Topic: Does anyone know anything about autobody work?

[SOHC4ever]

I picked up a '68 Mercury Park Lane convertible towards the end of last summer. I got it running pretty smooth thanks to help from TwoTired, and a reasonable shop bill. It's a real head-turner. I get plenty of compliments, and you just can't beat it on a sunny day.

I'm having some body work done on it over the winter. Locally, there aren't many body shops who are inclined to do a good job. Mostly just splash shops who make a good living doing collision repair for people who can't tell the difference between an oragepeel'd splash job and a nice show finish.

I found a guy who works out of his back yard and has enough of a reputation and portfolio for me to trust him to be able to deliver the goods. I gave up a hefty deposit and told him to get to work stripping the god-knows-how-old crap paint job off of the car and see how far that got me. As it stands, we're down to bare metal in most places and he's ready to start on body work.

At this juncture, as it has been explained to me, I have to decide whether or not I want a paint job that looks damned good from 5 feet away or, for an extra $5,000 (!) a piano finish that makes women want to take their clothes off to feel how smooth it is.

Now, I don't really think that I'm getting taken for a ride. We're talking about a lot more paint, a lot more coats, wet sanding in between each one, not to mention a flawless prep job. That's a pile of work by a skilled tradesman. My question is whether or not this is going to add value to the automobile in proportion to the cost.

I don't have dreams of being in a Barrett Jackson auction. I don't even want to sell the car. I want to drive it to the horse track with my grandma and to the drive in with my sweetheart (and to the gas station all the time). But I would like to know that I would be able to have it appraised and insured for a value that would get me another classic convertible of the same quality and vintage should something unfortunate happen.

Thanks in advance for any insight that any pros - or amateurs - can give me.

B

[MoMo]

It seems to me that it would be hard to justify an extra 5000 for paint.  The car is maybe worth 15000  tops according to NADA.  Any pics of the car?...Larry

[SOHC4ever]

Thanks for the reply.

I don't have any pictures of it the way it was when I had it out this summer, only pictures now that the paint has been stripped.

But it looks JUST LIKE this one from the original ad. Same color and everything. It's a complete car with a good interior.



I have no illusions about getting out what I put into it (monetarily), but I do want to know that I won't end up with 1/3 the value if it has to be replaced through insurance.

Some tell me that a proper paint job (perfect) on a car this size could easily run $30,000. Is that true?

[Duke McDukiedook]

Maybe with an original paint job for an ultra purist collector.

This ain't no Mopar muscle, that's for sure.

[dave500]

its a big car to paint and sand and rub back and sand and fill and sand again,an extra $5000 for a real good job is ok i think,thats done properly,door jambs,under the trunk and hood aswell,wheel arches black.

[Kong]

So its going to be painted a single color and your guy will put a paint job on it that will suffice from 5 feet away - or for an additional $5,000 he's put a paint job on it you can look at from up close?  I'd get my car out of his shop as fast as I could get a tow truck down there.  I don't know what kind of crap he's feeding you but any body shop will turn out a paint job that can withstand scrutiny from as close as you care to get.  Getting them straight and flat is part of any normal repair work done by a competent shop, not something exceptional.  I'd look for someone else, and I say that as a "Backyard painter" myself.

Oh, and with modern paints there is no sanding between coats; you sand in prep and if you aren't able to get a good finish off the gun you sand (cut and buff) after the clear sets up, but there's no sanding between coats, unless he means he's going to flow coat  the thing and then cut and buff it, which certainly shouldn't cost you an additional five grand.

Just my opinion of course, but I'd run - Oh, after i got him to shoot a couple of coats of epoxy over the thing.  Protect the metal, you've got to protect the metal.

[Roach]

well my buddies dad paid 20,000 for his paintjob on his 67 GTX mind you if this car ever made it to barret jackson auctions it would easly get over 180,000. its got a hemi

[Nikkisixx]

DUDE!  That equates to 50 hours at $100 an hour.  Is that car the size of a house?  It shouldn't take a pro (the kind that charges $100 an hour) that long to do the whole damn job to a nice finish. 

[my78k]

Well, you don't really say how much you have into it now. As I read it he said it would be an extra 5k for the extra finish....so without prying for all the details I would say not to spend the extra money.

I don't feel you are getting hosed, I do feel if you want a car to be a decent fun car then spending that kind of money on the paint may add value but WILL detract form your fun factor of owning it! You will agonize over ANY little scratch, rock etc etc...and forget parking it at the track with all those other car doors waiting for the chance to ding ya!

Get a decent coat of paint on it and enjoy the hell out of it!

MOST appraisors wouldn't mark the value up enough to cover it from an insurance standpoint.

I know with my Dart that I'm working on I want it to look good but I do plan on enjoying it and can't imagine spending all my time buffing and waxing.

Dennis

[Roach]

well my buddies dad paid 20,000 for his paintjob on his 67 GTX mind you if this car ever made it to barret jackson auctions it would easly get over 180,000. its got a hemi

ps. they didn't just paint what you can see. they painted the frame, the body the every inch of it. mind you these are canadian prices i dont know what the market is like in the states.

[Retro Rocket]

The extra time and money goes into the preparation and its easy to throw an extra 5 grand at a paint job, especially if the car is black.
He isn't trying to hose you, he has offered to give you a show quality job and told you the price, its just an option, you don't have to take it. There are panel beaters and there are REAL panel beaters. Have a look at some of his work first, that will be a good measure of his work. For a top notch paint job, everything comes off including the engine......You know the old saying, "you pay peanuts, you get monkeys".....

Mick

[754]

 Nikk, is paint free in your neck of the woods? I do know it and materials have gone way up in the last few decades...

 I lot of painters here wont do a nice job on a bike for 1/2 of that 5k..

[Nikkisixx]

Nikk, is paint free in your neck of the woods? I do know it and materials have gone way up in the last few decades...

  lot of painters here wont do a nice job on a bike for 1/2 of that 5k..

I based my opinion on personal experience and what I see as a reasonable hourly rate.  OP said AN EXTRA $5,000 - in addition too how much?

The last car I painted my wife's beetle last year.  I used yellow (one of the most expensive colors) and I used DuPont products (professional stuff I get good results with).   Sanded to bare metal, primed with etching primer, epoxy primer, and high build primer.  Wet sanded,then base coat and clear coat.  Including disposables and materials it cost about $1000. 

It took me about 60 hours working nights and weekends, another 10 to wet sand and buff the clear.  And I'm slow.  The guy is working in his back yard so he shouldn't have a lot of overhead like extra employees, or a new booth and equipment to pay off. F@#k man, I know lawyers that don't get $100 and hour!

[754]

I am thinking.. the Parklane is a lot bigger, and has a few things that add time, like trim on the sides, that the beetle may not have..
 I know a good painter here, is doing a 30s ford truck for a guy.. as a period 70s rod.. it came as a barn fresh 70s rod.. I think its probably at 15K + now and that is in a backyard shop.. by someone with a good reputation..
 I know the painter, and the owner, and I am pretty sure it will be very nice when it is soon finished..

 Sometimes you get what you pay for, pretty hard to get good fitup, and a wrinkle free body for cheap these days..

[6pkrunner]

Body and paint work on a car bear no relationship to reality in the least. $5000 is peanuts in the automotive body world. That body would have to be in very good condition and need very minimal prep work prior to painting for $5K. Most decent jobs (for restored collector cars) is now in the $9,000 to $14,000 range. To get into serious sheet metal work the price jumps to the $20,000 to $25,000 range.

Hard to justify for a daily driver.

[Roach]

hard to justify for a daily driver yes... but lots of people put years and years into there hot rods or restoring so why not make it the best you can.

mind you these paint jobs are far better then your stock one you get when you buy the car.

[Nikkisixx]

It's a real head-turner. I get plenty of compliments, and you just can't beat it on a sunny day.

At this juncture, as it has been explained to me, I have to decide whether or not I want a paint job that looks damned good from 5 feet away or, for an extra $5,000 (!) a piano finish that makes women want to take their clothes off to feel how smooth it is.

A head turner (as I understand it) doesn't need a crapload of work.  Besides that, it is the EXTRA $5000 that sets off my bullsh@t meter.  Furthermore, I'm not saying "I know a guy that did this that or the other".  Piss on hearsay.  If you personally know what it takes, how much effort, and the cost of materials having done it yourself - chime in.

[Retro Rocket]

It's a real head-turner. I get plenty of compliments, and you just can't beat it on a sunny day.

At this juncture, as it has been explained to me, I have to decide whether or not I want a paint job that looks damned good from 5 feet away or, for an extra $5,000 (!) a piano finish that makes women want to take their clothes off to feel how smooth it is.

A head turner (as I understand it) doesn't need a crapload of work.  Besides that, it is the EXTRA $5000 that sets off my bullsh@t meter.  Furthermore, I'm not saying "I know a guy that did this that or the other".  Piss on hearsay.  If you personally know what it takes, how much effort, and the cost of materials having done it yourself - chime in.

Head turner or not it obviously needs painting, and comparing your work on a beetle to this land barge is a waste of time. There would be twice as much or more work and area on the Mercury so double at least everything you have said. Not to mention that he will also find someone elses handy work under the old paint as well because in all the years i have been building cars and bikes there is rarely a car of that age that has escaped the panel shop. You also forgot that even if this guy is a back yard operator {and very good apparently} he still has had to buy his equipment, use his own power and he would have to have a reasonably good booth, all of that costs money....Starting to add up isn't it. I paint for a living, everything from cars, boats to 10,000 square metre epoxy floors and everything in between....Great panel beater spray painters are few and far between, if he's good expect to pay for it....

Mick

[Don R]

I always judged value compared to the ratio of what I make VS what I'm paying. If I need to shell out 6 months pay for something maybe not but a few weeks pay, OK. I bought a hi buck paint job once, they used the wrong materials and 20 years later it's still popping off. Too cheap to paint it right now. Hopefully they have shown you examples of their work.

[754]

Lets just imagine here..
 60s ragtop, good runner, you are thinking of bucking up to paint it..
 So say you have 6-10 K in it, and can get it looking a lot nicer for another say 7K..
 And you use it all summer, family loves it, wifes likes to drive it everyday.. on a warm summer evening you cruise around .. and really enjoy it.
 Sorta fun, isnt it..?

 Can you buy  anything new for under 20K that will do that? Will it hold its value.(I am pretty sure, the 60s ragtop will hold value better than new car) Can you afford to doll it up? Will it be worth it?.. only you can decide..

 Some of the answers on here, seem to more reflect wether the poster answering would do that themselves, not is it a good idea..or worth it..

 There is a difference between coloring a car, and one that everytime your eyes see it.. you go,..OOOHHH YEAH..!! not to mention everyone else drooling over it either....
 

[Nikkisixx]

Can you buy  anything new for under 20K that will do that? Will it hold its value.(I am pretty sure, the 60s ragtop will hold value better than new car) Can you afford to doll it up? Will it be worth it?.. only you can decide..

I totaly agree.  It is worth to him what it is worth to him. 

[dave500]

ill be getting a quote shortly on a repaint and some rust repairs on my daily driver ive had for 26 years,its an old 1973 holden,my neighbour who is into hotrods directed me to a guy who has a custom shop,"made you look customs",,ive spoken to him and he still has to see the car,im planning on up to $5000 for doing only the outside nicley,i think im in for a shock,ill post back after he sees the car.

[SOHC4ever]

Thanks to everyone for all of your insight. I think this is just what I needed.

By way of background, this is a backyard shop, but it's sophisticated and employs several people all of whom are professionals with plenty of credibility. As I mentioned before, that type of thing is hard to find in Vancouver. I imagine that southern cal, for example, has good custom shops on every street corner. Here, it's dent repair and insurance claims and get-it-the-hell-out-of-here as quick as you can. These guys have an impressive portfolio of show cars.

At the end of the day I'm going to have 15,000 in paint and body on this thing. That will include a whole lot of cutting and welding (to get rid of the beginnings of rust) some professional straightening, undercoating, primer, epoxy, etc, and a piano-finish paint job in the same red that you saw above. They're working around a lot of previous hack jobs and are warrantying their work (won't fade or pimple or whatever).

Yes, it's a lot of bread. It's also a lot of work on a big automobile. Most importantly, for the first time in my life: I can afford it.

If I sunk 30K into a new mustang tomorrow, I'd be lucky to get back 10k in 3 years when it's no longer cool, because that's 3 years ago's mustang. In any case, 754 is right: it's not about the money. It's about having a DOPE RIDE.

Points about driveability of a showroom-type job are well taken, though.

Many thanks to everyone who chimed in. I'll put up some pics when I get 'em.

[SOHC4ever]

It's a real head-turner. I get plenty of compliments, and you just can't beat it on a sunny day.

At this juncture, as it has been explained to me, I have to decide whether or not I want a paint job that looks damned good from 5 feet away or, for an extra $5,000 (!) a piano finish that makes women want to take their clothes off to feel how smooth it is.

A head turner (as I understand it) doesn't need a crapload of work.  Besides that, it is the EXTRA $5000 that sets off my bullsh@t meter.  Furthermore, I'm not saying "I know a guy that did this that or the other".  Piss on hearsay.  If you personally know what it takes, how much effort, and the cost of materials having done it yourself - chime in.

Well, it turns heads, alright. But not because of the paint. It's a cool old rag, the kind of thing that you don't see too often. I get plenty of waves and thumbs up and comments.

It wasn't an ugly ass bondo'd up job with rust spots and major dents, but it did have scratches and pimples coming through. Somebody had keyed the back right qp, and there was rust starting up behind the wheels. It wasn't getting any better, so I figured that I'd have it worked on.

If I had a shop, I could have made this a lot cheaper on my self by doing much of the prep-work, taking the chrome off, etc. But I don't, and that's that.

Thanks again for insight.

[dave500]

yeah i drive my old car everyday everywhere,throw junk in the trunk,dog jumps in the window etc(thatll have to stop),i dont want to panic about car parks and smudges,i cant see myself driving any other car though,like save this old one and buy a ten year old hack,i wouldnt get any respect on the road!

[dave500]

ill be getting a quote shortly on a repaint and some rust repairs on my daily driver ive had for 26 years,its an old 1973 holden,my neighbour who is into hotrods directed me to a guy who has a custom shop,"made you look customs",,ive spoken to him and he still has to see the car,im planning on up to $5000 for doing only the outside nicley,i think im in for a shock,ill post back after he sees the car.

ok i drove over and saw the fella,hes going to repair properly some rusted areas and repaint the entire car,the windscreen will have to come out,one door and the hood stripped,$5600,im pretty happy with that,ill post close ups of the rusted areas.

[dave500]

it goes in next wednesday,ill be riding the 500 for about three weeks,i aint got no problem with that,except i mostly bring home stuff every couple of days i find doing my job(skip bin truck driver)including scrap wire/plumbing copper and brass i recycle.



        under winderscreen area,common on these cars to go there,i had this done about twelve years ago by a not so good panel beater,live and learn.



  worst of the doors,ill post the finished outcome in a few weeks,i drive this thing every day and have had it for 26 years,im nervous of it being some where else at night.

[dave500]

its been at the shop for over a week now and i havent bothered them,i rode over today(saturday) and its in the booth already ready for painting on monday,he wants to know the colour number of my 500,its a flake sunrise orange or what ever copied by eye and the painter loves it!,anyway its looking good,this is only a rust repair and respray not square up panels etc,if this gets me by for another fifteen years ill be happy, when i retire and win the lottery at the same time itll get the whole thing done better than ever,this is its third respray since ive had it,three windscreens,second motor still(i built it)third differential,five gearboxes(auto trimatic,i think in the states its a "turbo 180?"this ones beefed right up),umpteen brake pads and other wear items you dont count,this is proof if you look after and care for anything mechanical it WILL last forever.,this car might owe me now over the 26 years ive driven it about $15,000 dollars,i paid two thousand for it in about 89?,in that time my friends and parents etc have been through about five cars each losing money on everyone of them,anyway as per the original post this is a $5000 dollar paint job with rust repairs.



this has had all proper welded repairs.

[dave500]

all done $5300 bucks,i think this was good value,im really pleased,it looks so much better now.

[MoMo]

worth the wait,  looks really good and I have always liked that color-similar to the old Corvette Sebring Blue....Larry

[dave500]

the factory name was cyan blue,he just matched it from a colour chart.

[dave500]

just out of interest the shop gave me a disc with photos of the during rust repair stage,heres a couple,i cant do body work,i think my money was well spent when you look at the work involved.




             a previous dodgy repair i had done,bondorama,we used repro panels for this area this time.

[Tom]

Thanks for the reply.

I don't have any pictures of it the way it was when I had it out this summer, only pictures now that the paint has been stripped.

But it looks JUST LIKE this one from the original ad. Same color and everything. It's a complete car with a good interior.



I have no illusions about getting out what I put into it (monetarily), but I do want to know that I won't end up with 1/3 the value if it has to be replaced through insurance.

Some tell me that a proper paint job (perfect) on a car this size could easily run $30,000. Is that true?

SOHC4ever, you may be interested in my experence. I always wanted a '68 firebird 400 ragtop, I got my chance to buy one in 1979.
 I drove it and enjoyed it for years and in 1987 i decided to do a number on it, frame off full rebuild and repaint, Like you i shopped around and got quoted telephone numbers... then i came across a couple of guys working from a shed they had a good setup not flash but a nice booth and they talked me into the new two pack paint, i looked at some of there work and it was good, So i said the job is yours, the paint job cost me $4k at the time, more than what i had paid for the car. And more than i could afford at the time, but here we are near 25 years later and the paint is still fairly sharp, I still love the car, and i think its cool, And alot of FUN to drive, most people give you the thumbs up with a smile all worth it, and if i was counting it would be worth more than i have spent My advise to you is this,
Get a good decent paint job on a solid body, the rest can be fixed later, and enjoy your cool car, They sure dont build them like that anymore. Tom