Author Topic: drop the needles a notch??  (Read 1515 times)

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Offline Jay B

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drop the needles a notch??
« on: March 19, 2006, 07:44:06 AM »
I've got the carbs off my 350f for a head gasket change. Now's the time to tinker. Here's the deal. I'm running everything stock, jets, needle, airbox, etc, except for a pretty free flowing 4 into 2 exhaust. It starts and runs great with one minor glitch. If I'm going down the road at say 60mph and back off the throttle and then pick up again at say 50mph, it stutters abit, like its clearing its throat before resuming. No backfire or popping on decel, the plugs are a deep brown color, but not wet or sooty. Seems to me I should drop the needle a notch (lean it out a bit), but with the freer flowing exhaust it would seem you'd need to do the opposite. Any ideas as to which way I should try in the hopes of hitting a home run the first try? This is a very minor deal, I could just live with it but then there's that line about the relentless pursuit of perfection.......
Jay
'77 CB550K
'74 CB350F cafe
2001 Road King
'73 CB175

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: drop the needles a notch??
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2006, 07:59:55 AM »
I'll take a stab at this, but do not rely on my advice, wait for another opinion. My thinking would be it is not the needle setting but rather the slow jet/air screw settings. Once you release the throttle to decelerate, the needles drop and you are essentially on the slow or idle circuit. This may be a bit rich. Again, best if you wait for a second opinion. As is usually the case, I'll watch to see and learn also.  ;)
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Offline scondon

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Re: drop the needles a notch??
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2006, 09:27:39 AM »
My thinking would be it is not the needle setting but rather the slow jet/air screw settings.

    I've only started tinkering with carb performance in the last year or so, but I'd agree with Bob as far as the air screws are concerned. My thinking is you would want to richen the idle mixture for the open exhaust. Easy enough to take a screwdriver with you and try different settings on the road.

BTW, I used to just pull the plugs and check them after I had parked the bike and would make tuning decisions from what I saw. I ended up with carbs that ran ok in one throttlr range and poorly in another(idle vs. 1/2 throttle). Now I do three plug chops (idle, 1/2 throttle, wide open) to get a more complete picture. Jet needle positions affect the 1/4 to 3/4 throttle range so i'd do a plug chop after 1/2 mile to 1 mile ride at 1/2 throttle before making any changes.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2006, 09:34:34 AM by scondon »
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cd811

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Re: drop the needles a notch??
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2006, 01:51:50 PM »
I'm really not familiar with those bikes at all, but I'm going to guess they don't have an accelerator pump...like my early 750 carbs...without these I believe(and this is just my opinion) you and I will get these weird flat spots :)

Offline Jay B

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Re: drop the needles a notch??
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2006, 04:14:25 PM »
You're right cd811, there's no accel pumps on the carbs. I thought of that too after I posted. Good advice all around, I really need to do a plug chop or two to see what's going on. I'll mess with the pilot screws also, it's sure by far the easiest thing to try. Thanks Gents.
Jay
'77 CB550K
'74 CB350F cafe
2001 Road King
'73 CB175

Offline TwoTired

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Re: drop the needles a notch??
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2006, 05:11:45 PM »
The accelerator pumps were put on larger engines and larger Carb bores to overcome the lean burn idle many machines were re-tuned to provide for EPA concerns.  Previous engines and smaller ones relied on over rich idle mixture settings to provide engine response from low throttle positions.  Carbs without accelerator pumps can not accept snap open throttle with out a major wheeze response.  However, throttle position changes of 1/2 a twist should result in good, smooth engine pickup.

I suggest you temporarily mark your twist grip so you have a positive reference about just where the throttle is when you have your performance issue.  Depending on where your throttle is positioned, 1 of 4 metering devices in each carb determine the mixture delivery; slow jets, throttle cutaway, slide needles, and main jet.  The throttle cutaway is not normally adjusted as you actually have to add or remove metal from the slides.  But, these have a dominant impact on mixture during the transition from the slow or idle fuel metering device to the needle jet system.

Dark brown is an indication of over rich, but unless you've limited your run time to specific throttle settings, knowledge of which devices are causing rich or lean conditions is unknown.  (I'm going to assume you are reading the correct part of the spark plug and they were clean before the most recent test.)

Lastly, the idle air bleeds often need a different run position when change exhaust or intake components, as the factory found our where that setting was appropriate with those run conditions.  The air bleeds either add air the idle mix or restrict it.   If they are set too lean, powered pickup from idle or near idle setting will result in hesitation and a "wheeze" before the bike accelerates under throttle changes of 1/2 a twist.  If too rich it might burble with acceleration, but it might not as much more fuel is required for accelleration.  However, if you can snap the throttle open and accelerate smoothly it is definitely too rich at idle.

To find the idle screw settings that match your configuration, do this.  Begin with factory settings, drive the bike and note engine pickup response to throttle in gear from near idle RPMs.  Now open the screw 1/8 to 1/4.  You should find that the driving throttle response is more sensitvie to how much you've changed the throttle position.  If not, open the screws some more.   At some point in this re-iterative process, you will find that throttle response is so dismal you can't stand it.  You've gone too far, then and should turn them back to where you are happy with the smooth pick up provide with about 1/2 a throttle twist from idle.  It is possible that your new idle screw settings could be less, more or even the same as the factory specs.  But, with engine breathing changes, you don't know until you find the sweet spot for the new setup.  This may or may not fix your cruise/throttle issue.  But, it does address one metering device in the carbs.

One diagnostic technique is the temporarily removal of the air filter to determine if conditions in your problem area improve or worsen.  The partial choking effect provided by the air filter is removed and leans the mixture some.  Conversely adding partial choke enriches the mixture.  With these two diagnostic tools and reading spark plugs, it should give you a good avenue to approach making carbs changes in the correct direction.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.