Author Topic: Prepping Sprockets  (Read 624 times)

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Offline HondaMan

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Prepping Sprockets
« on: October 09, 2023, 10:24:25 am »
I've needed to update this topic here for a long time, had a chance to do one with the sandcast I'm finishing, so here goes...

All of the motorcycle sprockets we get now and not machined parts, but are injection-molded and/or sandcast pieces. This causes a pebbly finish to appear in the teeth and on the sides of the sprocket, which wears off in about 50-80 miles and ends up jammed in the drive chain. This is the #1 source of short life in chains today, particularly on the 750. While the surface of the sprockets has become much better since I first wrote this here in 2006 and in my book (Page III-C5) about the finish issues on sprockets (particularly EMGO parts), but today this issue is far more widespread due to almost 100% of sprockets now being injection-molded parts from China.

So...to get best performance, power transfer, and most importantly LONG LIFE from your drive chain, listen up, here:

1. While much better than in 2006, the grit is still there: the JT Sprockets are better than most and are what I use nowadays. See pic.
2. The grit in the teeth is the enemy. The chain rollers will knock this off and jam it into the spaces between the sides of the link rollers and the sideplates of each link: this first locks up the roller, then grinds its way into the inner bearing surface of the roller. This wears the rollers and pins, quickly, making the chain uneven and longer, very soon. To stop this, remove the grit.
3. The first step in grit removal is to apply a wirewheel to the valley in each tooth. Use a softer wirewheel, not a hard one, for fastest and smoothest results.
4. The second step is to apply that wirewheel to the side of the teeth where the chain rides onto and off from the sprocket.
5. The third step is to see how you did, and possibly reapply the first 2 steps: polish the sides of the teeth withe fine emery paper. I use 1000-1500 grit for this, as it highlights any irregularities, especially grit.
6. The final step is to clean off all the grit you loosened. Then put the sprocket on the bike.

If you take the time to do this to modern sprockets you will get close to the legendary life we saw from chains like the Diamond XL/XDL on Honda's own sprockets: I've run 2 of those chains to more than 40,000 miles, each one, with less than 1 link-length of stretch, and only replaced the countershaft sprocket with the chains: the OEM rear sprocket went over 80K miles. That was done when Honda had their sprockets hog-cut in sprocket machines: those had NO grit on their teeth, and the base circle of the sprockets were +1mm over SAE spec, creating a -1mm tip-of-tooth length. Today I simulate some of that magic by trimming off 1mm from every tooth tip (grinder): while this does not increase the base circle, it does decrease the rollers' tripping over the tooth tips on their way into and out from the sprocket, quieting them a lot and saving that lost power. Since the torque is not being applied until 2 teeth later in the rotation, this does not stress any other areas of the chain nor sprocket teeth, so the wear on the sprocket itself is much reduced, as much as 20%+. While this isn't as much reduction as the larger base circle Honda's own sprockets offered (those were more than 40% reduction), it is still much better than off-the-shelf performance.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2023, 10:27:38 am by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: Prepping Sprockets
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2023, 02:30:20 pm »
Absolutely fascinating information and solution! Thanks for all the fantastic detail. Two of my motorcycles need chains and sprockets this winter. It will take a bit longer than usual……

Curious. Would it be beneficial to clean and reinstall old chain (on new sprockets) for a few hundred miles and then install the new chain?

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Prepping Sprockets
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2023, 04:55:52 pm »
Absolutely fascinating information and solution! Thanks for all the fantastic detail. Two of my motorcycles need chains and sprockets this winter. It will take a bit longer than usual……

Curious. Would it be beneficial to clean and reinstall old chain (on new sprockets) for a few hundred miles and then install the new chain?

You're SPOT ON!  :D
In my book (and some posts here) that's exactly what I recommend. I install new sprocket(s) and run 100 miles with the old chain before installing the new one. It works perfectly, too.

While I haven't bought an EMGO sprocket in a long time, the last one I did buy looked like a sandy beach paint job (they were the worst ones at the time I wrote my book). I ran it with the old chain for just 50 miles before it jammed many links in that chain, making it tighten up so much it caused the bike's head to shake. When I took the very worn chain off the sprockets it looked like a zigzag, stuck in many places.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: Prepping Sprockets
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2023, 05:05:36 pm »
Mark…….  I’ll try that too. Wasn’t an original thought, I’ve read your book more than once, right through. Obviously some of it “stuck” somewhere!
Thanks, again. John D.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2023, 09:23:43 pm by BenelliSEI »

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: Prepping Sprockets
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2023, 04:19:24 pm »
Couldn’t resist. Prepped both sprockets for the Varadero this aft (used rainy day excuse to spend some time in the shop). Relatively simple and they look good!

Printed these few pages and added them to a three hole binder I keep updating for my +45 year old son. When I see an interesting repair or shop practice, I add it in. Whenever he’s in my shop, he flips it open to see any new additions. We usually have a discussion around it and we both get a little bit smarter. He’s busy with work, life, family and three teenagers of his own, but he always finds time to “check the book”…..
« Last Edit: October 10, 2023, 04:28:02 pm by BenelliSEI »

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Prepping Sprockets
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2023, 04:40:33 pm »
Couldn’t resist. Prepped both sprockets for the Varadero this aft (used rainy day excuse to spend some time in the shop). Relatively simple and they look good!

Printed these few pages and added them to a three hole binder I keep updating for my +45 year old son. When I see an interesting repair or shop practice, I add it in. Whenever he’s in my shop, he flips it open to see any new additions. We usually have a discussion around it and we both get a little bit smarter. He’s busy with work, life, family and three teenagers of his own, but he always finds time to “check the book”…..

A most excellent practice! We used to call this the "apprentice program" when I hired a new kid who could at least change tires, and wanted to be a bike wrench. We had a similar note-thingie: it was more like a file box with folder in it, labelled "Engine" (broken down by those we serviced), "Electrical", and "Drives " (which was chains, sprockets, tires, suspension stuff). The folders got dark and dirty from handling, but that meant they were using it. ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: Prepping Sprockets
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2023, 11:36:43 am »
Ever read “Prepare to Win “ by Carroll Smith? My second favourite book!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Prepping Sprockets
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2023, 05:10:46 pm »
Ever read “Prepare to Win “ by Carroll Smith? My second favourite book!
No: I'll look it up. :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Don R

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Re: Prepping Sprockets
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2023, 02:42:50 pm »
 I noticed some familiar sprocket talk on Facebook. Knowledge travels within the SOHC community.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Prepping Sprockets
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2023, 04:11:19 pm »
I noticed some familiar sprocket talk on Facebook. Knowledge travels within the SOHC community.
In WWII we called that 'staged communications'. A good example of it showed up in the movie "Midway".
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline spotty

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Re: Prepping Sprockets
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2023, 04:23:58 pm »
"The folders got dark and dirty from handling, but that meant they were using it."

also a handy tip when buying an old bike, if it comes with a manual, have quick flip through and see which pages/sections are covered in oily fingerprints. these could be areas the seller has been working on.

this gives you something to question him/her on, do they know what they are talking about, when was the work done, was it successful, what was the original problem and cause etc. do they have receipts for the parts
 
then when you're looking over the bike or test riding you'll know to keep an eye/ear out for lingering symptoms
i blame Terry

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Prepping Sprockets
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2023, 05:20:37 pm »
Good plan!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline MauiK3

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Re: Prepping Sprockets
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2023, 08:07:08 am »
Great information, as always.
I loved the apprenticeship program at Mare Island Naval Shipyard, it created the best machinists, welders, pipe fitters, riggers and others.
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Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: Prepping Sprockets
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2023, 06:00:14 pm »
When I was in College, I worked next door for Simpson- SEARS’ biggest catalogue order building in Canada. 1 million sq.ft. on 11 floors. They had +30 skilled trades to keep all the elevators, conveyors, sortation equipment and early computer rooms cooled and running. I ended up spending a few years working for the Plumber and Steam fitter. Both incredibly skilled tradesmen and two of the finest people I ever met. Learned as much from them as I did in school! Johnny Brickle and (believe it or not) Bert Reynolds. I’ll never forget those two gentlemen.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Prepping Sprockets
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2023, 07:32:24 pm »
While I also had some great mentors of one sort or another, 2 of them stand out to me.
Jim Chamberlain was the head wrench at my 2nd Honda shop of employment, and he was in the same college as me (Bradley) at the time, also in the NASA group, but as a Mechanical Engineer (I was in Electronics). His method of 'teaching' someone was to point out how it SHOULD be done, if it was to be done just once.

The 2nd one was my boss in the oilfield in the decade of the 1980s. I was hired because I knew electronics but also had "some mechanical" in my background: this boss, Bill James, told me just twice that if it needed doing (something for the oilfield we supported) than I was to do it. Period. I never lacked for his support nor money to get something done, all I had to do was dream it up, find someone who could help me build it, and away we went. We were 100% successful on every such venture, too.

I think that without these 2 guys in my past, I would have turned out very differently - and much more like many of the 'failed' persons I know today. They simply lacked someone to point out the things they needed to do, and nudge them to go out to do it. ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Kelly E

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Re: Prepping Sprockets
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2023, 08:54:49 pm »
One of my mentors is my buddy Barnacle Bill. I've known him since we were little. It doesn't matter what we have to do either he already knows how or we figure it out. We see things from opposite ends it seems but between us we have fixed and built all kinds of stuff. The best part is we always have fun whatever were doing. Sometimes you might need hip waders though. 8)
Never Give Up - Never Surrender

The Rust Bros. Garage Collection
1974 Honda CB 550 K0                                            1971 MGB/GT
1975 Honda CB 400F Super Sport                          1972 MGB/GT
1977 Kawasaki KZ 1000 LTD                                   1985 GMC S15
1978 Kawasaki KL 250
1980 Suzuki GS 1100E
1981 Suzuki GS 1100E
1982 Honda CB 900F Super Sport
1983 Honda CB 1100F
1984 Honda VF 700S Sabre
1984 Honda VF 1000F Interceptor
1990 Moto Guzzi 1000 Le Mans
1994 Kawasaki Concours ZG 1000A9
2005 Harley Davidson Fat Boy

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Prepping Sprockets
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2023, 07:30:34 pm »
I appreciate this sprocket information.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2023, 07:41:57 pm by grcamna2 »
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