Author Topic: Slipper Dry Clutch  (Read 22555 times)

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Offline mec

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Slipper Dry Clutch
« on: January 14, 2011, 09:47:47 AM »
hello friends,

caution:
this is a project and i do not know, wether i will succeed or wether i will fail. maybe i will loose my interest during the building process? who knows what the future brings?


the history behind this project:
it was in the mid 70ties when I started my "bike career". first bike was a 2 stroke 3cyl 350ccm kawasaki followed by a sohc 750 honda. it took not long and I visited some race tracks in our country, preped my sohc for racing and was often found at the track as a competitor or as a visitor as well.
it was the epoche of all the 2 stroke TZs, later Rgs, in the beginnings some 3 cyl kawas. but one thing was obvious: when you wanted to be member of the serious racers, when you wanted to be really fast, you had to have a clattering dry clutch. a wet clutch was for the hobbiists, a dry clutch for the winners.

later, 4 stroke racing became popular. even there the above mentioned rules didn´t change. the RCB was maybe the most famous one, a winners bike, dry clutch. i do not know, how often honda took the endurance WC titel. but when honda was beaten by the winning GSXR, they had dry clutches as well.
this time I ordered a complete factory kit from honda with all the goodies for my bol d´or: pistons, conrods, crankshaft, camshafts, transmission, dry sump and dry clutch conversion. i will never forget this technical jewel.


theoretical stuff:

nowadays i play with my sohc. some of you know, that i do have two modified engines running. one of them i am converting to a dry clutch.
the plan is: because this is really a lot of work, i do not want to add an old fashioned dry clutch, as it has been used 30 years ago. no, i want it all (or nothing): the dry clutch conversion must have a slipper option as it is used in modern MotoGP bikes. if one will use the slipper option can be decided by the user.

my first thoughts went in the direction to voxonda, how already has a dry clutch running, but without slipper option (as far as i know). second thought was of ducati. they are using dry clutches for many years, for their race bike, as well as for their street legal stuff. unnecessarily i bought a second hand STM slipper clutch for the 1098er series. this was the wrong one, because their max diameter of 155mm was a tiny bit too large. next thing i recognized, the rotary direction makes a big difference. not critical with a non slipper clutch, but essential with a slipper one. i do not want to have the slipper effect under accelerating :) . what to do? i searched all day long, but didnt find a clutch rotating clockwise (right side mounted). all the new bikes do have a gear driven primary, our sohc is chain driven resulting in a viceversa rotation direction. next thought: for a slipperfunction the clutch uses ramps (back plate) and steel balls. either i can machine a mirror back plate myself (?) or i can find a producer how can make a "mirror back plate".

i first sent an inquiry to ? (have forgotten the manufacturer :) ) . no response. the company is not flexible enough or willing to answer my questions. next on my list: suter clutch, switzerland. suter technology is well known in racing, they provide half of the Moto2 field with excellent racing chassis (2010 Moto2 constructors champion). the complete field race their suter clutches. suter is on the winning list in MotoGP as in SBK championship too.
my inquiry to suter was answered the same day: there exists a 138mm slipper clutch for the 748 to 1100ccm ducati. it is easy to reverse the slipper effect by reversing the back plate, was the answer. this problem seems to be solved.
but: how about an external starter, paddock starter? the slipper mechanism will inhibit a starting procedure by slipping the clutch.
suter sent me drawings from their clutch. a close up view showed me a "rack element set (for bikes without starter)". this 3 heels function by centrifugal forces. the clutch standing still, the heels inhibit the slipper effect. the clutch rotating, the heels give free the slipper mechanism. viola, all what i need!!


practical stuff:

at the moment i am taking measurements from the primary drive, oem clutch, transmission main shaft, crankcase. this measurements will be put in a simple corel draw drawing. currently i see the need for a longer main shaft. something like a clutch hub fitting on the primary has to be machined too. all the aluminium covers will be easy to do (hopefully) and will be done by myself.


thats all for now.

see you
mec
Honda Monkey
Takeuchi TB 070
Massey Ferguson

Offline jaguar

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Re: Slipper Dry Clutch
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2011, 10:04:36 AM »
this should be fun

Offline noahspop

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Re: Slipper Dry Clutch
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2011, 01:17:47 PM »
I'll admit its a bit over my head, being a newbie and all, but I'll stick around for the show.

Offline Tintop

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Re: Slipper Dry Clutch
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2011, 04:06:19 PM »
Wow MEC, another great project. :o  Will be keeping an eye on your progress.
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline Slams77

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Re: Slipper Dry Clutch
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2011, 09:31:24 PM »
Loud Clutches Save Lives!  I always think of how nice it would be to have one on my CB400F.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 10:23:27 PM by Slams77 »

Offline mec

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Re: Slipper Dry Clutch
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2011, 10:08:13 AM »
Loud Clutches Save Lives!  I always think of how nice it would be to have one on my CB400F.

maybe there is a chance to adapt this one?: http://www.novaracing.co.uk/honda-cb450-dry-clutch.htm


episode 2:

in the meantime i had a meeting with an CNC machinist. he is spezialised in the making of transmissions, gearing a.s.o.
the good news are: everything is possible, its doable. but: all changes had to been brought to computer. it will take a lot of time to take all measurements and make the drawings. all drawings have to be accurate/correct in all dimensions. so we can see, if the stuff will function properly and we can proceed to machine all the parts necessary. cause the primary shaft with its first gear has to be done new, the corresponding 1st gear wheel has to be machined too. probably this is a chance to fabricate the first gear longer, bringing it closer to a racing transmission?!

with that conclusion i ordered one slipper clutch. there are bad news from suter however: the rack element set is not available for my counter rotating clutch. roger, from suter engineering, believes that it will be possible to start the engine with an external starter, despite this fact. the secondary spring (responsable for the slipper effect) must not be the softest one, however.

at the moment i am working on the clutch cover.
pics will follow.


to be continued

mec
Honda Monkey
Takeuchi TB 070
Massey Ferguson

Offline 754

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Re: Slipper Dry Clutch
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2011, 10:21:29 AM »
Dragbike external starters fit on the crank end, and should start it..
 Were you thinking roller starting?
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Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline mec

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Re: Slipper Dry Clutch
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2011, 02:55:22 AM »
Dragbike external starters fit on the crank end, and should start it..
 Were you thinking roller starting?

hello,

as postet in another thread, i am using the starter in the picture below.

some more work has been done.
first i started to take measurements from the clutch cover. to see, if these numbers are accurate, i did a dummy cover from plywood.
next step was machining the parts from aluminium. some parts are with oversize wall thickness. this gives a chance to vary the measurements a little bit and there is enough room for saving weight too. welding together all these parts cant be done before i receive the clutch.

mec
Honda Monkey
Takeuchi TB 070
Massey Ferguson

Offline mec

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Re: Slipper Dry Clutch
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2011, 03:02:44 AM »
to visualise all the alterations, i did an aluminium dummy transmission shaft on the lathe. this way i can see clearly all the necessary changes in longitudinal dimension that have to be done. a hub for the outer clutch basket was be done the same way. the longer hub is necessary to position a shaft seal.

mec
Honda Monkey
Takeuchi TB 070
Massey Ferguson

Offline mec

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Re: Slipper Dry Clutch
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2011, 04:07:02 AM »
the honda GL 1000 has a primary drive that fits well to this projekt. it is wider, the outer toothed shaft section is 34mm compared to the 24mm of our sohc. this helps to find room for the small rubber shaft seal. the small gear for the oil pump drive is from our sohc unit. i separated the basket-hub from the basket, recut further everything so that the gear remained. this gear is 13.5mm wide at this moment. maybe it will be done a little smaler when i have gotten the clutch parts (so that i can see the real axial dimensions).
as can be seen in the pics, the gl 1000 primary had to be grinded smaller so that it fits into the sohc cases. one needle bearing seat and the big outer bearing seat had to be adapted.

more to come.

mec
Honda Monkey
Takeuchi TB 070
Massey Ferguson

Offline Tintop

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Re: Slipper Dry Clutch
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2011, 07:49:00 AM »
great work Mec, your machining skills are awsome.
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline jaguar

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Re: Slipper Dry Clutch
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2011, 04:57:51 PM »
looking good.

i always love these projects.

Offline mec

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Re: Slipper Dry Clutch
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2011, 10:57:28 AM »
bad news and good news:

life can be so cruel. four days ago, my teammate, racer friend, best friend Klaus died in a car accident. RIP Klaus, will never forget you.


slipper clutch:
after an endless waiting, today the package arrieved. however, there is the correct backplate missing. i had a look at the various parts and was not able to understand how the slipper effect is done. i believe the miracle will be solved when the missing part will come. it was according to our agreement that the custom parts will be delivered some weeks later.

more to come.

mec


Honda Monkey
Takeuchi TB 070
Massey Ferguson

Offline voxonda

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Re: Slipper Dry Clutch
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2011, 12:53:43 PM »
Hello mec,

My sincere condoleances. Have lost some friends/loved ones too along the way.
R.I.P Klaus

Rob
Better sorry for failing then for the lack of trying.

Offline mec

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Re: Slipper Dry Clutch
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2011, 05:07:27 AM »
thanks rob for your condolences.

i did some measurements and was surprised that the clutch had an outer diameter of 143mm. according to the mails from suter i should have received a smaller clutch with 137.5mm. never mind, the 143mm clutch fits well into the cases and the custom made clutch cover.
the clutch cover is made from 4 pieces, welded together and afterwards milled to correct dimensions for the oil seals.
furthermore i made a dummy clutch basket hub out of simple aluminium and brought the dummy-alu transmission shaft to correct length.
day after day i am understanding the complicated slipper mechanism more and more. it seems that there is only the viceversa rampinsert missing. this part will be screwed to the backplate.
unfortunately one steel disk is bent. i am hoping that a new faultless will arrive with the ramp insert.

one photo shows the removing of alu from the cases for a better fit of the cover.

mec
Honda Monkey
Takeuchi TB 070
Massey Ferguson

Offline wannabridin

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Re: Slipper Dry Clutch
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2011, 08:59:35 PM »
SUCH great craftsmanship!!  whenever you post something, it's like gold up here!!  good work on this build, i can't wait to see/hear it when it's done!! 
1976 CB750K, currently under construction:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=64468.0

-And if you don't do it this year, you'll be one year older when you do...

Offline jaguar

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Re: Slipper Dry Clutch
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2011, 12:33:39 PM »
how is it working?

Offline mec

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Re: Slipper Dry Clutch
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2011, 05:59:33 AM »
hello,

at the moment i am still waiting for the ramp insert.
phone calls made clear, this bent steel plate is intentionally. it will make engaging the clutch smoother, the start from cero mph will be smoother.

another chance I see: I think it will be possible to adapt the rack element set. in order to make the heels function properly, I will have to reposition some 4mm holes, mill the backside of the inner clutch basket and remove some material from the inner clutch basket. because all of these changes can be done without removing the engine from the bike, I will probably wait and will see if the slipper clutch functions with the paddock starter working.

ad pics:
another welcome find: i see similarities of the clutch in valentinos bike and mine :)
suter told me, that my clutch is nearly the same as the clutch working in the duc MotoGP.

btw: a troublefree saisonopening looks different.

mec
Honda Monkey
Takeuchi TB 070
Massey Ferguson

Offline Syscrush

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Re: Slipper Dry Clutch
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2011, 10:11:48 AM »
at the moment i am still waiting for the ramp insert.
phone calls made clear, this bent steel plate is intentionally. it will make engaging the clutch smoother, the start from cero mph will be smoother.
That makes sense, but please tell me that it doesn't reduce the sound of plates clanging around when you've got the clutch disengaged!
Life is precious: wear your f'n helmet!
There's nothing more expensive than a free bike...
FWIW, I'm not a shill for Race Tech - I've just got a thing for good suspension and the RTCE's are the most cost-effective mod for these old damping rod front ends.

Offline mec

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Re: Slipper Dry Clutch
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2011, 12:34:02 PM »
cant wait to hear the sound of this dry clutch. but it will need more patience.
according to suter, it will take once again a week to be shipped the missing parts.

in the meantime there was time to work on the clutch lifter mechanism.

first i planned to machine a very simple clutch lifter the way i found in my honda monkey (with chinese 120ccm engine). its the same that worked on my earlier Puch MC50 bike. the bigger Puch bikes use this as well as some yamaha modells do (an example: http://i21.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/bc/77/408b_1.JPG ).
but i had a better idea: i tried to use the stock 750sohc parts. there was one difficulty however. it is necessary to pull the clutch, instead of push as it is done in our sohc fours. there were two ways to go: neither i machine all the parts from alu 7075, or i use the stock lifter plate and modify it to suit including cutting, welding, milling). i decided for the more complicated way and made the parts from alu. only the 3 steel balls are stock.

my little cnc mill machined the outer "spider cover".

will this setup will work properly and give good feeling at the clutch lever? who knows? but it will be easy to do some upgrades later e.g. modify the lifter mechanism a.s.o.

mec
Honda Monkey
Takeuchi TB 070
Massey Ferguson

Offline Flying J

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Re: Slipper Dry Clutch
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2011, 02:23:26 PM »
Absolutely incredible. :o :o

Offline Tintop

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Re: Slipper Dry Clutch
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2011, 02:34:14 PM »
very nice mec.
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline wannabridin

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Re: Slipper Dry Clutch
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2011, 08:09:32 AM »
Awesome work mec!!!  Looks great!  So will this be for sale for any of the racers on here?
1976 CB750K, currently under construction:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=64468.0

-And if you don't do it this year, you'll be one year older when you do...

Offline mec

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Re: Slipper Dry Clutch
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2011, 02:53:33 AM »
hi,

there are no plans to make a conversion kit for our sohc´s. but i am sure, when there is a will, there will be a way.

my opinion: this question is self answering when i will give some infos on the cost of this upgrade. the time has not come yet, to calculate the overall costs of this project however. all i know is, that i spent 2500€ for the slipper clutch alone. all the transmission work that will have to be done, will add another 3000€*. all that, without the engine covers, the GL1000 primary drive, and other minor modifications....

thats not cheap at all. and therefore the interest in this mod will be selflimiting. isn´t it?

mec

*) another set of the transmission shaft including a first gear wheel and a clutch hub, will be considerable cheaper, because the time consuming drawings will have be done only once.
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Offline mec

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Re: Slipper Dry Clutch
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2011, 11:20:58 AM »
an update:

in the meantime all clutch related parts arrived.
the ramps are made of steel, 3 inserts with varying degrees (32.5°, 35°, 37.5°). in combination with the 6 secondary slipper springs there are many possibilities to fine tune the system.

with all the fabricated dummy parts, i assembled the clutch system to find out, that my spider cover (8mm, made from 7075 alu) is a bit too gracile. it bends when disengaging the clutch. i tried this with the 1300N clutch spring, this is the second softest one. all in all the spider cover works, but i am not sure, if it will do with a stronger spring. furthermore i doubt if this setup will give a good clutch lever feeling.

tomorrow my cnc mill will do another cover, made of 12mm alu and tapered.

i am hoping to have my second rendezvous with my gear fabricator this week to have all the transmission parts done soon.

mec
Honda Monkey
Takeuchi TB 070
Massey Ferguson