Author Topic: Stainless vs Aluminum - Engine Hex Bolts (Read 13810 times)

Free Booter · « **on:** January 02, 2011, 07:22:45 PM »

I had just purchased a set of Stainless Steel Hex bolts for my engine to replace the old worn out factory Philips Bolts. Someone told me..."You gonna have problems with those...Steel don't play nice with aluminum."
WTF?
By this I could only surmise that he was referring to the hardness of steel threads on the bolts against the softer aluminum threads would cause issues of some sort.

First off... The engine case is Aluminum?

I'm no expert and I certainly wouldn't claim to be...or I wouldn't have asked...so

Who knows the answer?

Incidentally, this first post has been edited.

Stev-o · « **Reply #1 on:** January 02, 2011, 07:35:07 PM »

He has a point - when two unlike metals "mate", oxidation can occur.
Yes, the cases are aluminum, but the stock hardware is zinc coated, I believe, and really not an issue.
If you have real concern, and I don't, you can simple use a small amount of anti-seize compound and have no worries.

kslrr · « **Reply #2 on:** January 02, 2011, 07:38:09 PM »

You'll be fine. The stock Honda bolts are zinc plated steel, Harley's use SS with their aluminum cases.
Just follow torque specs, where indicated.

MCRider · « **Reply #3 on:** January 02, 2011, 07:40:04 PM »

Here's the deal. (yes the engine cases are aluminum.)
First off the stock Phillips heads are steel, so the statement "steel v aluminum" is off the mark. the steel screws will stick to the aluminum, but its tolerable and takes a long time for issues. The stick occurs under the head where it contacts the covers, where the elements can get to it and not (so much) at the thread level.

Now I'm assuming rather than Hex Bolts, you actually got stainless steel allen screws?

What he's really talking about is the issue of STAINLess steel against aluminum. There is a chemical reaction that occurs, again over time, and wil stick the stainless to the aluminum worse than non-stainless.

You know we all use these stainless screw kits so there must be more to the story. And that is, you should use a readily available "anti-seize" compound when installing stainless screw kits. A little on the threads, and a little under each head. As so: http://www.sacskyranch.com/antiseize.htm

Available at all fine auto stores.

Having said that, I've put in many stainless kits way back before I knew about anti seize and lived to tell the tale. No big deal.

Free Booter · « **Reply #4 on:** January 02, 2011, 07:47:53 PM »

Thanks. It just drives me nuts when anyone (right or wrong) makes a random statement like it was god's law and then doesn't explain why? This usually indicates the they either don't really know, are lying, lack the sophistication to explain or just say it because someone else told them and they never asked why either.

That's why I love this forum. Search enough and you can find an answer or ask someone if there isn't.

Now... I guess we can goto what makes the best bolt? I didn't add a poll (usually they're pointless)

Choices:

Original Steel / Zinc coated bolts (philips head)

Aluminum anodized hex (any color)

Stainless Steel Hex

Titanium (wildly expensive)

Stev-o · « **Reply #5 on:** January 02, 2011, 07:56:07 PM »

They all have a place... except for titanium, no need to go that extreme on your $800 bike!

Free Booter · « **Reply #6 on:** January 02, 2011, 07:58:32 PM »

Now I'm assuming rather than Hex Bolts, you actually got stainless steel allen screws?
YEp..Allen (hex) .

What he's really talking about is the issue of STAINLess steel against aluminum. There is a chemical reaction that occurs, again over time, and wil stick the stainless to the aluminum worse than non-stainless.

You know we all use these stainless screw kits so there must be more to the story. And that is, you should use a readily available "anti-seize" compound when installing stainless screw kits. A little on the threads, and a little under each head. As so: http://www.sacskyranch.com/antiseize.htm

Stuff reminds me of thermal paste. I wonder if anyone's ever tried that? Don't worry. I will NOT, but the stuff I use is pretty high quality and fairly expensive. I usually go with SILVER as the additive, but I have also used diamond paste on a few PC builds. Just wondering if anyone's ever done that....it would be crazy and expensive by comparison I imagine.
Probably wouldn't work as well as the Zinc I'm sure.

Free Booter · « **Reply #7 on:** January 02, 2011, 08:00:29 PM »

Quote from: Industrious Stev-o on January 02, 2011, 07:56:07 PM

They all have a place... except for titanium, no need to go that extreme on your $800 bike!

$800!? I paid $500 thank you! haHAHA

When I'm finished with it...it'll likely be closer to about $2k-3k not counting time and labor on my part. haha.

754 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 02, 2011, 08:03:43 PM »

Your buddy is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT and you should apologize fot what you said... and thank him.
When it sticks, it gets very ugly fast.. and is never a cheap or easy solution..

I kid you not, this is veru important to be aware and use Anti-Sieze..

754 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 02, 2011, 08:07:40 PM »

I was building a hub for 1080 on here, and ran in a STAINLESS BOLT (without ant-sieze), and did not even tighten it up fully.. it totally ate the threads in the part and the fastener..

If, I use them, it will never be dry, and would use anti-seize if at all possible..

Free Booter · « **Reply #10 on:** January 02, 2011, 08:23:36 PM »

Quote from: 754 on January 02, 2011, 08:03:43 PM

Your buddy is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT and you should apologize fot what you said... and thank him.
When it sticks, it gets very ugly fast.. and is never a cheap or easy solution..

I kid you not, this is veru important to be aware and use Anti-Sieze..

I absolutely will not apologize. That guy, however correct; was pompous as hell. I only edited my first post so I wouldn't appear equally as big a douche as he was. I do agree I should thank him for bringing it to my attention though! LOL

I have to just say I'm thanking everyone on this forum as well.

Kong · « **Reply #11 on:** January 03, 2011, 07:02:59 AM »

He may have been a very unpleasant fellow, but he gave you some good advice. Anyone who had ever operated a boat in salt water knows full well what happens when you use stainless fasteners with aluminum (or other various "pot metals").

If you don't use anti seize (it is very inexpensive and one small container of it will last you for years) what will happen is the aluminum will bind to the stainless steel, its always the aluminum (your very expensive case material) that will bond to the (very inexpensive) stainless screw. When you remove the screw their thread troughs will be completely filled with what used to be the male threads from your case, and no thread-restoring tap on the face of the earth will fix it, you have to heli-coil the hole to make it right.

My point is that this is indeed a serious matter but its one problem that is inexpensively avoided. Anti-sieze and Lock-tite can be your two best friends, just about every bolt and screw you use should have one or the other on it.

MCRider · « **Reply #12 on:** January 03, 2011, 07:15:33 AM »

I'd like to add two things.

First as to my opinion that its not a big deal. I'll withdraw that and say that i don't know how big of a deal it is, but if these other guys say it is, then maybe it is. In any event use anti-seize.

Second as to the Harley guy that started the whole thing, rather than saying the metal would not play nice, he should have offered the positive, saying "just remember to use anti-seize and you'll be allright". I hate it when people only offer the negative with no explanation of why, and no solution if the solution is known. Then again, maybe he didn't know the solution.

Everybody and their uncle uses the stainless allen screws sets, so people are surviving somehow.

754 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 03, 2011, 09:05:17 AM »

I prefer chomed steel or Cad-plate steel fasteners over Stainless.. Unless your bike has a lot of other stainless bits, to me the stainless fasteners look a bit out of place.
Gardner Wescott has excellent chrome bolts, but I am not sure how much they have for Honda these days..

Free Booter · « **Reply #14 on:** January 03, 2011, 10:36:43 AM »

Well have to say its got me a bit worried. Im buying the anti sieze today along with some more simple green. Im even wondering if i should just break down n buy the aluminum kit after all ...

MCRider · « **Reply #15 on:** January 03, 2011, 10:50:59 AM »

Quote from: Free Booter on January 03, 2011, 10:36:43 AM

Well have to say its got me a bit worried. Im buying the anti sieze today along with some more simple green. Im even wondering if i should just break down n buy the aluminum kit after all ...

Aluminum screws? I wouldn't. Too soft. maybe you mean plated steel? Still I wouldn't just for the bragging rights of Stainless.

A tiny brush, some anti-seize, and carry on.

Or so I think.

23tbucket · « **Reply #16 on:** January 03, 2011, 05:47:54 PM »

Just my two cents: I think the reaction between two dissimilar metals is either "Electrolysis" or "Galvanic Reaction". They are probably the same thing? I've always used stainless hardware on everything I work on..bikes, cars, etc. I have tried many different compounds on the SS threads. I now use a paste called Nikal..made by Jet Lube. I don't know if it is available outside of Canada? It is available in small 225 ml plastic containers.

http://www.jetlubecanada.com/pages/Nikal.html

Note: You can polish the stainless stuff and get a real high bright luster that will last a very long time. Not quite as shinny as chrome...but dam close......and won't rust or chip!!! You can purchase polished SS allen head bolts or you can buy the less expensive plain ones...grind or sand down the thumb screw ridges and polish away. For washers and little stuff, I use a vibratory tumbler with hard rice and some of the white polishing compound used in rock polishing. Also the SS hardware comes in different nickle content..eg, 316SS, 304SS, etc. I get the nicest finish with 316SS.

Again..just my 2 cents: Clifford

BrianAdair · « **Reply #17 on:** January 03, 2011, 06:02:25 PM »

hmm.....

Well I guess I'll be getting some anti-seize and pulling the bolts back out and coating them...... $:-\$

Yay, I love 2 steps forward, and 3 back.

Stev-o · « **Reply #18 on:** January 03, 2011, 08:04:59 PM »

Quote from: Free Booter on January 03, 2011, 10:36:43 AM

Well have to say its got me a bit worried. Im buying the anti sieze today along with some more simple green. Im even wondering if i should just break down n buy the aluminum kit after all ...

Don't sweat it, it's only a $800 project bike! Oh, I mean $500!!!

fasturd · « **Reply #19 on:** January 05, 2011, 12:22:19 PM »

One of the things I do not like about stainless and chrome hardware is way too much of it is not marked for hardness or who manufactured it. All good hardware is marked by manufacturer and it is graded 8.8 & 10.9 euro and jap and grade 5 & 8 domestically etc. Un-marked hardware can be ANY hardness and that is a little creepy for mounting forks, handlebars, fork caps, foot pegs etc. I personally stick to graded aftermarket hardware or oem stuff. Though I have to admit I love the look of chrome and polished stainless hardware...

tlbranth · « **Reply #20 on:** January 06, 2011, 10:06:10 AM »

Here's the scoop from Inox - a brit company that makes stainless motorcycle hardware. Note the type of antisieze recommended. You can buy it at NAPA.

Why is it really that important to use copper anti seize and not something else?
When stainless steel is fastened ‘dry’ into aluminium, galvanic corrosion can occur as the result of two different materials at opposite ends of the ‘metal nobility’ table being interfaced. In practical terms this means that alloy crankcases can oxidise around the fastener area very quickly. Copper based anti seize provides a third metal as the ‘sandwich’ and as copper is placed in the centre of the ‘metal nobility’ table it prevents Galvanic corrosion. Ordinary grease or oil will not work as they do not contain the vital element. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES use aluminium grease of any sort including aerosols - it will probably seriously damage the castings.

http://www.inoxgrp.co.uk/faqs.htm

xedge4lifex · « **Reply #21 on:** January 12, 2011, 02:21:25 AM »

galvanic corrosion, as its most commonly referred to in the autobody world. to unlike metals forming an oxidation coating that weakens both joined metals. i wouldnt recommend running out and getting all aluminum studs nuts and bolts for your engine. buts its probably better and lighter than that 40 year old steel

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Author Topic: Stainless vs Aluminum - Engine Hex Bolts (Read 13810 times)