Topic: Engine can-o-worms need some advice/help

[knowsnothing]

Bike:  

K8 with 30,000+ miles on it.  




Background:  

I purchased the bike about a year and a half ago.  It is my first bike purchase ever and it was running when i got.  I definitly paid too much for it (blame it on naivety) and the PO i got it from didn't know the history of the bike.  However, it looks like everything has been gone through by someone (i will get back to that later) at least once.  It was in pretty rough cosmetic shape so I decided to tear it down and build it back up.  It was also my first venture into any type of mechanics so it was a learning experience if nothing else.  I ended up picking up another K8 in better shape for a 3rd of the price and got side tracked.  That bike is now my running beater bike so I am back to working on the 1st one.  From what i found while tearing it down, i don't trust any of the previous work so I have decided to take at least the top end off and see what i see.... I am glad i did.....

Current:

First off, please admire these fasteners -

[knowsnothing]

Second:

I took the cover off and this is what I found -









As you can see, there are pretty significant gouges from the chain as well as 2 large holes.  In the last picture (i know its a little blurry sorry) you can see that the chain is also eating a little of the head on the right.  I am pretty sure the holes aren't supposed to be there, but i could be wrong    Is this cover just scrap now?  Or can i repair it?  Or does it not matter?

[KingCustomCycles.com]

Those "fasteners" were all the rage in 1978..........They are a common aftermarket "upgrade"

[knowsnothing]

Ha good to know, thanks King   

[MCRider]

The cover is the least of your worries. Why is the chain into the cover? There should be a bolt and washer in the end of the camshaft which keeps the camshaft from drifting back and forth.

Or did the sprocket come loose from the cam at some point?

There is likely metal shavings (aluminum) in the oil pump screen and elsewhere.

[knowsnothing]

After seeing the that damage i dropped the oil pan and was surprised to see very little shavings.  I checked them with a magnate and they did not stick so i am guessing its aluminum.  Due to the lack of serious metal fragments, the majority of the damage must have happened previously.  I also noticed that one of the long middle bolts was missing from the rocker shaft (i think that's the right term) and that the whole cam looked a little cockeyed.  It looks like the cam is favoring the right side.  Could the missing bolt be what is causing the gouging??  A vibration effect?

Shavings



Missing bolt



Slanted?

[knowsnothing]

Thanks MC i had the same thought 

[MCRider]

So, the mising bolt is likely not the cause of any problem, yet. it is a major hold down for the cam block/bearing. Being gone makes me suspicious the threads are stripped and the PO left it out because it wouldn't tighten up.

I'm still curious, on the opposite end of the cam from where the missing bolt is, there should be a bolt running into the end of the cam, which has a large thick washer between the bolt head and the end of the cam. Got one?

[knowsnothing]

Lastly -

Another scary thing is that some of the other nuts were loose to the point were i could spin them with my fingers.  I guess this too maybe be causing the issue.  I am currently stuck.  I can't get one of the camshaft bearing bolts loose.  It is too tight to get a socket on and a PO gummed it up a bit.  I made it worse trying to get it loose with a wrench. Anyone have any tips for this.  I tightened the nut next to it in hope of taking some pressure off of the stuck one, but it didn't work.  Do I drill the head of it off in a worse case scenario?  I was worried about the shavings getting everywhere if i did that.  Again, thanks for your time, I am currently in over my head  

Stubborn one

[knowsnothing]

So, the mising bolt is likely not the cause of any problem, yet. it is a major hold down for the cam block/bearing. Being gone makes me suspicious the threads are stripped and the PO left it out because it wouldn't tighten up.

I'm still curious, on the opposite end of the cam from where the missing bolt is, there should be a bolt running into the end of the cam, which has a large thick washer between the bolt head and the end of the cam. Got one?

Yeah it was there, bolt and washer both.  I didn't check to see if it was on snug, but i did give the cam a wiggle.  There was about 2-5mm worth of play, not sure if that is much.  Also, i guess i should mention that when i was taking the rocker shafts out, i had to compress the springs on 3 of the 4 to get them out.  Not sure if it was due to the position of the cam, but according to Hman's book, if you loosen the rocker adjusting nuts you should be able to get the shafts out if the cam is stock.  I couldn't.   Granted, his book doesn't really deal with K8s, but i figured it would be the same.  

[MCRider]

Half wishing it wasn't there. Oh well. 

As to rocker arms/pivots I wouldn't think they would all come out easily unless you set the cam properly for each pair in turn, even with the adjusters backed all the way out. OCICBW.

K8 should be included, nothing material had changed by then as far as the valve operation.

[MoMo]

Another scary thing is that some of the other nuts were loose to the point were i could spin them with my fingers.  I guess this too maybe be causing the issue.  I am currently stuck.  I can't get one of the camshaft bearing bolts loose.  It is too tight to get a socket on and a PO gummed it up a bit.  I made it worse trying to get it loose with a wrench. Anyone have any tips for this.  I tightened the nut next to it in hope of taking some pressure off of the stuck one, but it didn't work.  Do I drill the head of it off in a worse case scenario?  I was worried about the shavings getting everywhere if i did that.  Again, thanks for your time, I am currently in over my head   

Tap it from the top with a drift and a mallet, the shock will help to loosen the bolt.  Buy a six point, thin wall socket, I am sure Snap On has one but Sears may too.  I never use anything other than six point sockets, gives a better grip and prevents buggered heads like you have, Larry

[knowsnothing]

Tap it from the top with a drift and a mallet, the shock will help to loosen the bolt.  Buy a six point, thin wall socket, I am sure Snap On has one but Sears may too.  I never use anything other than six point sockets, gives a better grip and prevents buggered heads like you have, Larry

Thanks photolar.  I actually have a 6 point set from sears.  It has done the trick so far.  Its just that the bolt is too close to the cam shaft holder and the socket doesn't have the clearance it needs.  I guess it need to make a tool run.  Sweet!!

[knowsnothing]

Half wishing it wasn't there. Oh well. 

MC you are starting to scare me 

[MCRider]

Don't mean to. Never seen a scar like that in a cam cover. Something caused it. 

I guess the thing happened first, then the PO fixed it, and stripped the bolt hole. Well you've got a rider, so carry on! 

[knowsnothing]

Don't mean to. Never seen a scar like that in a cam cover. Something caused it. 

I guess the thing happened first, then the PO fixed it, and stripped the bolt hole. Well you've got a rider, so carry on! 

Thanks, MC.  I will try to keep this thread updated so the mystery may by solved one day 

[gnarlycharlie4u]

oh god why?
that looks scary.

As for removing stuck bolts or anything, get yourself an impact wrench. I bought both a hand powered one for $20 from sears and an air impact wrench (ingersol rand) for like $120

I have saved that much in headaches alone in the 2 months that I've had them.

My suggestion for the rest of it: complete teardown. I know it sounds awful but who knows what gremlins are lurking in a bike like that. After seeing how the cam chain ate a bunch of the cover... I'm afraid I wouldn't trust anything else until I knew for sure that it looked ok.

[KingCustomCycles.com]

Ride it till it drops, buy another engine for $150.00 install, ride again.

[gnarlycharlie4u]

Ride it till it drops, buy another engine for $150.00 install, ride again.

I would like an engine for $150 please. <3

I don't even need it but at that price I'd have fun rebuilding it

[KingCustomCycles.com]

If you are serious, I have 5 complete project engines that are not locked up but have various issues like oil burning and low compression.  I was waiting for some slow time to rebuild them, or when prices reached a point to make it worth while.  That day is coming soon it looks like.  Anyway, work out the shipping or pick-up here in Indiana and I will sell them all if you like. 

[gnarlycharlie4u]

If you are serious, I have 5 complete project engines that are not locked up but have various issues like oil burning and low compression.  I was waiting for some slow time to rebuild them, or when prices reached a point to make it worth while.  That day is coming soon it looks like.  Anyway, work out the shipping or pick-up here in Indiana and I will sell them all if you like. 

I am serious. Not immediately serious but near future serious for sure. Right now I'm out of room. I've got 3 bikes in various pieces and can't really spend anything until after the holidays. However I will probably be getting back to you about it after the new years.

I'll pm you about them.

[knowsnothing]

Ride it till it drops, buy another engine for $150.00 install, ride again.

Hey King,  I already have one i am riding till it drops (avatar).  This was going to be my "nice" one.  In your option, is it even worth digging deeper in this engine and fixing it?

[camelman]

Here are a few ideas to remove that bolt.

1) Cut crosshairs into it with a dremel and use an impact screwdriver to remove it.
2) File down the sides with a handfile or dremel until you can get a smaller socket to catch.
3) Weld a bolt or nut onto the head of the buggered bolt and unscrew it with that.
4) Drill the head off the bolt.  If you are worried about chips, then use some metallic HVAC duct tape to layer everything around the bolt so that no chips get into your engine.  You can drill through that tape like metal without it bunching up and tearing off, so it is easy to lay up a cover.

I've done the first two myself multiple times with great results.  I paid a machinist to do the third for a couple broken bolts in my lower casing half.  I've used the fourth option before, and will be using it on my CB350f to helicoil a couple messed up valve cover boltholes soon (with the valve cover off).

Camelman

[Stev-o]

Ride it till it drops, buy another engine for $150.00 install, ride again.

Hey King,  I already have one i am riding till it drops (avatar).  This was going to be my "nice" one.  In your option, is it even worth digging deeper in this engine and fixing it?

You could rebuild it, but it will be expensive. I agree w/king, look for another motor.

[knowsnothing]

thanks for all your opinions guys.  I decided to go ahead and keep going with tearing it down.  Its practice right?!  Well my disaster engine is getting less disaster-ish the further i dig. 

Upon a recommendation here, i picked up some thinner walled sockets and managed to get that troublesome bolt out after manning up a bit.  Then it was smooth sailing from then on.  I don't really know what i should be looking for in terms of cam damage and pictures can be deceiving, but the cam didn't look hideous. 

MC, here is that picture you were looking for earlier



And a few more





It doesn't look like there is some wear, but i don't know to what extent.  I may bring it to a few local guys that know a lot more than thou and see what they think.