Topic: "Ethanol is not an ideal transportation fuel." —Energy Secretary Steven Chu

[ev0lve]

http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/dec2010/bw20101221_927461.htm
http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/may2009/bw20090514_058678.htm

"One of the reasons I made that mistake is that I paid particular attention to the farmers in my home state of Tennessee, and I had a certain fondness for the farmers of Iowa because I was about to run for President." - Al Gore

Strangely, this makes me like him more.

Interesting info in the comments on /. as well concerning corn vs other crops and relative gas mileage but turns to crap about 20 in.
http://politics.slashdot.org/story/10/12/26/2032257/Once-Darling-Ethanol-Losing-Friends-In-High-Places?from=rss

Anyways, articles on track with forum members observations and a few actual statistics.

[Retro Rocket]

Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe and the answer to our energy problems, large corporations and subservient governments are the problem, can't have new technology while BP and co are still pushing oil up our buts and making a fortune out of it....

Mick

[ev0lve]

I'm thinking electrics are the easiest transition but there's only slightly fewer problems with it than hydrogen currently - electricity generation with fossil fuels vs hydrogen generation with electricity and distribution.

Here in the Northwet it's less of a concern on electricity than in the east since we have all these nice dams going for us - but they have their own problems as well.

No easy way forward.

[Retro Rocket]

I saw a story recently about a power plant run by hydrogen in Europe somewhere, it is a very simple set up and some of its own power is used to get the hydrogen from water. Electric cars will come and go because at the moment they run on electricity produced by dirty coal fired power stations or even worse, nuclear power stations, Coal seam gas is all the rage at the moment but it will decimate aquifers and under ground water. Hydrogen is the future and it is just a matter of time before it becomes the norm......In some countries, solar will be massive along with wind generators...There is still too much money to be made out of out dated power generation and fuels....

Mick

[the technological J]

or even worse, nuclear power stations,

why is this worse nuclear power is a large over head to get running but runs cheap for years and years.... tranoble was preventable and three mile island didnt kill anybody whats wrong with nuclear power?

[ev0lve]

or even worse, nuclear power stations,

why is this worse nuclear power is a large over head to get running but runs cheap for years and years.... tranoble was preventable and three mile island didnt kill anybody whats wrong with nuclear power?

The waste - which has to be contained for a few thousand years.

I don't disagree with hydrogen as the best source it's just that, currently and like corn, it's takes as much or a little more energy to produce it than it yields. Couple that up with distribution issues and it's a non-starter - currently.

Seems that if we could get our acts together on renewables, solar/wind/tides, and a way to get it from the west to the east and some way of storing it that's the way to go. But then you're up against the infrastructure problem again.

Mostly these articles are about the corrosive effects of ethanol, how dumb and corrupt the 15% proposals are and how it's definitely not the way forward even as an interim solution on the way to biofuels.

[Retro Rocket]

The waste - which has to be contained for a few thousand years.

Absolutely, we really need to start being cleaner with what we do, you see what a small amount of pollution does to a creek, on a much larger scale we are poisoning our environments for 100's of generations.Nuclear energy is very expensive, produces extremely toxic waste, become very dangerous with age, and provide a risk that i personally don't think is worth taking...We need to be smarter with how we produce power and we have abundant power in solar, wind, water and things like hydrogen, it isn't that expensive to produce any more, we just have to work out how to introduce such things so as to not completely kill off complete industries and create chaos,  but to transition, and start doing it now.

Mick

[Gaither]

IMHO (I'm not attempting to alter anyone's thinking or opinion/s!)

Hydrogen is the way to go - IF big oil doesn't wind up controling it. Cheap abundant, burns cleanly and makes a lot of sense.
 
Distribution would not be a problem for long IF big oil wasn't in the way of it. They are successfully blocking the way and will so long as they can continue to rip us off for gas/oil. They have the money - thus the clout to keep hydrogen off the market.

Further, big oil is why we haven't built a new refinery in 40 years (although they have shut down far too many during that time) and why the gov wont allow drilling of our own PROVEN vast gas/oil reserves. The Overthrust Belt (gas & oil reseves) runs from Russia down through Alaska, through the heart of the U.S. into Mexico and contains enough gas/oil to last this country hundreds of years (this is just one of 'em). Many other such PROVEN reserves exist, on-shore and on dry land. Who is drilling and putting 'em into production? All the while, big oil want us to believe gas/oil is scarce and we're gonna run out of reserves. Hogwash! All lies for profit - an OUR expense!

One guy - with the money to do so - tried for over 15 years to get a permit to build a new refinery - spent millions in the process. In the end, the gov  told him he would have to choose a new site and start all over. This with the gov claiming we are short on refinery capacity! This is a matter of record. Obviously, the "powers that be" do NOT want any new refineries built!

There is no "hydrogen distribution problem". No need to ship hydrogen - just generate it at hydrogen filling stations. Sure, it would cost some bucks but it would pay out quickly. It is being done successfully today in a small country I can't recall the name of. A full documentary was made on this and on TV in the last year.If it was desirable by big oil and/or the "powers that be" we could all be burning hydrogen in 5 years. They don't want it so we ain't gonna get it! We are all victims!

One guy - works for big ois in Texas - told me that as long as we are willing to pay what we do for bottled water, we can expect high prices for gas/oil. I got the message.

If you want a hydrogen generator, look on the net. Lots of 'em for sale. Fairly easy to convert an engine/vehicle to burn it. (Our local gas co burns natural gas in all of their vehicles.) I knew a guy who converted a Flathead Ford truck to propane 60 years ago. It would outperform similar trucks by 150%. Hydrogen would be just as easy to use.   

'Sorry I got started. Just remember, I'm not attempting to change anyone'e opinion plus, I have no desire to argue about any of this. You might do your own research if you wish.

May we all ride safely, with a big grin!   

[Retro Rocket]

I couldn't agree more.....

Mick

[trueblue]

The biggest problem with using hydrogen in an engine is without the carbon molecule that is present in hydrocarbons, eg petrol, diesel and LPG, its burn rate is very fast and therefore it is very prone to detonation, I'm not saying it can't be done, but it is tricky to achieve. I saw on a doco the other week, I think on discovery channel, they were synthesizing petrol from getting hydrogen from water, and carbon from co2 in the atmosphere, which if they could get to work on an industrial scale I think would be bloody brilliant, there would be no need to modify any of the older vehicles and the fuel is carbon neutral because the carbon the fuel releases when burned was removed from the atmosphere in the production stage.

[74cb750]

I read an article a few weeks back about someone converting carbon dioxide into hydrogen using
solar power and, cesium (a misnamed  "rare metal"). The conversion rate was under .07 percent
per energy used. Less than one percent is rather low but they hope to be able to make it viable
when they can figure out how to get it over 24.0 percent.

[tramp]

fusion
we can make it happen

[Damfino]

fusion
we can make it happen

[Gaither]

IMHO

Solar and windmills are both sad, uneconomical, political jokes. Just observe the cost/return figures.

The problem is not "how do what" in a reasonable, economical manner.

The problem is simply that big oil wants to (and will) continue to rip us off and the politicians will do anything (other than what makes sense) to get re-elected (at the expense of all of us). And, most of the media will do whatever to promote both of 'em in their quests. So, we will continue to be "at their Mercy" and be ripped-off.

"They" ain't on our side!

FWIW (Believe it or not.)

When the first so-called "fuel shortage" hit in the '70's, I ran a brokerage. I had access to thousands of gallons of gasoline and jet fuel at a penny over wholesale by rail or barge. Couldn't sell a gallon of it!

No one had anywhere to unload it.  ALL storage facililties were FULL! What kind of "shortage" was that?! All the rail tank cars were sitting on sidings - waiting for the prices to go up further! The "shortage" was just a hugh, expensive (to the public) LIE!

At the height of the "embargo" there were hugh vessels of gasoline/oil readily available sitting off-shore in the Gulf. I had opportunity to buy 3 ship loads at wholesale. OUR gov would NOT allow them to dock - so, no means to unload 'em - because of our gov! So, who embargoed whom!

The entire mess was all contrived - and still is now!

[Skunk Stripe]

Actually solar is very viable. I will not take transport issues as an argument against it either as many areas require long distance power transmission already and so it is nothing new. Solar panels are starting to hit over 40% efficiency. Traditional coal fired plants are not much better and have major drawbacks.

[Retro Rocket]

Solar and windmills are both sad, uneconomical, political jokes. Just observe the cost/return figures.

Solar is great and very popular in Australia. Every new house in Queensland has to have solar hot water and now plenty of people have taken advantage of the Governments "solar rebate" and have fitted Photo voltaic panels. The average house only needs between 8 and 12 panels to break even, you stay connected to the grid but extra power generated by the solar set up goes back into the grid and comes off the power that is used from the mains, it is quite simple to have either very low or no power bills at all. I suppose most in the States aren't that familiar with solar but it has been around for as long as i can remember in Australia. Also the use of LP gas for cars has been around here since the late 60's. All taxi's in Australia run on LP gas.....The technology is already there for change but as Gaither has pointed out, politics and money dictate the rules......There is a lot of misinformation around about solar,wind, wave, and other forms of power generation that work and work well and i am sure if all the Nuclear proponents new this, there would be a lot less people supporting nuclear power, which is both very expensive and extremely dirty and a massive hazard in the long term..

Mick