) Have the stud removed and the gaps filled, possibly an Al plate placed over the weak area behind the sprocket as well.

Need a source for a good machine shop in Toronto, or my partner better be as good at welding as he claims :)

Next: Measurements on all the bits to be sure that it's worth taking that step.

Offline wannabridin

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #69 on: December 14, 2010, 11:21:33 AM »
here's the advancers i have.  if anyone knows the difference between the two and which one is more "performance" i would appreciate it.  then i'll sell you the other one  ;D ;D 
1976 CB750K, currently under construction:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=64468.0

-And if you don't do it this year, you'll be one year older when you do...

Offline wohali

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Good news
« Reply #70 on: December 14, 2010, 11:24:22 AM »
Good news, everyone!  </professor_farnsworth>

Gord Bush in Toronto (respected machinist and endorsed by several on this forum) thinks the crank case is completely reparable. He sees no problem getting that stud out, thinks the nick is no big deal (!) and that the gasket will take care of it, and is comfortable welding a repair to the crack behind the sprocket!

I feel confident again. Will probably start doing measurements later tonight.

Offline MCRider

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #71 on: December 14, 2010, 11:29:42 AM »
Yay! Those guys are magicians! (anyone who can do that kind of work, cuz I sure can't)
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Offline Tintop

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Re: Good news
« Reply #72 on: December 14, 2010, 06:08:10 PM »
Good news, everyone!  </professor_farnsworth>

Gord Bush in Toronto (respected machinist and endorsed by several on this forum) thinks the crank case is completely reparable. He sees no problem getting that stud out, thinks the nick is no big deal (!) and that the gasket will take care of it, and is comfortable welding a repair to the crack behind the sprocket!
I feel confident again. Will probably start doing measurements later tonight.

Just finished reading through your build.  Great start!
 
Was going to suggest welding the cracks, but seems you've already solved / sourced the solution.  I've had an alloy head welded back up after a valve decided to part company.  Damaged the chamber and put a crack into the water jacket.  It's still being used in a race motor, so wouldn't have any quams about fixing those cracks that way.

Hope you get to some of the rides the ON SOHC'ers are talking about for next year.
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
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Offline 2256

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #73 on: December 14, 2010, 07:40:41 PM »
Hey Wohali, I am a new member here and I am doing a '78 750k myself. I noticed you were looking for some parts and we have a guy just north of Kingston who sells all kinds of older bike parts. His business card says Harriman tire sales but he has a field full of old japanese bikes and collects the interesting ones himself. His phone number is 613-374 1130. Good luck with your build and keep us all informed.
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Offline Zaipai

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #74 on: December 15, 2010, 07:43:24 PM »
Welcome aboard, just read through this thread, nice start should be great when you finish it.. Nice work so far.

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